Spoilers Tech issue with 1x06

[marsh8472]

It seems like you managed to stumble upon a point the rest of us have been trying to get you to see since the beginning of the week. Progress!

Now would it be too much to ask you to consider that Farpoint, Relics, and Flashback had somewhat ambiguous lines about "holodecks" as well? That perhaps they could have meant something other than "any and all forms of rooms with virtual environments that have ever existed"?

I don't need the dialogue to question holodecks on Discovery. Holograms weren't ever mentioned in the original series. Pike never mentioned the possibility of being in a rec room or holodeck in "the cage" when presented with illusions. Or from episode "Shore Leave" they kept talking about how Alice, the white rabbit, etc.. couldn't possibly exist. The possibility of holographic technology never comes up. They examine the possibility holograms being the source of illusions in TNG era episodes though.

 

[Ithekro]

The things in "The Cage" wouldn't appear to be holograms Pike would know of and thus he wouldn't jump to that conclusion based on Starfleet's much less advanced holographic technology What he was seeing was too real to be a hologram from his understanding.

Shore Leave takes place outdoors. Federation experience with holographic technology likely requires it to be inside a structure or at the very least, outside of direct sunlight to preserve the illusion. It was also found the things were mechanical later on anyway.

Kirk and company do encounter real or nearly real holograms during the Five Year Mission. They are amazed that there is no viable projector and about the clarity of the image, not that it exists. A later one could interact with the crew, kill them and sabotaged the Enterprise (Losira)

By TNG era (a hundred years later) holographic design and encounters with other races have proven that holograms can be seen outdoors and be basically real.

 

[marsh8472]

The things in "The Cage" wouldn't appear to be holograms Pike would know of and thus he wouldn't jump to that conclusion based on Starfleet's much less advanced holographic technology What he was seeing was too real to be a hologram from his understanding.

Shore Leave takes place outdoors. Federation experience with holographic technology likely requires it to be inside a structure or at the very least, outside of direct sunlight to preserve the illusion. It was also found the things were mechanical later on anyway.

Kirk and company do encounter real or nearly real holograms during the Five Year Mission. They are amazed that there is no viable projector and about the clarity of the image, not that it exists. A later one could interact with the crew, kill them and sabotaged the Enterprise (Losira)

By TNG era (a hundred years later) holographic design and encounters with other races have proven that holograms can be seen outdoors and be basically real.

In the Discovery holodeck they appeared to be on a klingon ship outside of the holodeck. Pike's experience in starfleet should have exposed him to the possibility of that kind of technology if it existed

From "Spectre Of The Gun"
SPOCK: Exactly. Doctor, in your opinion, what killed Mister Chekov?
MCCOY: A piece of lead in his body.
SPOCK: Wrong. His mind killed him.
MCCOY: Come on, Spock. If you've got the answer, tell us.
SPOCK: Physical reality is consistent with universal laws. Where the laws do not operate, there is no reality. All of this is unreal.
MCCOY: What do you mean unreal? I examined Chekov. He's dead.
SPOCK: But you made your examination under conditions which we cannot trust. We judge reality by the response of our senses. Once we are convinced of the reality of a given situation, we abide by its rules. We judged the bullets to be solid, the guns to be real, therefore they can kill.
KIRK: Chekov is dead because he believed the bullets would kill him.


They assume beliefs in the reality causes the illusions to be harmful without considering that they may be in a holographic environment that doesn't have to appear to obey physical laws and can still harm them regardless of what they believed.

 

[zar]

I don't need the dialogue to question holodecks on Discovery. Holograms weren't ever mentioned in the original series. Pike never mentioned the possibility of being in a rec room or holodeck in "the cage" when presented with illusions. Or from episode "Shore Leave" they kept talking about how Alice, the white rabbit, etc.. couldn't possibly exist. The possibility of holographic technology never comes up. They examine the possibility holograms being the source of illusions in TNG era episodes though.

First, "they weren't mentioned" is an argument from ignorance. It's meaningless.

Second, our characters clearly did know holo-tech is possible.

- Who Mourns for Adonais. Giant green hand.
KIRK: A trick, then? A projection?

- Return of the Archons. Landru hologram.

- Aforementioned ENT references.

Third, for the umpteenth time, not all hologram-like tech is equal to TNG holodecks. The holodecks could be physically interactive and actually fool people, which is not the case in DSC. Again and again the concept of incremental advances completely escapes you. Everything we've seen is completely consistent with TOS. There is no contradiction.

In the above cases, even if Spock wasn't there to scan and state the obvious, Kirk would have figured out he was looking at fakes because they weren't tangible. In the TNG era they don't have that luxury, and they know it. But Kirk and Pike aren't living in the TNG era, so when Pike sits down and experiences what seems to be an actual picnic, or when Kirk finds physical bullets in Spectre, of course they aren't going to suspect holo-tech, which to them is still glorified video games.

 

[Tuskin38]

This thread is just going in a loop, just stop responding to Marsh.

They’re never going to change their mind.

They’re baiting you to respond.

 

[marsh8472]

First, "they weren't mentioned" is an argument from ignorance. It's meaningless.

Second, our characters clearly did know holo-tech is possible.

- Who Mourns for Adonais. Giant green hand.
KIRK: A trick, then? A projection?

- Return of the Archons. Landru hologram.

- Aforementioned ENT references.

Third, for the umpteenth time, not all hologram-like tech is equal to TNG holodecks. The holodecks could be physically interactive and actually fool people, which is not the case in DSC. Again and again the concept of incremental advances completely escapes you. Everything we've seen is completely consistent with TOS. There is no contradiction.

In the above cases, even if Spock wasn't there to scan and state the obvious, Kirk would have figured out he was looking at fakes because they weren't tangible. In the TNG era they don't have that luxury, and they know it. But Kirk and Pike aren't living in the TNG era, so when Pike sits down and experiences what seems to be an actual picnic, or when Kirk finds physical bullets in Spectre, of course they aren't going to suspect holo-tech, which to them is still glorified video games.

Not an argument from ignorance, a display of ignorance on their part which is consistent with holodecks not existing in the federation yet. The idea of an entire environment being a holographic recreation just never occurs to them. And yet we see it in Discovery, non-transparent at that.

From "The Mark of Gideon"
KIRK: If it works.
(uses a manual override, and the shutters slide open to reveal faces which are then replaced by a starfield.)
ODONA: People. The faces of people. And then the stars. What's happening? What's out there? The sound is gone.
KIRK: It was like the heartbeat of all those people, and thousands upon thousands more pressing against the ship.
ODONA: But you said we were moving through space.
KIRK: Yes, I said that.
ODONA: Then the people can't be out there.
KIRK: Yes, they can.
ODONA: Please don't frighten me.
KIRK: It could be a mirage. They could exist in our minds.
ODONA: You mean that we're going mad.
KIRK: Or some power is creating the illusion in our minds that we are somewhere near your planet. But why?
ODONA: I don't know. I don't know.

Mirages, mind control, are possibilities but not holograms. Just like in "the cage".

Fast forward to DS9 "Things Past"
SISKO: This is Terok Nor. DS Nine during the occupation.
DAX: Time travel?
GARAK: No, it's more than that. Our clothes have changed.
ODO: Could we be in a holosuite?
SISKO: Computer, end programme. Let's assume that's a no for the moment.

 

[Ithekro]

Again, even based on what we've seen in ENT, DIS, and even TAS, there is nothing like TNG era holograms in use yet in the Federation. Not to the level that Kirk would need to experience to get the effect of thousands upon thousands of people pressing against the Enterprise's hull in terms of look and sound. Eventually he does encounter some more advanced holograms that can be solid it at least interact within limited constraints such as in "That Which Survives", which was the episode immediately after "The Mark of Gideon".

 

[marsh8472]

Again, even based on what we've seen in ENT, DIS, and even TAS, there is nothing like TNG era holograms in use yet in the Federation. Not to the level that Kirk would need to experience to get the effect of thousands upon thousands of people pressing against the Enterprise's hull in terms of look and sound. Eventually he does encounter some more advanced holograms that can be solid it at least interact within limited constraints such as in "That Which Survives", which was the episode immediately after "The Mark of Gideon".

Yeah exactly and yet we saw this in Discovery this week:

 

[marsh8472]

The top one is a real klingon ship. The bottom is a holographic recreation of the same thing. Both look equally real to me. I don't see how they can remember the patterns on the floor and other little details for their training program.

 

[WarpFactorZ]

The top one is a real klingon ship. The bottom is a holographic recreation of the same thing. Both look equally real to me. I don't see how they can remember the patterns on the floor and other little details for their training program.

Because they used the same fucking set.

 

[kosh130967]

Seems clear to me that the producers do not care much about continuity, or scientific accuracy.
In the timeline of the original series shuttle craft did not have warp drive, though they do in Discovery.
In the timeline of the original series they did not have site to site transporters, yet Discovery has them.
In the timeline of the original series they did not have holodecks, yet Discovery has one. Granted this could be just be primitive holograms as one person said.
In one episode Discovery almost crashed into a star. We are told that it is an O type star, yet we are given a lovely view of an orange yellow star. O type stars are blue-white. In TNG they had Andre Beumanis as a scientific advisor so that stuff ups like this did not happen.
It's really annoying that they don't seem to care about these sorts of things, so long as they are making money.

 

[Delaware123]

What about lighting technology? It seems like the ship could use more than a few daylight bulbs.

 

[marsh8472]

 

[Tosk]

In the timeline of the original series they did not have site to site transporters

Wrong. Scotty does a site-to-site transport in A Piece of the Action.

In the timeline of the original series they did not have holodecks

Prove it.

In TNG they had Andre Beumanis as a scientific advisor so that stuff ups like this did not happen.

You think TNG didn't make science mistakes as well?

It's really annoying that they don't seem to care about these sorts of things, so long as they are making money.

Then stop assuming that they don't care and that their only focus is money. I guarantee you that is not the case.

 

[Succubint]

This guy? The one who was praising the show's approach to science in the premiere?

http://www.syfy.com/syfywire/star-treks-longtime-nasa-adviser-grades-the-discovery-premiere

 

[Noname Given]

In the timeline of the original series they did not have site to site transporters, yet Discovery has them.

It's really annoying that they don't seem to care about these sorts of things, so long as they are making money.

ORLY?
TOS - "Day of the Dove"

KIRK: We can't get through the Klingon defenses in time, unless. Spock. Intra-ship beaming from one section to another. It's possible?

SPOCK: It has rarely been done because of the danger involved. Pinpoint accuracy is required. If the transportee should materialize inside a solid object, a deck or wall.

SCOTT: Even if it could work, she may be leading you into a trap.

Is the rest of your TOS era recollection as accurate? Also, remember the U.S.S. Discovery is a testbed ship employing a lot of untested technology of the TOS era.

 

[The Mighty Monkey of Mim]

The top one is a real klingon ship. The bottom is a holographic recreation of the same thing. Both look equally real to me. I don't see how they can remember the patterns on the floor and other little details for their training program.

As "equally real" as they both look on your screen, if you were standing on the set I bet you'd readily be able to tell that you weren't actually on a spaceship made of metal, even though the level of surface detail is sufficient to fool the camera. Ever seen the movie Inception, where something as minute as the subtle weave and wear-pattern of a carpet not feeling right, despite looking right, might be the tell that it's a dream and not the genuine article? And again, a key feature of holodecks as Harry Kim knows them is that they don't just look real; they feel, sound, smell, and taste real in every sensory detail—like the Talosian illusions that so impressed and terrified in "The Cage," which of course no one would suspect as holographic if their experience of holograms was never remotely up to that muster—and, in part, are real. They are also sophisticated on the pseudo-sentient (even full on sentient, no pseudo, in a few cases) AI character side of things. No indication those holographic Klingons could hold conversations with Lorca and Tyler exhibiting individual personalities...

In the timeline of the original series shuttle craft did not have warp drive

So how did Kirk pursue and catch up to the Enterprise at warp in a shuttle in "The Menagerie"? And why do they have warp nacelles?

 

[Spot261]

@marsh8472

Um, I did, those articles both start with civilian entities or applications. Mobile phones for mail train operators (simply tested on military trains - didn't come into use by the military until WWII) and wide area networks as a precursor to the ARPANET, which in turn was followed by extensive development by universities and civilian research groups.

 

[Jinn]

How about this: The sim room in DSC cannot be a holodeck for one simple reason: Harry Kim said there were now holodecks in the 23rd century. If we approach this topic with all the quotes previously posted and assuming that all live action Trek shows are oficially canon the only logical consequence of combining all these facts is that DSC doesn't have a holodeck but a pre-curser.

 

[cultcross]

So now you're just rehashing your posts from the beginning of the thread. Hoping the newcomers won't notice? Too bad they were shot down just as quickly this time around, though.


LOL, no one is "clinging" to TAS to defend this. You just tried to distract everyone with an argument about TAS's official status, which was entirely pointless because we already know you don't care about official status.

Meanwhile, you're clinging to out-of-context lines from TNG and VOY, arguments from ignorance like "They've never mentioned holograms in the original series", and completely reinterpreting concepts like food synthesis in TOS.

But all of that is nothing compared to the stunt you just pulled, as we'll see at the end of this post.



I've seen no evidence that Discovery has a "fully functional holodeck". Are there physical holo-props? Forcefield-based terrain and interactive objects? Notice how they walked out with their actual guns. This isn't a holodeck yet. It's laser tag. Yes, "early stages".


And now, this thread has jumped the shark.

This was put up for the first time last night, and was reverted exactly one minute later because "no proof of anything to say that they're not acknowledging it." But you happened to grab a screenshot that minute.

You're either incredibly lucky, or you're 184.59.2.57. You could have at least spelled CBS properly...

Songs will be sung of this win.


Btw, mods can see your IP. #justsayin