T.W.O.K vs STID

[F. King Daniel]

It was that type of shit that killed the franchise. What Berman tried to pass off as "soul searching" and "deep philosophy" ended up coming across as incredibly shallow and dull even by the standards of mid/late-90's television.

Indeed. Those who think episodes like "The Inner Light" are the apex of Trek are in the wrong place. You're never going to get that from a Trek movie, let alone one based on TOS.

I like Star Trek as action-adventure.

Indeed. It's how the show was conceived and how it works best.

To quote Picard from Encounter at Farpoint: "If we're going to be damned, let's be damned for what we really are."

The fandom has deliberated but decided that bitching and moaning is easier than altering one's expectations.

 

[BillJ]

Those who think episodes like "The Inner Light" are the apex of Trek are in the wrong place. You're never going to get that from a Trek movie, let alone one based on TOS.

I wish we would have never gotten it from TNG. I find The Inner Light incredibly shallow and philosophically empty.

"But he played a flute at the end!"

Zzzzzzzzzzz...

 

[plynch]

There's lots of action-adventure out there. Watch Die Hard 13 or something.

ST was action-adventure PLUS. Plus heart and character, humanity, what-ifs, moral conundrums, big speeches, superego-Kirk embracing id-Kirk, "getting" the Horta, not killing the Gorn, McCoy and Spock burying the hatchet when Kirk's lost in the Tholian web, etc. etc. Yes heavy-handed sometimes, but beautiful at others. I just watched "This Side of Paradise" and the scene in the transporter room with Spock and Leila is really touching. It wasn't just action-adventure, and there's good evidence GR ramped that angle up in response to the network (though "Cage" has action fo sho).

There's way more heart and humanity in TWOK than STID imho. Both have action adventure. TWOK is a great blend/balance, thus its being many people's favorite.

Though I'm not a JJTrek fan, I'll grant you 09 had heart and more character. I agree with those above who think ID is a regression from '09.

 

[F. King Daniel]

I know point-by-point replies can be annoying, but this had me going "but... but... but...!"
I know I won't change your opinion, but I want to offer my two cents.

There's lots of action-adventure out there. Watch Die Hard 13 or something.

ST was action-adventure PLUS. Plus heart and character, humanity, what-ifs

What-Ifs like Khan being awoken under completely different circumstances? That's applying Trek's formula to one of it's own greatest creations.

, moral conundrums,

Thomas Harewood's choice at the start of movie, putting his daughter above all else.
Kirk conundrum - should he follow orders and get revenge by nuking Khan from space or go down and arrest him?

big speeches,

Like Kirk's terrorism/revenge speech at the rechristening of the Enterprise a year after the crash.

superego-Kirk embracing id-Kirk,

Spock realizing that he can't shut out his emotions. That shutting out fear and pain means shutting out love as well.

"getting" the Horta,

Understanding Khan's need to save his crew. Seeing him as more than the enemy.

not killing the Gorn,

Kirk not executing Khan from space in violation of orders.

McCoy and Spock burying the hatchet when Kirk's lost in the Tholian web,

Spock realizing Kirk's deep friendship... as he dies.

etc. etc. Yes heavy-handed sometimes, but beautiful at others. I just watched "This Side of Paradise" and the scene in the transporter room with Spock and Leila is really touching. It wasn't just action-adventure, and there's good evidence GR ramped that angle up in response to the network (though "Cage" has action fo sho).

There's way more heart and humanity in TWOK than STID imho. Both have action adventure. TWOK is a great blend/balance, thus its being many people's favorite.

Though I'm not a JJTrek fan, I'll grant you 09 had heart and more character. I agree with those above who think ID is a regression from '09.

I honestly thought ID has the most heart of any Trek movie. It wasn't perfect, but it meant well and had a LOT more to it than Die Hard and it's ilk.

 

[plynch]

King Daniel, thank you for trying. Perhaps I forget too much about the film because I do not care for its style (a matter of taste, that) and the unnecessary Khan redux.

"No text can withstand a negative reading" or some such. Predisposed to dislike it, I do perhaps ignore its strengths. I'm not likely to rewatch it though, so my loss. But you give it a good defense.

 

[BigJake]

Though I'm not a JJTrek fan, I'll grant you 09 had heart and more character. I agree with those above who think ID is a regression from '09.

I don't know about regression; I think maybe it's more that STID made the mistake of actually encouraging a side-by-side comparison between itself and the best film of the original franchise. An overconfident call, perhaps the honeymoon-phase reviews of ST09 went to the creative team's heads.

bitching and moaning is easier than altering one's expectations

Altering one's expectations?

(Sorry, I mean, altering one's expectations?)

 

[ichab]

If I click with someone, I'm going to be as heartbroken if they die after knowing them for one year as I would after 15. The "They didn't know each other long enough" thing comes across to me as callous.

Oh please

It's not callous, it's human nature. Most people aren't going to have the same emotions for someone they knew for a year as they would someone they've known all their life. No one is saying they wouldn't feel anything, but the feelings would be much different.

Not surprised by the results in this poll as I am that anyone actually thought this was a real competition. STID was a decent flick, but nowhere near in the same league as TWOK.