T.W.O.K vs STID

[plynch]

There is such humanity in TWOK, what with Kirk's aging, the loss of our dear friend and hero, Spock, Kirk's having a son, death and rebirth, wonder. All executed so well, with good acting, plus Montalban chewing the scenery. STID is shallow lollapalooza, the kids are in charge, both in universe and out. I just cannot fathom how someone can appreciate STID more. (My shortcoming, I guess. I also can't understand how people get off on Mozart or those ridiculous LOTR movies compared to the charming books. I guess I need some IDIC lessons.)

I digress. Badly. To return to the movies at hand: As someone noted above, just compare the direction (I would add music) of the two death scenes.

Not looking for an argument. But in its mind-bogglingness to me,
it's as if someone said they thought a Ziggy cartoon was truly better art than the Mona Lisa or something.

Like what you like, though.

 

[F. King Daniel]

 

[Search4]

To add my 2 cents: Kirk has just had two crewmen who Khan had under his control. I always thought he over-acted the scream in case they were STILL under Khan's control. Didn't want to tip the plan to the people in the cave who might still be working for Khan.

 

[Nightdiamond]

Losing his composure repeatedly. I mean, I can handle him getting upset now and then, but it seems like it's all he does.

I realize that NuSpock is not OldSpock, but again, one cannot help making comparisons, and NuSpock barely ever does anything which reminds us that he's supposed to be half Vulcan.

Also, I don't think anyone was saying they don't expect Spock to give a damn AT ALL that Kirk died, but rather, that the scene in TWOK has more impact because of the history.

The guy that beat up Khan out of anger on the Coruscant floating thingy, is the very same guy that beat up Kirk out of anger on the bridge, is the very same child that beat up the other kids out of anger in the Vulcan school thingy. nuSpock has absolutely no character development, and the writers seem to be proud of that.

Expect yet another scene where nuSpock beats someone up and has to be stopped in the third film.

This is what I figured some fans are going to notice.

The concept about Vulcans is that they don't express emotions. They're devoted to logic.

They only do it in very rare instances or because of some odd situation like a disease.

So when we see Spock going into violent rages a number of times, people who know the series are bound to have that type of reaction.

Trying to have an open mind about those rages isn't going to cut it if they know about the basic concept of Vulcans established already.

It's as if it were more intended for movie goers who don't know much about Vulcans.

The thing is, Zachary Quinto does a perfect Spock --he nailed it -it's just the odd character behavior that may put some fans off.

 

[F. King Daniel]

Vulcans aspire to a state where they express no emotions. As we've seen as far back as TOS, they don't all succeed. Even Tuvok, the most 'Vulcan' of continuing Vulcan characters, had a troubled past where he failed to meet the ideal.

It's fans' incorrect preconceptions that are at fault.

 

[Cara007]

The WOK.

Am sorry but STID was a just fair film. WOK maybe chessy and dated but it still is the better film.

STID has better acting.

STID has the same writers as Transformers. ENOUGH SAID.

Thee same writers uplifted me and gave me so much hope with the awesomeness of ST 09, Then they took it all away with STID.

SO YES. WOK.

 

[Cara007]

Their relationship is probably the best 'change' in the new series.

I actually quite like the Spock-Uhura relationship and I rather like that it effectively makes Uhura the third point of the triumvirate originally formed by Kirk, Spock and Bones. And one thing I do like about Abramstrek is that they realized Uhura was a glorified switchboard operator and try to give her more to do.

I also think Trek, being an action-adventure format, is at its best when action is in the foreground and relationship drama is in the background, played subtly (part of why later Bermaga-era Trek started out to outstay its welcome with me was how consistently they forgot this). ST09's touch on the Uhura-Spock relationship was light, and it worked pretty well as a character beat. OTOH I had to groan in STiD when Uhura makes the bizarre decision to have it out with Spock in the midst of a commando mission to the Klingon homeworld. It looks foolish, petty and ridiculous... and the writers knew it. It's one of their many low moments in the film that has to be lampshaded by another character in dialogue, in this case Kirk impotently wondering aloud why they're doing this now.

If that's going to be what the Spock-Uhura relationship is used for, pass.

Yes exactly. this is the issue with STID. The writing of the overall film is awful. Most people are giving the blame to Linderlof. The s/u scene in the shuttle scene was a good conversation but it was put at the wrong moment. Spock screaming Khan, the reversal of spock's death by kirk's death, Harrison been khan, the disrespectful reference to christine chapel, carol stripping for no real reason and her been a worthless character. I could go on how awful the script of STID is. JJ did a beautiful job in making a good film with a mediocre script.

 

[BillJ]

Vulcans aspire to a state where they express no emotions. As we've seen as far back as TOS, they don't all succeed. Even Tuvok, the most 'Vulcan' of continuing Vulcan characters, had a troubled past where he failed to meet the ideal.

It's fans' incorrect preconceptions that are at fault.

I'd ask why Kolinahr even needs to exist if they are all so very good at controlling their emotions?

 

[Jonas Grumby]

I realize that NuSpock is not OldSpock...

Which might have been just fine, had the nuPowers That Be actually gone that route. Instead, they keep trotting out OldSpock to remind us that he is.

 

[Amasov]

I know this was probably just a throw out to the fans, but in the narrative, I didn't think this made much sense. When Khan reveals himself. The way he says. "My name. Is. Khaaaaan."He says it in such a way as if Kirk is supposed to know who that is.

[yt]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gnZJjNjMg98[/yt]

Overall, I prefer The Wrath of Khan.

Into Darkness just didn't compare. There was just such a sense of, "I've been through this before," throughout the movie. The reuse of lines and situations -- even if they were reversed -- just didn't do it for me.

 

[nureintier]

Vulcans aspire to a state where they express no emotions. As we've seen as far back as TOS, they don't all succeed. Even Tuvok, the most 'Vulcan' of continuing Vulcan characters, had a troubled past where he failed to meet the ideal.

This is true, but with Nuspock, it's as though he's not even trying. Not even a little bit. It doesn't even seem like he's aspiring to any such thing. The ears are the only thing reminding us he's part Vulcan. And that would be fine, if the movies didn't keep reminding us of that other Spock. But as it is, Spock is supposed to be the alien guy on the Enterprise, and he's just very alien-seeming and that bothers me a bit, what with the beating people up, throwing tantrums, crying, having a girlfriend (sorry, but it bothers me).

I know this was probably just a throw out to the fans, but in the narrative, I didn't think this made much sense. When Khan reveals himself. The way he says. "My name. Is. Khaaaaan."He says it in such a way as if Kirk is supposed to know who that is.

Yeah, I feel like he's talking to us (the audience), not to Kirk. We're the only ones who know who Khan is (except Spock Prime). But it still seems weird to me, the way it is.

I realize that NuSpock is not OldSpock...

Which might have been just fine, had the nuPowers That Be actually gone that route. Instead, they keep trotting out OldSpock to remind us that he is.

This.

 

[plynch]

Upstream I said how I just don't see how someone can prefer STID. I just do not get it. BUT . . .

I will say this in defense of nuSpock . . . he is a vastly different person than NimoySpock. Just barely did NOT save his mom, then his whole planet of people is annihilated. He is a messed up, troubled dude. All the Vulcans heretofore including Spock were, yes, adept at not showing emoting. Everything is off the table for this guy. I give him a pass on being so emo. I FARFARFAR prefer Nimoy and oldSpock, since he is my dear old friend from birth (mine). But I understand QuintoSpock.

PineKirk is a jackass, and the writers, to be kewl and hip, have taken away from me the hero-fully-formed that was Kirk. Everything needs a psychological backstory now, instead of just giving us a hero archetype to resonate with. My loss, and like I've said before, I'm 50/50 on even going to the next one. But I get nuSpock's emo-ness. He's damaged, man.

 

[Bry_Sinclair]

Personally, I find NuSpock too damaged. Alice Eve should've played Elizabeth Dehner, onboard to conduct a full psychological review of the crew to see if they were fit for duty--would've made sense to me .

 

[Cara007]

Personally, I find NuSpock too damaged. Alice Eve should've played Elizabeth Dehner, onboard to conduct a full psychological review of the crew to see if they were fit for duty--would've made sense to me .

Yes, That would have been good. Remember Skyfall. Bond taking some kind of test to see if he was fit for duty because M thought he must have been traumatised by the I was nearly dead experience. Bond did fail the test but M did not give a shit. However it was still a nice touch to Bond's character. He is not as perfect as we all think.

Spock taking that kind of test would have been very beneficial to his character but I am not surprised the writers did not even think of that. the film would not have been as fast paced as they wanted it.

 

[Bry_Sinclair]

Spock taking that kind of test would have been very beneficial to his character but I am not surprised the writers did not even think of that. the film would not have been as fast paced as they wanted it.

Gods forbid they slowed it down to do some in-depth character development and 'soul searching' when instead they can be showing explosions or women in their underwear

 

[BillJ]

Upstream I said how I just don't see how someone can prefer STID. I just do not get it. BUT . . .

Personally, I rank Star Trek Into Darkness as the third best Trek film behind The Motion Picture and The Undiscovered Country. I also really like The Wrath of Khan but it has some jarring plot lapses and is saved by scene chewing by Shatner and Montalban.

Is Star Trek Into Darkness a perfect movie? That would be a resounding "Hell No", but when I saw it at the theater it was the most fun I had with Trek since seeing The Undiscovered Country in theaters in 1991.

 

[plynch]

Upstream I said how I just don't see how someone can prefer STID. I just do not get it. BUT . . .

Is Star Trek Into Darkness a perfect movie? . . . it was the most fun I had with Trek since seeing The Undiscovered Country in theaters in 1991.

"Fun" I get. Thanks. That is a criterion by which someone could judge STID as "good." You have helped me grow. LLAP

 

[LOKAI of CHERON]

Spock taking that kind of test would have been very beneficial to his character but I am not surprised the writers did not even think of that. the film would not have been as fast paced as they wanted it.

Gods forbid they slowed it down to do some in-depth character development and 'soul searching' when instead they can be showing explosions or women in their underwear

So, setting aside my opinion STID has more than enough character development, must we accept absolutely every episode/movie/iteration of Star Trek has to be some kind of "serious" character piece laden down with morose "soul searching" and "deep philosophy"?

For me, STID returned TREK to its action adventure origins in the best way, it REALLY felt TOS was back on the silver screen. It was exciting, visually enthralling and tremendous fun. The underwear scene was funny IMHO - it certainly brought a smile to my face. And Alice Eve is as hot as hell to boot.

 

[BillJ]

So, setting aside my opinion STID has more than enough character development, must we accept absolutely every episode/movie/iteration of Star Trek has to be some kind of "serious" character piece laden down with morose "soul searching" and "deep philosophy"?

Fuck. No.

It was that type of shit that killed the franchise. What Berman tried to pass off as "soul searching" and "deep philosophy" ended up coming across as incredibly shallow and dull even by the standards of mid/late-90's television.

I like Star Trek as action-adventure.

To quote Picard from Encounter at Farpoint: "If we're going to be damned, let's be damned for what we really are."

 

[JarodRussell]

Upstream I said how I just don't see how someone can prefer STID. I just do not get it. BUT . . .

Is Star Trek Into Darkness a perfect movie? . . . it was the most fun I had with Trek since seeing The Undiscovered Country in theaters in 1991.

"Fun" I get. Thanks. That is a criterion by which someone could judge STID as "good." You have helped me grow. LLAP

I have more fun watching Spaceballs. It's the better scifi spoof movie.