Tales of the Eugenics Wars?

[Christopher]

I agree with most of that.Its just that I feel strongly that the information provided about the Eugenics Wars in TOS and ENT indicates that it was an overt,worldwide,alliance - counter alliance kind of conflict whose events would have been on the front page of the paper daily.

That was implied in "Space Seed," but the specific dialogue doesn't absolutely rule out an alternative interpretation. After all, the EW novels don't say that everything that happened was secret -- they just say that the reasons behind a lot of publicly known events were not understood until generations later. So the public could've known about a variety of conflicts and violent acts but not understood what was really driving them behind the scenes.

And remember, history isn't the past, it's merely an interpretation of the past. "Space Seed" isn't a primary source for the Eugenics Wars, only for how 23rd-century historians interpret the Eugenics Wars. History isn't always an accurate account of the past.

For example this would include common knowledge of the the very existence of the eugenic supermen/augments but in Gregs books this is also a secret.

There's actually nothing in "Space Seed" that clearly says the tyrants were known by the general public of the time to be Augments, as opposed to being recognized as such by later historians. Take this passage:

SPOCK: I have collected some names and made some counts. By my estimate, there were some eighty or ninety of these young supermen unaccounted for when they were finally defeated.
KIRK: That fact isn't in the history texts.
SPOCK: Would you reveal to war-weary populations that some eighty Napoleons might still be alive?

I'd say that makes it explicit that at least certain key details about the Eugenics Wars were indeed kept secret from the public of the time.

The thing I think I like the most about Enterprise is that it firmly establishes the Eugenics Wars were overt and took place in the 1990's!

ENT does establish that there were overt wars, but not that the existence of the Augments was public knowledge. As I said, the EW novels don't say that the conflicts were completely unknown, just that the reasons behind them were. Events that the public took as isolated acts of terrorism, civil wars, disasters, and the like were actually parts of a larger phenomenon that historians didn't recognize until after the fact. It's true that the novels suggest less open warfare than ENT indicated, but I still say the interpretations are reconcilable if one reads flexibly and assumes the novels only told part of the story. It's certainly easier than reconciling "Space Seed"'s ethnically diverse superhumans with The Wrath of Khan's twentysomething Aryans over 15 years later.

 

[DonIago]

Doesn't all of the EW knowledge brought up in TOS, at least, come with the big whopping disclaimer that "records from that period are fragmentary", or some such? Given that I'd say even the "facts" established during "Space Seed" aren't necessarily so.

In any case, I'm quite the fan of the EW books, but also open to differing interpretations. Myriad Universes and such.

Speaking of which, I have to admit I'd be curious to see whether anything comes of the developments in the universe where Khan wins.

 

[MichaelJCO]

I agree with most of that.Its just that I feel strongly that the information provided about the Eugenics Wars in TOS and ENT indicates that it was an overt,worldwide,alliance - counter alliance kind of conflict whose events would have been on the front page of the paper daily.

That was implied in "Space Seed," but the specific dialogue doesn't absolutely rule out an alternative interpretation. After all, the EW novels don't say that everything that happened was secret -- they just say that the reasons behind a lot of publicly known events were not understood until generations later. So the public could've known about a variety of conflicts and violent acts but not understood what was really driving them behind the scenes.

And remember, history isn't the past, it's merely an interpretation of the past. "Space Seed" isn't a primary source for the Eugenics Wars, only for how 23rd-century historians interpret the Eugenics Wars. History isn't always an accurate account of the past.

For example this would include common knowledge of the the very existence of the eugenic supermen/augments but in Gregs books this is also a secret.

There's actually nothing in "Space Seed" that clearly says the tyrants were known by the general public of the time to be Augments, as opposed to being recognized as such by later historians. Take this passage:

SPOCK: I have collected some names and made some counts. By my estimate, there were some eighty or ninety of these young supermen unaccounted for when they were finally defeated.
KIRK: That fact isn't in the history texts.
SPOCK: Would you reveal to war-weary populations that some eighty Napoleons might still be alive?

I'd say that makes it explicit that at least certain key details about the Eugenics Wars were indeed kept secret from the public of the time.

The thing I think I like the most about Enterprise is that it firmly establishes the Eugenics Wars were overt and took place in the 1990's!

ENT does establish that there were overt wars, but not that the existence of the Augments was public knowledge. As I said, the EW novels don't say that the conflicts were completely unknown, just that the reasons behind them were. Events that the public took as isolated acts of terrorism, civil wars, disasters, and the like were actually parts of a larger phenomenon that historians didn't recognize until after the fact. It's true that the novels suggest less open warfare than ENT indicated, but I still say the interpretations are reconcilable if one reads flexibly and assumes the novels only told part of the story. It's certainly easier than reconciling "Space Seed"'s ethnically diverse superhumans with The Wrath of Khan's twentysomething Aryans over 15 years later.

I get what you are saying here but to me this still goes to the heart of what the Eugenics War(s) was(were).
Was it basically a overt worldwide conflict where the public was mostly aware of who the major players and issues were or were they events that the public took as isolated acts of terrorism, civil wars, disasters and largely didn't know ath the time who was involved or what was at stake?
I just think that the answer that the canon established in TOS and ENT favors is the former rather than the later. For that reason alone I'm strongly resistant to the idea that Greg's books should be considered the definitive or final answer to the Eugenics War(s).

 

[MichaelJCO]

Doesn't all of the EW knowledge brought up in TOS, at least, come with the big whopping disclaimer that "records from that period are fragmentary", or some such? Given that I'd say even the "facts" established during "Space Seed" aren't necessarily so.

However,another canon source the Enterprise episodes dealing with the Eugenics War pretty much confirm what was mentioned in "Space Seed".

 

[Christopher]

I get what you are saying here but to me this still goes to the heart of what the Eugenics War(s) was(were).
Was it basically a overt worldwide conflict where the public was mostly aware of who the major players and issues were or were they events that the public took as isolated acts of terrorism, civil wars, disasters and largely didn't know ath the time who was involved or what was at stake?
I just think that the answer that the canon established in TOS and ENT favors is the former rather than the later. For that reason alone I'm strongly resistant to the idea that Greg's books should be considered the definitive or final answer to the Eugenics War(s).

Sure, that's what the canon favors; it's what "Space Seed" assumed and ENT followed that lead. And it goes without saying that no tie-in book is ever going to be definitive. Plus, I've already said that I'd be interested in seeing an alternative take on the Eugenics Wars. I'm not arguing "right" or "wrong" here. It's pointless to make a fuss over whether one made-up story is more "true" than another made-up story. I'm simply saying that it's possible to reconcile Greg's version of the Eugenics Wars with the onscreen evidence if you tweak things a little.

 

[BrotherBenny]

I'd love to see that, and we do have some characters/events to use.

Gary Seven and Roberta Lincoln
Henry Starling and Rain Robinson
Ralph Oppenheimer (atoning for his sins)
Dr. Nichols of Plexicorp
Creation of the O'Neill habitats

And so on.

 

[Christopher]

^Do you mean Ralph Offenhouse?

And the O'Neill habitats date from somewhat later than the 1990s, surely.

 

[Sci]

I get what you are saying here but to me this still goes to the heart of what the Eugenics War(s) was(were).
Was it basically a overt worldwide conflict where the public was mostly aware of who the major players and issues were

Of course, the Eugenics Wars novels don't say that the wars were secret. It says that they were conflicts that weren't widely perceived as happening by the American public.

That's not completely unrealistic. More people died in the Second Congo War than from any other war since World War II, but how many Americans even know what the Second Congo War was or had any idea it was going on?

 

[MichaelJCO]

I get what you are saying here but to me this still goes to the heart of what the Eugenics War(s) was(were).
Was it basically a overt worldwide conflict where the public was mostly aware of who the major players and issues were

Of course, the Eugenics Wars novels don't say that the wars were secret. It says that they were conflicts that weren't widely perceived as happening by the American public.

That's not completely unrealistic.

I think its just completely unlikely if the Eugenics Wars were as described in TOS and ENT-worldwide,overt and devestating.
ENT establishes that American troops were deployed in North Africa during the war. I know some people dont care that we have troops in Iraq and Afghanistan but they are aware that they are there.

 

[Sci]

I get what you are saying here but to me this still goes to the heart of what the Eugenics War(s) was(were).
Was it basically a overt worldwide conflict where the public was mostly aware of who the major players and issues were

Of course, the Eugenics Wars novels don't say that the wars were secret. It says that they were conflicts that weren't widely perceived as happening by the American public.

That's not completely unrealistic.

I think its just completely unlikely if the Eugenics Wars were as described in TOS and ENT-worldwide,overt and devestating.
ENT establishes that American troops were deployed in North Africa during the war. I know some people dont care that we have troops in Iraq and Afghanistan but they are aware that they are there.

Right, because the United States government has never luanched secret military operations on foreign soil. Ever.

 

[captcalhoun]

^ that's a bit different though. especially the first one.

if Archer knew what his grand-pappy was up to, either his grand-pappy violated classification rules or it was openly known.

 

[Christopher]

ENT establishes that American troops were deployed in North Africa during the war.

No, it doesn't. It only establishes that Jonathan Archer's great-grandfather served in a batallion in North Africa during the Eugenics Wars. It doesn't say what country that batallion served. Plenty of Americans have great-grandparents who weren't American; we're a nation of immigrants, after all. And we know from "Rogue Planet" that he liked his mother to recite a Yeats poem to him, so maybe his mother's family was Irish.

 

[captcalhoun]

^or British.

or... his great grandpappy was an American who served in a foreign Army. that ain't unheard of neither.

 

[Christopher]

or... his great grandpappy was an American who served in a foreign Army. that ain't unheard of neither.

Right, I was going to mention that possibility but it slipped my mind. Thanks.

 

[captcalhoun]

no probs. Britain's got a lot of Fijians and Nepalese (Gurkhas) in its Army, but there's plenty of other countries who've been represented in our forces; even since WWII. i remember reading an article about it once where there was about 16 countries represented and not all Commonwealth ones either. Sweden was one i always remember...

 

[Sci]

^ that's a bit different though. especially the first one.

Is it?

The point is not the moral justification for it, just that it's not impossible for the U.S. Armed Forces to participate in a military conflict on foreign soil without the average American being aware of it.

if Archer knew what his grand-pappy was up to, either his grand-pappy violated classification rules or it was openly known.

Or it became openly known later on.

 

[Christopher]

^Of course. The idea isn't that the Eugenics Wars stayed a secret forever, just that our own generation wasn't aware of them. Obviously they were known by Kirk's time, so there's no reason they couldn't have been known by Archer's time, over 150 years after the event.

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

ENT establishes that American troops were deployed in North Africa during the war.

No, it doesn't. It only establishes that Jonathan Archer's great-grandfather served in a batallion in North Africa during the Eugenics Wars. It doesn't say what country that batallion served. Plenty of Americans have great-grandparents who weren't American; we're a nation of immigrants, after all. And we know from "Rogue Planet" that he liked his mother to recite a Yeats poem to him, so maybe his mother's family was Irish.

Was it Archer's grandfather, or great-grandfather? Because if it's the former, I don't see how he could have even been alive at the time.

 

[MichaelJCO]

^Of course. The idea isn't that the Eugenics Wars stayed a secret forever, just that our own generation wasn't aware of them. Obviously they were known by Kirk's time, so there's no reason they couldn't have been known by Archer's time, over 150 years after the event.

Or maybe they were known about in the 1990's as TOS And ENT indicate.

 

[Sci]

^Of course. The idea isn't that the Eugenics Wars stayed a secret forever, just that our own generation wasn't aware of them. Obviously they were known by Kirk's time, so there's no reason they couldn't have been known by Archer's time, over 150 years after the event.

Or maybe they were known about in the 1990's as TOS And ENT indicate.

Neither one indicates anything about American public awareness.