Surviving Vulcan Elders.

[YARN]

Yep, the other thread got locked, but this is the other half of narrative elephant sitting in the middle of the writer's room. It's not a big deal, but it's amazing how we all feel compelled to deny that these stories even have the tiny or common flaws.

I feel the film has a ton of flaws, I just don't see Spock not going to change the timeline as one of them.

The knowledge he has of the "possible" future is NOT arcane knowledge that would alter this timeline. Rather, Old Spock is now a part of this timeline. The timeline has already been changed. Where it goes from here depends on how agents (Old Spock included) decide to act. He would only be changing the timeline in the mundane sense in which we all change the future when we act on the basis of information. Warning Starfleet about V'Ger would not undo an existing reality, because Old Spock's decisions in this timeline have yet to form what that reality will be. Old Spock's superior data about threats is supremely useful information which he could share to save billions of lives (let's bracket the question of time-traveling to save Vulcan).

 

[BillJ]

Right now, there is no time travel Genie in the new timeline. No one yet knows about the Guardian of Forever, no one knows about the slingshot maneuver outside of Spock. He has no ship and no capital to barter with outside of his knowledge of the future. And he's an old man.

Sounds like someone that could easily get taken advantage of if unscrupulous elements learned what he knows. You saw how easily Nero got the Red Matter from him.

I can come up with story reason after story reason why he would be reluctant to muck about in the timeline. It's not an white elephant.

 

[Nerys Myk]

Yep, the other thread got locked, but this is the other half of narrative elephant sitting in the middle of the writer's room. It's not a big deal, but it's amazing how we all feel compelled to deny that these stories even have the tiny or common flaws.

I feel the film has a ton of flaws, I just don't see Spock not going to change the timeline as one of them.

It would kind of defeat the purpose of the film.

 

[YARN]

Right now, there is no time travel Genie in the new timeline. No one yet knows about the Guardian of Forever, no one knows about the slingshot maneuver outside of Spock. He has no ship and no capital to barter with outside of his knowledge of the future. And he's an old man.

Sounds like someone that could easily get taken advantage of if unscrupulous elements learned what he knows. You saw how easily Nero got the Red Matter from him.

I can come up with story reason after story reason why he would be reluctant to muck about in the timeline. It's not an white elephant.

Forget time travel. No sling-shotting. No Guardian of Forever. No temporal rifts to slip through.

He knows that the Doomsday Machine is coming and that it will kill billions as it gobbles up entire solar systems. His knowledge of how to destroy would not allow anyone to create super-bombs or to hijack the Doomsday Machine for their own purposes. He simply knows how to defeat it and save entire solar systems from being destroyed. Why wouldn't he share this information? Why shouldn't he share this information? Spock also know when and where plagues and famines will strike which will allow Starfleet to allocate provisions for these times of need. Kodos does not massacre 4,000 people if there is no food shortage on Tarsus IV. These are just two Star Trek episodes which should not happen and would not involve dangerously advanced knowledge being shared. We're just just talking useful knowledge. Spock can also warn Denova (and many other colonies that got killed before the booger monsters got to Denova) to protect themselves with UV light. This would simply save lives. UV light is not a state secret, even in our world.

 

[lurok]

Doomsday reboot could be fun. As long as they don't make it another frikkin' CG cloud.

 

[Jackson_Roykirk]

Yep, the other thread got locked, but this is the other half of narrative elephant sitting in the middle of the writer's room. It's not a big deal, but it's amazing how we all feel compelled to deny that these stories even have the tiny or common flaws.

I, for one, never denied the flaws. I only denied that the flaws should necessarily stop someone from enjoying an otherwise fun and entertaining film (flaws and all).

*********

Switching gears, I've thought I good Abramsverse story could be told surrounding the surviving Vulcan peoples' search for a new homeworld. I think an interesting Vulcan antagonist could be developed who has a motive with which we could sympathize (the search for a new planet for the homeless Vulcan Refugees), but even though we have sympathy for his plight, he may use methods which we find disturbing.

...For example, a Vulcan who isn't beyond bending and breaking of moral rules (maybe even killing?) in the name of finding his people a home. A story such as this could be ripe with moral ambiguities, which can always make for good drama.

Although that may mirror the Palestinian-Israeli issue too much.

 

[BillJ]

Forget time travel. No sling-shotting. No Guardian of Forever. No temporal rifts to slip through.

...

Once again... if he lets it slip that he's from the future, unscrupulous elements could easily take advantage of him.

The only thing more I can say, is go read Engines of Destiny by the late Gene DeWeese. It's about how wrong best intentions can go when Scott beams Kirk away right before he "dies" aboard the Enterprise-B.

Entertaining read.

 

[YARN]

I, for one, never denied the flaws. I only denied that the flaws should necessarily stop someone from enjoying an otherwise fun and entertaining film (flaws and all).

In which case, we're in agreement.

*********

Switching gears, I've thought I good Abramsverse story could be told surrounding the surviving Vulcan peoples' search for a new homeworld. I think an interesting Vulcan antagonist could be developed who has a motive with which we could sympathize (the search for a new planet for the homeless Vulcan Refugees), but even though we have sympathy for his plight, he may use methods which we find disturbing.

...For example, a Vulcan who isn't beyond bending and breaking of moral rules (maybe even killing?) in the name of finding his people a home. A story such as this could be ripe with moral ambiguities, which can always make for good drama.

Although that may mirror the Palestinian-Israeli issue to much.

Good ideas! Nothing so detailed has occurred to me, but the loss of Vulcan is an itch waiting to be scratched.

 

[Nerys Myk]

Who exactly is denying the flaws? Mostly we like them because the flaws are outweighed by our enjoyment.

 

[YARN]

Forget time travel. No sling-shotting. No Guardian of Forever. No temporal rifts to slip through.

...

Once again... if he lets it slip that he's from the future, unscrupulous elements could easily take advantage of him.

The only thing more I can say, is go read Engines of Destiny by the late Gene DeWeese. It's about how wrong best intentions can go when Scott beams Kirk away right before he "dies" aboard the Enterprise-B.

Entertaining read.

Bill, the secret of Ultraviolet Radiation is not going to start a war. The secret to destroying the Doomsday Machine is is to let a damaged Starship do what it would do if Scotty didn't hold the thing together with duct tape. The solution to Tarsus IV is food.

You're desperate, it seems, to come up with reasons why Spock should not offer friendly advice regarding mundane solutions which would save untold (millions/billions of) lives.

Moreover, Spock does not have to tell everyone. He can selectively drop useful hints without giving away the secret of Red Matter.

Starfleet already knows he is from the future. Nu Spock and Nu Kirk and Nu Scotty know him as Old Spock and Old Spock is not in hiding. He is out in the open helping Vulcans resettle. Your concern about people knowing Spock is from the future is there either way.

 

[BillJ]

Starfleet already knows he is from the future.

We don't know what Starfleet knows.

The only one whose coming across as desperate is you. You keep serving it up and it keeps getting smashed back in your face. Then you try to spin it as people being inflexible because they don't share your views.

The universe suffered a wound with the loss of Vulcan and it will heal on its own terms. It doesn't need Spock running around trying protect every person from every tragedy that is about to transpire.

 

[Ovation]

Besides, who's to say Spock doesn't give out each and every warning necessary to stave off the above? We don't have to watch it unfold on the screen, do we? Nor do we need to have characters comment on any of the incidents in question, either.

Problem solved.

 

[BillJ]

The solution to Tarsus IV is food.

Since Kodos was executing people before the food supply ran out, I'd say that food wasn't the answer. Besides, the incident on Tarsus IV would have already happened in 2258.

 

[YARN]

We don't know what Starfleet knows.

We know that three Starfleet Officers know. We know they had to file reports/logs about this incident. The story says nothing about Spock going into hiding. Nu Spock encounters him out in the open. The burden of proof is on the one who would suppose that Starfleet does not know.

The only one whose coming across as desperate is you.

I'm doing this for fun. Why are you?

The game here is dialectic, not rhetoric. I am not here to see if everyone simply agrees with my intuitions or appetitive preferences. I am here to offer arguments, ask questions, and to test them against your reasons. When compelled by reason, I submit.

You keep serving it up and it keeps getting smashed back in your face.

I expect disagreement. Disagreement does not discourage me. Only reasons discourage me.

When a poster says, "Yes, these are flaws, but this is no reason to dislike the film" I am completely disarmed, because I have no good reason to disagree with that sentiment.

You, however, have boasted that you can come up with "reason after reason" that Spock should not offer even the uncontroversial varieties of assistance I have mentioned. I find this incredulous. I am here to put your boast to the dialectical test.

Then you try to spin it as people being inflexible because they don't share your views.

It's not spin, if that is the case.

The universe suffered a wound with the loss of Vulcan and it will heal on its own terms. It doesn't need Spock running around trying protect every person from every tragedy that is about to transpire.

Forget Vulcan. Again, forget time travel. Think forward.

You are walking by a house. You see a child drowning. You can swim. The gate is open. Do you intervene?

You know that there is a bomb in a building that will go off in three days. Do you warn the authorities?

You're walking next to a blind person who is about to step of a ledge. Do you warn him?

 

[Awesome Possum]

I can see Old Spock giving advice if Starfleet truly needed it, but I don't see him preemptively taking out every single threat to the Federation. Especially since this is a different timeline and his knowledge only applies to a timeline with ships that are smaller and seem to be less advanced. For all we know the new Enterprise could stop the Doomsday Machine will one shot. It would also limit the Federation and interfere with their development. They need to learn how to stop some threats on their own.

 

[BillJ]

Forget Vulcan. Again, forget time travel. Think forward.

I think the second sentence in my post deals with this...

It doesn't need Spock running around trying protect every person from every tragedy that is about to transpire.

You are walking by a house. You see a child drowning. You can swim. The gate is open. Do you intervene?

You know that there is a bomb in a building that will go off in three days. Do you warn the authorities?

You're walking next to a blind person who is about to step of a ledge. Do you warn him?

Do I have foreknowledge of these events, six months? Five years? What events am I changing down the road because I decide to change how the timeline unfolds?

The impulse to do things "in the moment" is far different than using foreknowledge to manipulate events so the outcome is more to your personal satisfaction.

 

[Awesome Possum]

Forget Vulcan. Again, forget time travel. Think forward.

You are walking by a house. You see a child drowning. You can swim. The gate is open. Do you intervene?

You know that there is a bomb in a building that will go off in three days. Do you warn the authorities?

You're walking next to a blind person who is about to step of a ledge. Do you warn him?

But you can't remove time travel from Spock's issue. In his case, he knows his younger self dealt with those issues. He learned from them and caused him to become the person he became. By doing it himself, he's making it so his younger self can't.

 

[YARN]

I can see Old Spock giving advice if Starfleet truly needed it, but I don't see him preemptively taking out every single threat to the Federation. Especially since this is a different timeline and his knowledge only applies to a timeline with ships that are smaller and seem to be less advanced. For all we know the new Enterprise could stop the Doomsday Machine will one shot. It would also limit the Federation and interfere with their development. They need to learn how to stop some threats on their own.

Like I said before, Spock has to do the risk/reward analysis with regard to this information. I don't think he's obligated to give up every fact about the future.

But why allow needless plagues and famines to be met without administrative support?

Why should Spock chance supposing that the new Constellation will pack enough of a wallop to stop the machine (she is of the same class as Enterprise) with Commoder Decker's first assault? Seeing how ineffectual the Enterprise was against a mining ship (along with the rest of the fleet), we know that the Federation is not advanced beyond Old Spock's level of technology (they didn't even have the formula for transwarp beaming!). And even if we supposed that Decker would take out the DDM with one shot. What about the countless star systems that will be destroyed so long as Starfleet is ignorant of this threat?

 

[BillJ]

What about the countless star systems that will be destroyed so long as Starfleet is ignorant of this threat?

But what else changes in the process? That is the thing you can never determine until you've committed to interfering with an event that has already unfolded.

Take your drowning child in the swimming pool. Spur of the moment, I would rush in and save him without a second thought. But five years later? I remember Timmy having a bitching pool where he ended up drowning. So I decide to go back and save him so my younger self can keep using that sweet ass pool.

But, Timmy's parents decided to have another child after Timmy's death. Without Timmy's death that child would have likely never existed. So I saved one person but I sentenced another to non-existence.

 

[Awesome Possum]

I can see Old Spock giving advice if Starfleet truly needed it, but I don't see him preemptively taking out every single threat to the Federation. Especially since this is a different timeline and his knowledge only applies to a timeline with ships that are smaller and seem to be less advanced. For all we know the new Enterprise could stop the Doomsday Machine will one shot. It would also limit the Federation and interfere with their development. They need to learn how to stop some threats on their own.

Like I said before, Spock has to do the risk/reward analysis with regard to this information. I don't think he's obligated to give up every fact about the future.

But why allow needless plagues and famines to be met without administrative support?

Why should Spock chance supposing that the new Constellation will pack enough of a wallop to stop the machine (she is of the same class as Enterprise) with Commoder Decker's first assault? Seeing how ineffectual the Enterprise was against a mining ship (along with the rest of the fleet), we know that the Federation is not advanced beyond Old Spock's level of technology (they didn't even have the formula for transwarp beaming!). And even if we supposed that Decker would take out the DDM with one shot. What about the countless star systems that will be destroyed so long as Starfleet is ignorant of this threat?

It isn't his job to protect the Federation from threats that it is capable to stopping. He won't be around forever and they can't depend on him to solve all their problems.