TAS, I'm ready for a re-animating

[Sector 7]

I admit, I'm hardly a fan of TAS. I view it as cheap 70's junk. (Oh, look, the Enterprise is flying sideways! People's uniform colors change at random! How fun! How authentic! )

And I'm also very much a revisionist. I fully support any and all Special Editions, remasterings, etc. that I can get. TOS-R, Star Wars SE, etc. Bring it on!

As for TAS...I've always wanted a full-out CGI remake (similar to the new Captain Scarlet. Or are you nostalgic for the days of silly little marionettes too? ) and this is not likely to change. I'm curious as to how close to the look of TOS they could get.

Agreed.

I agree. Paramount's gross insults should be confined to the people who made the visual effects of the original series.

That's not fair. The TOS Remastered team took great care to be faithful to the design and feel of the original shots. They could've renounced them altogether, redesigned the Enterprise and the other ships, and done it all in a modern, flashy style, but they didn't. They kept the basic aesthetics intact as much as they could.

That's like asking why an artist restoring a painting would want to try to recreate the artist's original style rather than just throwing the painting away and taking a photograph that resembles it. Animation is not just a crude substitute for live-action, it's a distinct artistic medium in its own right. TAS was its own entity -- not just an attempt to copy TOS, but an attempt to make a show that captured the essence of TOS while bringing something new to it, something that only animation could provide.

Besides, there are a lot of us who are fans of TAS, who enjoy and value what Filmation created. There are a lot of us who are fans of Filmation's whole body of work, who grew up with it and are very attached to it. Are you saying that people who love TOS are worthy of consideration but those of us who love TAS should be slapped in the face by having the thing we care about rejected and replaced? How is that remotely fair? And how is that anything but grossly insulting to the professionals who put their hard work and creativity into making TAS what it was?

By this line of reasoning, all future art should be stopped. No new creativity should be allowed.
Did painters stop painting after the Mona Lisa? By your line of reasoning they should have stopped because no one should ever attempt to do any better. No Monet, no Picasso, no Van Gogh nor any other great art.

What in bloody blue blazes are you talking about? You're confusing two entirely unrelated issues. I'm not talking about creating new product. If someone were to make a new animated Star Trek, I'd be happy to see it done with a new visual style and with modern techniques. But we're not talking about that. We're talking about going back to a pre-existing creation and modifying it. And if you're doing something like that, you have to approach it as a restoration -- to strive to be faithful to the original artistic intent so that you don't lose the essence of it as you modify it. The makers of TOS-R tried to capture the look and feel of the original FX shots as closely as possible. The makers of the TMP special edition tried to make their new shots look as though they'd been made in 1979 using the technology of the day.

The proper analogy wouldn't be doing new paintings beyond the Mona Lisa. It would be, say, being commissioned to paint a larger, full-length version of the Mona Lisa. If you were doing that, you wouldn't just ignore Leonardo's style and do it in your own totally different style. The only remotely non-blasphemous way to do it would be to try to preserve and pay tribute to Leonardo's style as much as possible, to create something that was faithful to it. That doesn't mean you can't then go and do your own original painting in a completely different style, because that's something entirely separate.

What in bloody blue blazes are you talking about? The "Let's make it new, but don't change anything" attitude is pointless. The fact is, it wasn't that great even then. There were way too many blunders which made it to screen. Some of the original actors are dead, so voices need to be re-cast. Hopefully the original animators have either retired or learned to improve the cheap-looking, flat animation of the original.
Considering all these shortcomings, the best thing to do is start over for a new animated series and remember the old one fondly if desired.
A new TAS series can be done. Hire new animators with new ideas and abilities. Use current technologies. Make it relevant to today's viewing audience. Or, make it a redone old cartoon who's technical merits are questionable so a few old fans tune in or buy. If I was the executive in charge of a new Star Trek animated series, the decision would not be that difficult. Let's start over.

 

[M'Sharak]

Wasn't there already some kind of new animated Trek in the works? I recall someone posting some early artwork, uniform studies, as I recall. It was something between TOS movies and TNG in style.

Or was that just fan wank?

I found it!

http://trekmovie.com/2006/12/13/cbs-considering-new-animated-trek-series/

I remember seeing the artwork at the time, and may have seen an article, but a look at David Rossi's IMDb entry shows no sign of this having gone anywhere. No clue on his StarTrek.com bio page, either. The new animated series is mentioned in passing on his entry at Memory Alpha as something he was developing, but that's all.

Edit:

Found a thread from a little over a year ago, and the project seemed to be pretty much nowhere then.

 

[Sector 7]

^ That's sad. I think I could have gotten into this one.

 

[Christopher]

Ever since the first Star Wars film, ST has followed SW. ENT was a prequel series which came after the first (?) SW prequel.

Ohh, hardly! Trek was doing sequel series starting in 1987, so it's pretty bizarre to say that ENT -- the fourth sequel series -- was somehow a Star Wars knockoff. And ST was successful in tie-in literature long, long before the SW "Expanded Universe" came into being.

Heck, why do you think Lucas named the thing Star Wars in the first place? Because he wanted it to sound like Star Trek! He's admitted that! So don't you go telling me that ST copies SW. Gene fired first.

What in bloody blue blazes are you talking about? The "Let's make it new, but don't change anything" attitude is pointless. The fact is, it wasn't that great even then. There were way too many blunders which made it to screen. Some of the original actors are dead, so voices need to be re-cast. Hopefully the original animators have either retired or learned to improve the cheap-looking, flat animation of the original.
Considering all these shortcomings, the best thing to do is start over for a new animated series and remember the old one fondly if desired.
A new TAS series can be done. Hire new animators with new ideas and abilities. Use current technologies. Make it relevant to today's viewing audience. Or, make it a redone old cartoon who's technical merits are questionable so a few old fans tune in or buy. If I was the executive in charge of a new Star Trek animated series, the decision would not be that difficult. Let's start over.

If you'd actually bothered to pay attention to what I said, you'd know that I agree with you and you're arguing with the wrong person. I'm not advocating a retooling of TAS. I like it the way it is, and I'd much rather see a new animated series than some misguided attempt to "improve" on the original. I'm merely saying that, if it were to be done, the only respectful and responsible way to do it would be to try to capture the distinctive qualities of the original while also bringing something new to it, as was done with TOS-R or the TMP Director's Edition. It's bizarre for you to say it's "pointless" to use the exact same philosophy that's underlaid both previous Star Trek remake/restoration projects.

As for recasting the actors, why in the world would you think that would need to be done? The proposal under discussion in this thread isn't making new episodes, it's redoing the animation on the episodes that exist. As with TOS-R, you'd keep the same soundtrack but replace the visuals.

And your attack on the animators of the original is ignorant, unfair, and insulting. Filmation's staff included many fine animation professionals, including veterans of Warner Bros. and Disney cartoons and some people who would go on to become major names behind the most acclaimed animated shows of the '90s. They were anything but incompetents. But they were working in a medium with a very, very restricted budget, and that required them to adopt a minimalist approach. No matter how talented you are, the quality of animation you're able to produce is directly proportional to the time and money you have available to do it. The same animation studio that can do spectacularly beautiful work on a feature film with a large budget and long shooting schedule (for instance, Tokyo Movie Shinsha on Akira) can also do crude, flat, jerky work when on a microscopic TV budget and rushed TV schedule (for instance, Tokyo Movie Shinsha on the later seasons of the Fox Spider-Man animated series).

And matters were even worse on TAS. Not only was Filmation allocated a micrscopic budget, but the network put them on an insanely tight schedule, giving them only six months to produce the first 16 episodes. They were forced to do a rush job, and if anything it's impressive that they did even as well as they did under those restrictions.

 

[RobertScorpio]

And matters were even worse on TAS. Not only was Filmation allocated a micrscopic budget, but the network put them on an insanely tight schedule, giving them only six months to produce the first 16 episodes. They were forced to do a rush job, and if anything it's impressive that they did even as well as they did under those restrictions.

Yes, impressive, for its time. Now? Who cares? I think it could benefit from new animation. And because most of the vocal talent, including Shatner, seems to sedated by weed (you never know, this was the early 70s) I think doing new audio might help too...

Rob

 

[Saxman1]

Boo hoo! Ya'll be picking on poor lil' ol' me!

 

[Therin of Andor]

Yes, impressive, for its time. Now? Who cares? I think it could benefit from new animation. And because most of the vocal talent, including Shatner, seems to sedated by weed (you never know, this was the early 70s) I think doing new audio might help too...

So you're thinking the scripts are the only elements worth saving?

Why not go the whole hog and have hem start a new animated series, then?

Either tinker with TAS and improve the glitches, or go all out brand new. An animated TAS after the next movie (and its sequels) using whichever cast members are not too busy being huge movie stars.

 

[RobertScorpio]

Yes, impressive, for its time. Now? Who cares? I think it could benefit from new animation. And because most of the vocal talent, including Shatner, seems to sedated by weed (you never know, this was the early 70s) I think doing new audio might help too...

So you're thinking the scripts are the only elements worth saving?

Why not go the whole hog and have hem start a new animated series, then?

Either tinker with TAS and improve the glitches, or go all out brand new. An animated TAS after the next movie (and its sequels) using whichever cast members are not too busy being huge movie stars.

I think we could all agree with that...

Rob

 

[Sector 7]

Yes, impressive, for its time. Now? Who cares? I think it could benefit from new animation. And because most of the vocal talent, including Shatner, seems to sedated by weed (you never know, this was the early 70s) I think doing new audio might help too...

So you're thinking the scripts are the only elements worth saving?

Why not go the whole hog and have hem start a new animated series, then?

Either tinker with TAS and improve the glitches, or go all out brand new. An animated TAS after the next movie (and its sequels) using whichever cast members are not too busy being huge movie stars.

I think we could all agree with that...

Rob

That's what I've been saying... but I keep getting trashed by a certain someone when I do.
It seems that some people start threads under the pretense of creating discussion, but actually only want to trash anyone with a differing opinion. How droll.

 

[Brundledan]

Christopher, you've exactly reflected my feelings in defense of TAS, and it's always a joy to read forum posts that have me shouting "yes! exactly!"

TAS's visual style -- as opposed to the actual animation, which few could defend -- was leaps and bounds ahead of nearly anything else being produced in the industry in 1973. When the DVD set came out a while back it was the first time I'd watched the series in 20 years; in that time Cartoon Network and Boomerang had given us all plenty of opportunity to see just how low the state of animation, both television and theatrical, had sunk by 1973. So, when I popped in the first TAS disc I was blown away by how good the show looked.... forget the actual animation; from a basic design standpoint TAS was very pleasing to the eye and, it goes without saying, very true to its source material. It's amazing what Filmation was able to accomplish on the budget it had to work with.

Besides, there are a lot of us who are fans of TAS, who enjoy and value what Filmation created. There are a lot of us who are fans of Filmation's whole body of work, who grew up with it and are very attached to it. Are you saying that people who love TOS are worthy of consideration but those of us who love TAS should be slapped in the face by having the thing we care about rejected and replaced? How is that remotely fair? And how is that anything but grossly insulting to the professionals who put their hard work and creativity into making TAS what it was?

From the beginning this has been my exact position in opposition to TOS-R, but it's an argument I seem to have lost a long time ago.... Human beings will forever make the mistake of judging the past by the standards and values of the present; we thus fail to understand the past in most of its respects. Where art is concerned, we now have the technology to reshape past works into what we think they "should" look like according to today's fleeting standards. I would invite anyone who thinks "remastering" TAS to be a good idea to take a look at the CGI of ten years ago -- Beast Wars, and the like -- and decide how well (or how badly) most of it has aged.

-Dan

 

[RAMA]

^^I agree. I love TAS the way it is, recycled cels and all. And I'd be happy to see a new animated Trek in a more modern style (though preferably 2D) -- so long as it were aimed at teen/adult audiences and done with plausibility and intelligence, rather than kid-oriented.

Hm. It occurs to me that Paramount and Nickelodeon are both Viacom subsidiaries. So just imagine if they gave an animated Trek series to some of the folks who made Avatar: The Last Airbender. That would be great.

I'm not averse to traditional animation at all, I just felt CGI is dominating more than ever now and that it might be more accepted. I'm currently watching Gundam 00 episodes from Japan, and the traditional animation is still impressive...and to top it all off it a great series.

RAMA

 

[The Tone]

Even with new animation, TAS is simply tepid in story pacing and somewhat tortuous to watch.

IMHO.

 

[Saxman1]

Even with new animation, TAS is simply tepid in story pacing and somewhat tortuous to watch.

IMHO.

My kids adore the show (they are 7 and 10). That's one of those things you look at and say, "Why the hell did I buy that?" I feel the same way about Voyager and Enterprise in retrospect. Just because it says "Star Trek" doesn't mean it's a must-have.

Still, there are tons of fans of all three of those series.

 

[Good Will Riker]

I recently listened to the audio commentary for the Futurama episode "Where No Fan Has Gone Before," and the writers of that show were commenting on how the animation quality for their parody episode was (obviously) superior to that of TAS from the 1970's.

So, folks...this can be done!

 

[The Tone]

Even with new animation, TAS is simply tepid in story pacing and somewhat tortuous to watch.

IMHO.

My kids adore the show (they are 7 and 10). That's one of those things you look at and say, "Why the hell did I buy that?" I feel the same way about Voyager and Enterprise in retrospect. Just because it says "Star Trek" doesn't mean it's a must-have.

Still, there are tons of fans of all three of those series.

No doubt.

I was actually a very young child when TAS made it's original TV run and I absolutely loved it then. I had what I thought were great memories of the show and I couldn't wait until it came out on DVD.

When I finally got the DVD, I was excited that I vaguely remembered some of the plots, but that excitement waned and I found I just couldn't finish watching the series - it was tortuously slow and all the nostalgia in the world couldn't make me sit through it.

What I'd personally like to see, if they are going to spend the money on animation, is a new animated series with fresh and exciting stories. Maybe they could get the Shat to voice Kirk since he's so pissed at being left out of the new movie.

Just my opinion.

 

[Saxman1]

Even with new animation, TAS is simply tepid in story pacing and somewhat tortuous to watch.

IMHO.

My kids adore the show (they are 7 and 10). That's one of those things you look at and say, "Why the hell did I buy that?" I feel the same way about Voyager and Enterprise in retrospect. Just because it says "Star Trek" doesn't mean it's a must-have.

Still, there are tons of fans of all three of those series.

No doubt.

I was actually a very young child when TAS made it's original TV run and I absolutely loved it then. I had what I thought were great memories of the show and I couldn't wait until it came out on DVD.

When I finally got the DVD, I was excited that I vaguely remembered some of the plots, but that excitement waned and I found I just couldn't finish watching the series - it was tortuously slow and all the nostalgia in the world couldn't make me sit through it.

What I'd personally like to see, if they are going to spend the money on animation, is a new animated series with fresh and exciting stories. Maybe they could get the Shat to voice Kirk since he's so pissed at being left out of the new movie.

Just my opinion.

I agree 100%. Season 3 of TOS is like Shakespeare in comparison. When I first got the series on DVD, I found it kind of silly in a goofy 1970s way (boy Spock and the other Vulcan kids in diaper-like outfits), but the second go around through the series, I couldn't stay awake and when I didn't nod off, I was annoyed.

 

[Captain Robert April]

Supposedly, the scripts for TAS weren't much shorter than those for TOS; it was the pacing that got it all crammed into a half hour format. So, logically, it shouldn't take a whole lot to stretch a typical TAS episode into a hour long approximation of a fourth season TOS episode.

Personally, I'd keep as much of the Filmation design style as I comfortably could, but there'd also be a concerted effort to bring certain elements more in line with TOS (shuttlecraft, pink tribbles, Kzinti about as threatening as a half starved alley cat, and the internal arrangement of the Enterprise, for instance). If someone can be found that can do spot-on De Kelley and Jimmy Doohan impressions, then some episodes might be due for some re-recording, this time with the entire cast in attendance (a prime reason why the dialogue sounded so flat and uninspired in most cases was because, with a couple of notable exceptions, everyone recorded their dialogue separately, so they had nothing to play against). There are some very simple recording tricks to make Shatner and Nimoy sound like they did back in the day.