T.W.O.K vs STID

[Nightdiamond]

Usually when I watch a movie , especially a Star Trek one, I do as a casual viewer. I want to be surprised, intrigued, or even shocked.

On the other hand, if I see the same old cliches, gimmicks and mindless action sequences, I get bored quick.

running in front of an explosion that happens from 3 different angles-seriously, who really gets excited by seeing that anymore?

Kirk's death and resurrection wasn't that much of a surprise or shock because we've seen this happen in movies millions of times already.

In the TWOK it may have surprised people because the movie ended that way, and no one saw it coming.

In STID, Kirk's death and resurrection happens in a matter of moments-plus the franchise just started, so most people had expect Kirk to be miraculously, scientifically brought back.

They just had to.

The funny thing is I like Star Wars movies, and they're guilty of the same thing, except it's just executed better.

 

[nureintier]

So if The Wrath of Khan had never happened, Into Darkness would've been a good movie? That really makes no sense.

Most of the audience either hadn't seen TWOK in thirty years or hadn't seen it at all. So it was new to them.

I don't think that's what Bry_Sinclair is saying since he said "would have enjoyed it MORE."

But since I can't speak for anyone else here, here are my feelings: I think the main problem with rehashing TWOK is not just that it rehashes parts of TWOK, but that it rehashes parts of TWOK that work because of the history between the characters. The Kirk/Spock scene in TWOK works, because they have years of history between them in TWOK. Not so in STID. When Khan shows up in TWOK, it's a big deal because of the history between him and Kirk. When Khan shows up in STID, he's just some dude trying to save his pals using questionable methods. There is nothing really else tying them together. He says his name is Khan, and everyone is all like, "so what?" There is no impact to this revelation (to the character), which is why I question them making Khan the bad guy in this movie at all.

My biggest problem, though, is the Kirk/Spock switch, which has little to no emotional impact (in my opinion) because these guys just met each other. I mean, I suppose it's sad and all, but I found it quite underwhelming. By the time Spock starts yelling "Khaaaann!" I was facepalming, it all seemed like a bad joke to me.

So, I would say that if TWOK never existed, or if I'd never seen it, I would still be less than impressed overall with STID. I don't hate STID, it's just.. meh. A lot of lens flares and action sequences, not much else.

 

[plynch]

I mean, I suppose it's sad and all, but I found it quite underwhelming. By the time Spock starts yelling "Khaaaann!" I was facepalming, it all seemed like a bad joke to me.

Agree.

 

[dub]

So if The Wrath of Khan had never happened, Into Darkness would've been a good movie? That really makes no sense.

Most of the audience either hadn't seen TWOK in thirty years or hadn't seen it at all. So it was new to them.

I don't think that's what Bry_Sinclair is saying since he said "would have enjoyed it MORE."

But since I can't speak for anyone else here, here are my feelings: I think the main problem with rehashing TWOK is not just that it rehashes parts of TWOK, but that it rehashes parts of TWOK that work because of the history between the characters. The Kirk/Spock scene in TWOK works, because they have years of history between them in TWOK. Not so in STID. When Khan shows up in TWOK, it's a big deal because of the history between him and Kirk. When Khan shows up in STID, he's just some dude trying to save his pals using questionable methods. There is nothing really else tying them together. He says his name is Khan, and everyone is all like, "so what?" There is no impact to this revelation (to the character), which is why I question them making Khan the bad guy in this movie at all.

My biggest problem, though, is the Kirk/Spock switch, which has little to no emotional impact (in my opinion) because these guys just met each other. I mean, I suppose it's sad and all, but I found it quite underwhelming. By the time Spock starts yelling "Khaaaann!" I was facepalming, it all seemed like a bad joke to me.

Thank you! I'm not alone! Those are pretty much the reasons those scenes didn't work for me. But I did enjoy the rest of the film. I just really wish they didn't go and mess it up.

 

[suarezguy]

The Wrath of Khan, while not perfect, was massively better. In particular, Khan had much better motivation and presence than either the new Khan or Marcus and Kirk, Spock and Saavik's storylines were much more interesting than new Kirk, Spock or Carol's.

 

[nureintier]

...
We are talking about one of the most iconic scenes in the history of the franchise so STID didn't really have a chance to one up TWOK in that regard. I do think that they were able to suceed in putting a clever twist on that concept though. I had a small smirk on my face when I realized their roles were flipped.

And the fact that it is one of the most iconic scenes in the franchise is precisely the reason I don't think it should have been done. I have no problem with it being self-referential, but I guess I don't like them messing with that scene in particular because it's bound to compare unfavorably. Especially since the characters have no history together at that point and since we know they couldn't really kill Kirk at that point.

I dunno. I am probably more annoyed by it than I should be, but I can't quite get over my annoyance with it.

 

[RyuRoots]

STID by a country mile. As far as I'm concerned, Into Darkness is Wrath of Khan only not atrociously bad. Cumberbatch sells the dangerous traits of Khan in a way Montalban was never capable of; he actually seems calculating and dangerous instead of an impatient, easily-baited buffoon.

The movie itself still has a few holes in it, but none of them are as glaring or leap out at me as much as the ones in TWOK. I wasn't big on Kirk's resurrection or the magic blood thing, but that's my only real knock against the movie.

 

[ichab]

I tend to prefer the original over the carbon copy.

 

[F. King Daniel]

I tend to prefer the original over the carbon copy.

They have Khan, Carol and a death scene in the warp core. Otherwise they're as much a "carbon copy" as Man of Steel is a carbon copy of Superman II.

 

[ichab]

I tend to prefer the original over the carbon copy.

They have Khan, Carol and a death scene in the warp core. Otherwise they're as much a "carbon copy" as Man of Steel is a carbon copy of Superman II.

Along with numerous lines and situations lifted straight from TWOK. But other than that, nothing similar.

 

[LOKAI of CHERON]

I tend to prefer the original over the carbon copy.

They have Khan, Carol and a death scene in the warp core. Otherwise they're as much a "carbon copy" as Man of Steel is a carbon copy of Superman II.

Along with numerous lines and situations lifted straight from TWOK. But other than that, nothing similar.

Not really, those lines came off as loving "tips of hat" to me, and didn't feel overdone in any way.

I have to agree with King Daniel Into Darkness here.

 

[Bry_Sinclair]

They have Khan, Carol and a death scene in the warp core. Otherwise they're as much a "carbon copy" as Man of Steel is a carbon copy of Superman II.

Along with numerous lines and situations lifted straight from TWOK. But other than that, nothing similar.

Not really, those lines came off as loving "tips of hat" to me, and didn't feel overdone in any way.

I have to agree with King Daniel Into Darkness here.

I'm with ichad on this. I found the lines in question to be a rip-off rather than a homage.

 

[F. King Daniel]

I tend to prefer the original over the carbon copy.

They have Khan, Carol and a death scene in the warp core. Otherwise they're as much a "carbon copy" as Man of Steel is a carbon copy of Superman II.

Along with numerous lines and situations lifted straight from TWOK. But other than that, nothing similar.

Definitely inspired by, but in no way a "carbon copy" of. Where was Genesis or the Mutara nebula battle in ID? Or Section 31, a starship crash or chase through the streets of San Francisco in WoK? If they're carbon copies, where is Khan's vendetta against Kirk?

I don't think you could tell a Khan story while remaining true to Trek lore and make it any more different than ID was to SS or WoK.

 

[Lucky]

The Wrath of Khan is my favorite of the two. In my overall rankings, TWOK is #2 and STID is #4.

 

[Nightdiamond]

It's a reboot of the original series that remade a sequel. That can be part of the reason people have had that reaction.

They dumped the history between, and had them meeting and serving together for barely a year.

Without the history and all the years spent between Kirk and Spock, Spock's reaction looked very generic.

Everything was rush, rush, spend a bigger budget, throw everything in, try to get bigger box office.

It has too much 'blockbuster' written into it. The Carol Marcus underwear scene was widely seen as unnecessary, except as another gimmick. Still hot though .

 

[F. King Daniel]

If I click with someone, I'm going to be as heartbroken if they die after knowing them for one year as I would after 15. The "They didn't know each other long enough" thing comes across to me as callous.

 

[Nightdiamond]

Of course-and true-- knowing someone for a year is enough to make anyone react like Spock did.

This is how I think some fans see it; One problem is that they based it on TWOK, which established that Kirk and Spock knew each other for decades, which made the impact so much stronger.

Having the characters go from academy to Starship command and knowing each other for only a year, lessens the impact.

The feeling that some fans get is that everything was put together quickly and forced together.

That along with Spock being a Vulcan-what would be the point of Vulcans as being being non extremely logical and non emotional, if they show him losing his composure?

As long as Nu trek reminds people of the original and follows some of its story line, they'll usually keep comparing the two.

 

[T'Girl]

I you think about it, it would have been incredibly easy not to have had Khan in the last movie at all and still have the movie be essentially the same.

John simply remains John.

No "revelation" in the brig that his real identity is Khan, lose being from the past, but keep most everything else.

Then there would have been no rip off of TWOK.

Maybe lose John's speech impediment too.

 

[nureintier]

That along with Spock being a Vulcan-what would be the point of Vulcans as being being non extremely logical and non emotional, if they show him losing his composure?

Losing his composure repeatedly. I mean, I can handle him getting upset now and then, but it seems like it's all he does.

I realize that NuSpock is not OldSpock, but again, one cannot help making comparisons, and NuSpock barely ever does anything which reminds us that he's supposed to be half Vulcan.

But yeah, I'd rather have had the same movie, without John being revealed to be Khan.

Also, I don't think anyone was saying they don't expect Spock to give a damn AT ALL that Kirk died, but rather, that the scene in TWOK has more impact because of the history.

 

[JarodRussell]

That along with Spock being a Vulcan-what would be the point of Vulcans as being being non extremely logical and non emotional, if they show him losing his composure?

Losing his composure repeatedly. I mean, I can handle him getting upset now and then, but it seems like it's all he does.

I realize that NuSpock is not OldSpock, but again, one cannot help making comparisons, and NuSpock barely ever does anything which reminds us that he's supposed to be half Vulcan.

But yeah, I'd rather have had the same movie, without John being revealed to be Khan.

The guy that beat up Khan out of anger on the Coruscant floating thingy, is the very same guy that beat up Kirk out of anger on the bridge, is the very same child that beat up the other kids out of anger in the Vulcan school thingy. nuSpock has absolutely no character development, and the writers seem to be proud of that.

Expect yet another scene where nuSpock beats someone up and has to be stopped in the third film.