Swearing In Star Trek XI?
- Thread starter StarMan
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I think Trek XI should be sworn in on a copy of The Making of Star Trek.
scotthm said:
This is a discussion about Star Trek, after all.North Pole-aris said:
Clearly an idiosyncratic definition of "reality" not found in any English dictionary.
What I described is as real as warp drive and transporters.
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Which is to say "not reality" as opposed to "reality." Pretty straightforward distinction.
Nope.
I would like folks to stop couching their preferences and opinions about such things in the language of "reality" though. If you don't want them to curse, say so - don't try to assert that "in reality..." thus and such a thing will be true in two centuries - which is what you did.
T'Cal said:
North Pole-aris said:
Why? Are you under the misimpression that "highly educated and trained professionals, leaders and diplomats" don't swear or use vulgar language when they're angry?
Again, this is my opinion, but professionals don't drop an F-bomb when things get tough and they are in front of their charges.
The hell they don't. I've worked for quite a few, both in the military and outside of the military, and it's always, *ALWAYS* when under extreme pressure and duress that a true leader will let the expletives drop to let the whole world know that things had better change EL PRONTO.
It's a fact of life. Don't be a Victorian Prude.
I find the use of swearing a childish and idiotic approach ... particularly when it comes to Trek.
Why ?
Humanity is supposed to be evolved beyond such stupidities in that era.
Using swearing in Trek is nothing more than an attempt to make the characters 'closer' to contemporary humans when in fact such attempts are utterly stupid and go against 'humans have evolved beyond such things'.
It's scifi and set in the future.
It's supposed to be different.
Why ?
Humanity is supposed to be evolved beyond such stupidities in that era.
Using swearing in Trek is nothing more than an attempt to make the characters 'closer' to contemporary humans when in fact such attempts are utterly stupid and go against 'humans have evolved beyond such things'.
It's scifi and set in the future.
It's supposed to be different.
Not lack of swearing perse... but this very attitude is what has helped to dislodge Trek from the every man.
All that evolved human foolishness didn't start until TNG (and TMP novel) anyhow.
I'm not saying you have to have them swear... but you do need to make sure the characters don't sound like saccharine coated robots with perfected (yet stilted) speech patterns. Introducing a swear here and there does tend to make it all sound naturalistic.
The fact is, in one form or another colorful expressions have been with the human species since we started using words and will likely develop more, not fewer in 200 years.
There's also no reason they shouldn't be like us in every manner - that was the original point of Star Trek - normal humans in a wagon train to the stars... not some adstaction of humanity.
Sharr
I’m no fan of foul language or vulgarity, but I think I’d almost rather see more of that in Trek XI than more so-called “evolved humanity.” Mankind may have advanced a great deal in the last couple thousand years but he hasn’t evolved much at all, and I see no reason that’s likely to change in the next couple of centuries.
Only so long as you try to maintain that the distinction between "reality" and opinion or preference isn't important. It's not like you really get to vote on that.
You're absolutely right. I have seen stories that take place "In our future" in which the humans are almost unreconizable as humans because they act in some "evolved and enlightened" manner which seems very alien to us. I find it very hard to relate to the characters from these films who acting in an "enlightened" manner. I know this is an extreme example and beyond the scope of the OP, but the fact still remains that people act in almost the exact same manner today as they did 250 years ago, and will probably continue to act the same 250 years from now.
It's called human nature.
"And I'd like people to stop calling for the vulgarization of Star Trek,"
You have been reading this thread
...
haven't you?
"but the fact still remains that people act in almost the exact same manner today as they did 250 years ago, and will probably continue to act the same 250 years from now."
Exactly, the Christian Taliban says, "Sure we used to be against blacks, women, Deaf, Jews, and Terra not being the center of the universe; but being against the Theory of Evolution. atheists, immigrants, Gays, Lesbians, Bisexuals, and Transgendered is different."
You have been reading this thread
...
haven't you?
"but the fact still remains that people act in almost the exact same manner today as they did 250 years ago, and will probably continue to act the same 250 years from now."
Exactly, the Christian Taliban says, "Sure we used to be against blacks, women, Deaf, Jews, and Terra not being the center of the universe; but being against the Theory of Evolution. atheists, immigrants, Gays, Lesbians, Bisexuals, and Transgendered is different."
"Human nature" is a combination of our biological predispositions and our socialization. If a culture discourages or devalues the expression of, say, empathy or of physical courage those human attributes will be less evident in institutions and in normative interactions.
Modern Western humans may not possess more native empathy or be more emotionally interdependent than were Romans a couple thousand years ago, but we do less feeding of human beings to wild animals for entertainment and we build rape crisis centers. Ancient human beings observing us as outsiders might well conclude that we're different from them in some fundamental ways.
Jolly_St_Picard said:
T'Cal said:
North Pole-aris said:
Why? Are you under the misimpression that "highly educated and trained professionals, leaders and diplomats" don't swear or use vulgar language when they're angry?
Again, this is my opinion, but professionals don't drop an F-bomb when things get tough and they are in front of their charges.
The hell they don't. I've worked for quite a few, both in the military and outside of the military, and it's always, *ALWAYS* when under extreme pressure and duress that a true leader will let the expletives drop to let the whole world know that things had better change EL PRONTO.
It's a fact of life. Don't be a Victorian Prude.
"To put this in Trek terms, my attitude is more Vulcan than Victorian," he said, turning the other cheek...
I'm not suggesting that leaders don't ever swear; I know most do. I'm saying that the better ones maintain their composure when they are in front of their charges, especially when the heat is on. Attitude is contagious, especially from a leader in those types of situations. A hyper-emotional attitude will spread fast, which can cause improper decisions, injuries, and loss of life. People under stress work less efficiently and effectively when they allow their emotions to surface unchecked.
I am speaking from experience here as a command-level supervisor with over 20 years of police experience. When the
hits the fan, it's all business or things go wrong really fast. I have worked for supervisors who yelled and cussed a blue streak during high stress incidents and they invariably come across as unpredictable, out of control, and unsure of themselves. The officers working for them had little or no respect for these managers (note: I do not call them leaders as they lead no one; they merely manage them). In high-stress situations, a leader who remains calm, cool, and collected is the one who is successful at getting his people to act appropriately and safely, which is the goal of any true leader.As for this movie, I have no problem with it showing young Kirk as a hot head in need of seasoning. That makes sense. In fact, if the Kobyoshi Maru scenario is indeed in this film, Kirk will probably fail it a few times before he rigs it. In the attempt before he cheats, I would expect him to throw a temper tantrum in which he yells, cusses a bit, kicks some furniture, or punches a wall while in front of the instructor and other students. Still, I'll be disappointed if the writers have him use an F-bomb. It's just not necessary.
Even today, you have number of humans who don't use swearing in their vocabulary at all and have more control over their emotions from the rest of the lot.
I personally perceive such behavior as actually civilized in comparison to plenty of people who resort to venting/swearing (which is simply another indication of poor emotional control and just a lack of mannerism).
The whole 'humans have evolved beyond old habits' has been proclaimed even in TOS ... but numerous contemporary signs of behavior were shown simply due to the fact that 20th century humans were creating a TV show set in the future (so several contradictions were bound to happen, although they could have been avoided).
You honestly think that a same approach to emotions and lack of making a sentence without a swear in it is going to prevail in the future ?
What some people say that is part of 'human nature' (like the need for venting and swearing) ... I merely attribute it to : 'acquired behavior'.
There are alternative options to making a point or showing who is 'top dog' in comparison to losing your composure.
A crude approach is not always the most effective one.
And personally, I pity those who resort to usage of such measures before trying to explore other options.
I personally perceive such behavior as actually civilized in comparison to plenty of people who resort to venting/swearing (which is simply another indication of poor emotional control and just a lack of mannerism).
The whole 'humans have evolved beyond old habits' has been proclaimed even in TOS ... but numerous contemporary signs of behavior were shown simply due to the fact that 20th century humans were creating a TV show set in the future (so several contradictions were bound to happen, although they could have been avoided).
You honestly think that a same approach to emotions and lack of making a sentence without a swear in it is going to prevail in the future ?
What some people say that is part of 'human nature' (like the need for venting and swearing) ... I merely attribute it to : 'acquired behavior'.
There are alternative options to making a point or showing who is 'top dog' in comparison to losing your composure.
A crude approach is not always the most effective one.
And personally, I pity those who resort to usage of such measures before trying to explore other options.
Let me be more concise -- Any damned fool can swear. It's how you do it, which counts. Cussing, when done properly, is an art.
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