Star Trek isn't real life, so I don't mind the nonsense when it comes up. Yes, my brain stutters a little bit when TNG crosses over with TOS and then the direct TNG follow-on Picard has the Discovery Enterprise but the interconnectivity is really cool.
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Gul Sengosts
Guest
Thanks for the clarification, I removed the spoiler tags again. It's just that I've been attacked for spoiling an old movie on another forum that I thought anyone remotedly interested in would have watched by now and I can see why some people disliked that who thought about watching it at some point. My thinking was that in case of doubt, better have them than not have them. But what matters is what's common practice on this forum and I'll try to adapt to that.
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Gul Sengosts
Guest
Yes I guess it's a personal thing and creators just won't be able to please everyone. Some will want an explanation for everything and that's fine, others (like me) may think there are things that don't need to be explained, or are even better left unexplained. Not saying one group has the better opinion, just tried to spark a debate about it.
Some things are better left unexplained, especially if you're going to resort to bullshit science, better leave it alone. Less is more.
I never liked the idea the Klingon Bird of Prey bridge was changed by the Vulcans in STIV. Because the labels on the buttons were all in Klingon (which Scotty struggled to read), and it became the blueprint for every Klingon ship set ever since. Nor is the ship big enough (although I'm aware it's never the same size twice) for an auxiliary bridge.
Did Starfleet really change the Enterprise-A bridge between STIV and V, then again for VI? It doesn't make sense as upgrades since they go from comfy carpets, good lighting and touchscreens to grimdark, bare metal floors and keypads. So was it, Discovery-style, always the same in-universe?
Ditto the Kelvinprise thinning out in Star Trek Beyond to look better when Krall shreads her, or the Enterprise-E gaining 100 new weapons ports and having her nacelles raised in NEM. In real life, the CG guys realised how bad the E-E's weapon coverage was when mapping out the space battle and altered accordingly. For the nacelle pylons, they just thought it looked better.
Going further on ship interiors, windows never line up inside and out. Picard's ready room window in Next Gen is impossible, yet we see it from outside meaning it's not a screen. Ten forward requires the E-D to be about twice it's official size to work. The Enterprise-A has an observation lounge with floor-to-ceiling windows in V, a reused conference lounge in VI with those TNG windows which aren't on the classic ship. Oh, and the E-A has 78 decks one day, and another day Discovery is an impossible massive hollow starship you could comfortably park a Death Star inside.
The closer you look, the more suspension of disbelief you need. I'm at Loony Tunes levels with Trek. And that's why I go, "it's only a TV show"
Did Starfleet really change the Enterprise-A bridge between STIV and V, then again for VI? It doesn't make sense as upgrades since they go from comfy carpets, good lighting and touchscreens to grimdark, bare metal floors and keypads. So was it, Discovery-style, always the same in-universe?
Ditto the Kelvinprise thinning out in Star Trek Beyond to look better when Krall shreads her, or the Enterprise-E gaining 100 new weapons ports and having her nacelles raised in NEM. In real life, the CG guys realised how bad the E-E's weapon coverage was when mapping out the space battle and altered accordingly. For the nacelle pylons, they just thought it looked better.
Going further on ship interiors, windows never line up inside and out. Picard's ready room window in Next Gen is impossible, yet we see it from outside meaning it's not a screen. Ten forward requires the E-D to be about twice it's official size to work. The Enterprise-A has an observation lounge with floor-to-ceiling windows in V, a reused conference lounge in VI with those TNG windows which aren't on the classic ship. Oh, and the E-A has 78 decks one day, and another day Discovery is an impossible massive hollow starship you could comfortably park a Death Star inside.
The closer you look, the more suspension of disbelief you need. I'm at Loony Tunes levels with Trek. And that's why I go, "it's only a TV show"
I try not to think too deeply about the whole universal translator thing, and all it’s accompanying complications.
I also purposefully don’t dwell too much on the artificial gravity sitch… and how that’s the one and ONLY one thing that never fails.
I also purposefully don’t dwell too much on the artificial gravity sitch… and how that’s the one and ONLY one thing that never fails.
Good point on the anti grav - certainly in OG and 90s Trek it wouldn't fail (although I think there might have been a moment or two in one of the films where they did something with it). Presumably IRL it's because of budgets?
The only time I can remember the anti grav going funky in an episode was the final episode of Disco Season 2 where Georgiou, Nahn, and Control are fighting and it glitches to allow them to go all Matrixy and run on the ceiling and that
Star Trek Into Darkness had the gravity fail, which highlighted for Starfleet the issues with a giant open atrium at the centre of the saucer section and narrow catwalks over enourmous engineering sections.
Before that, in Enterprise the gravity fail once (unexpected), and once (in the mirror universe) they (mirror Archer) use it to crush a Gorn Plus we see that there is a spot on the ship without gravity.
That can lead to showrunner sloppiness
I tend to loathe most attempts at in-universe explanations for the simple fact that they’re now a second time bringing attention to something that we know is either a matter of budget or simply bad writing — best left behind.
What’s worse, the explanations tend to change the spirit of the episode, making it worse still on the rewatch.
Then you get fans who argue for the changed (worse) universe and writers/producers catering to them. The tail wagging the dog. Which gets you diminishing returns and lots of disgust.
What’s worse, the explanations tend to change the spirit of the episode, making it worse still on the rewatch.
Then you get fans who argue for the changed (worse) universe and writers/producers catering to them. The tail wagging the dog. Which gets you diminishing returns and lots of disgust.
In universe explanations can be creative. Turning a problem over. Before recent computer advances, I think gamers were approached to solve protein folding, for example. Let us say you see a character you thought was killed off in D&D by a wraith. Have a voodoo doll thrown in the positive energy plane as you are about to be attacked. Either action alone would kill you…but together? You’re bulletproof
In the second pilot, "Where No Man Has Gone Before" after they hit the energy barrier:
So the gravity control switched to batteries, and gravity was down to point eight.
According to The Nitpickers Guide for Classic Trekkers, Phil Farrand, 1994, "Damage Tote Board", pages 318-319, 10. Number of episodes in which the Enterprise's atrtificial gravity degrades to "point eight": seven:
So in TOS the artificial gravity did get reduced several times.
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I like the ENT explanation, but honestly would have preferred if they had not. My top choice would have been to show Worf as a TOS Klingon, and not had ONE SINGLE CHARACTER comment on it. And the change should have been either instant when they got to the past, or when they beamed off Defiant.
I have a love/hate relationship with ENT season 4 - They are really fun episodes, but I had already been completely satisfied with the thought that it was all in a rewritten, post FC, post Borg Drone, post TCW interference timeline. They had so much technology early, and made a point out of it at times, like Daniel's quarters. I liked the "new timeline" approach (which leads quite nicely into Discovery and its slew of similar issues) more than I needed ENT to line up with all of the TOS stuff, since in my mind, it had clearly already replaced all of that TOS stuff, even the ship name being Enterprise.
I have a love/hate relationship with ENT season 4 - They are really fun episodes, but I had already been completely satisfied with the thought that it was all in a rewritten, post FC, post Borg Drone, post TCW interference timeline. They had so much technology early, and made a point out of it at times, like Daniel's quarters. I liked the "new timeline" approach (which leads quite nicely into Discovery and its slew of similar issues) more than I needed ENT to line up with all of the TOS stuff, since in my mind, it had clearly already replaced all of that TOS stuff, even the ship name being Enterprise.
Or maybe to keep all systems running rather than going at full draw, some have a reduction in consumption.It sounds like whenever the Enterprise switches gravity control to batteries, the standard gravity level is reduced to 0.8g. Maybe it saves on battery life...
I mean I'm all over the place. I'm a bit sick right now so I hope this makes more sense than a ramble.
On one hand: refits for the Federation starships never irked me as a 'cost' issue. Especially if it's just rewiring some things, adding a pod or two, replacing hull panels. That stuff is just getting more and more easier, and any space faring society worth its salt wouldn't have a problem with it. Mirandas serving up to the 2400s isn't a problem, so long as the warp core holds out (or is upgraded) and the metal isn't broken down from internal stresses, and even then....just make more.
Now what I would like is to see TNG, or Excelsior, or even Sovereign 'era' refits more. Most of that is new windows, livery, warp engines. That stuff doesn't seem expensive or labor intensive to swap out at all, at least not to the point to write off refits all together. Imagine a TNG miranda with phaser strips, the huge windows, the squat nacelles. Lovely~!
On the other, the fact that the CO, XO, CMO, CSO, CSciO, CE, or whatever are the ones going down to planets, or that we never see like, department heads, organized security, and the like, is irking me more and more as I grow up.
The stuff from TOS being all over the place, I mean, I apply it mostly to the whole series.
This wasn't some series thought out ahead of time by a Tolkien esque figure. Or even a guy with good organizational or military knowledge (and yes I know Coon and Roddenberry served, that doesn't make them authorities on military or police or other uniformed service organization, or a political one).
To this day we don't have solid answers on Federation economics, political organization, starfleet organization. Many branches aren't seen or thought of (Intelligence, Marines, Signals, so on).
When you take that into account, and your suspension of disbelief can accommodate that, that, 'oh, they're doing this by the seat of their pants', a lot of it becomes more enjoyable in my view. Even the senior staff running around getting into stupidly dangerous situations. I mean, in universe, Spock is always like, 'captain, if something happens to both of us...' well, then, don't go!
Or in TNG. Riker's job is managing the personnel and what happens *in* the ship. He shouldn't be beaming down with Yar or Gordi either. Or in Ent. Or in Ds9. Command Staff get the boring admin stuff for a reason. The talk is 'oh don't let them get you out of that chair' but all the Captain does is - sit in the chair and decides where they're going and what to do when they get there, then the department heads get the memo and give it to the grunts to execute the plan. By the time you're in the chair, you're staying in it unless it's a high level summit or meeting or party of some kind.
We should see more stuff like LT Cmdr Giotto running around, or, onboard marines, or intelligence actually doing intelligence work, but! This just means that maybe, a future series will hash this out more, or spiritual successors/inspired works take it into account.
On one hand: refits for the Federation starships never irked me as a 'cost' issue. Especially if it's just rewiring some things, adding a pod or two, replacing hull panels. That stuff is just getting more and more easier, and any space faring society worth its salt wouldn't have a problem with it. Mirandas serving up to the 2400s isn't a problem, so long as the warp core holds out (or is upgraded) and the metal isn't broken down from internal stresses, and even then....just make more.
Now what I would like is to see TNG, or Excelsior, or even Sovereign 'era' refits more. Most of that is new windows, livery, warp engines. That stuff doesn't seem expensive or labor intensive to swap out at all, at least not to the point to write off refits all together. Imagine a TNG miranda with phaser strips, the huge windows, the squat nacelles. Lovely~!
On the other, the fact that the CO, XO, CMO, CSO, CSciO, CE, or whatever are the ones going down to planets, or that we never see like, department heads, organized security, and the like, is irking me more and more as I grow up.
The stuff from TOS being all over the place, I mean, I apply it mostly to the whole series.
This wasn't some series thought out ahead of time by a Tolkien esque figure. Or even a guy with good organizational or military knowledge (and yes I know Coon and Roddenberry served, that doesn't make them authorities on military or police or other uniformed service organization, or a political one).
To this day we don't have solid answers on Federation economics, political organization, starfleet organization. Many branches aren't seen or thought of (Intelligence, Marines, Signals, so on).
When you take that into account, and your suspension of disbelief can accommodate that, that, 'oh, they're doing this by the seat of their pants', a lot of it becomes more enjoyable in my view. Even the senior staff running around getting into stupidly dangerous situations. I mean, in universe, Spock is always like, 'captain, if something happens to both of us...' well, then, don't go!
Or in TNG. Riker's job is managing the personnel and what happens *in* the ship. He shouldn't be beaming down with Yar or Gordi either. Or in Ent. Or in Ds9. Command Staff get the boring admin stuff for a reason. The talk is 'oh don't let them get you out of that chair' but all the Captain does is - sit in the chair and decides where they're going and what to do when they get there, then the department heads get the memo and give it to the grunts to execute the plan. By the time you're in the chair, you're staying in it unless it's a high level summit or meeting or party of some kind.
We should see more stuff like LT Cmdr Giotto running around, or, onboard marines, or intelligence actually doing intelligence work, but! This just means that maybe, a future series will hash this out more, or spiritual successors/inspired works take it into account.
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In general I think it’s usually good to add in universe explanations just because it hardens the illusion. There’s no need to explain makeup differences between eras but if it’s useful for a storyline to, why not?
The need to have humanoid aliens, if there were no budget constraints, could probably be reduced to the need for faces. Something doesn’t even necessarily need human arms and legs to be relatable, all they need is two eyes and a mouth arranged in a roughly human way, that move in sync with the character’s emotional state. That’s why stuff like Mass Effect and Bojack Horseman have no relatability problems.
The need to have humanoid aliens, if there were no budget constraints, could probably be reduced to the need for faces. Something doesn’t even necessarily need human arms and legs to be relatable, all they need is two eyes and a mouth arranged in a roughly human way, that move in sync with the character’s emotional state. That’s why stuff like Mass Effect and Bojack Horseman have no relatability problems.
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Depends on the audience member .
