Surviving Vulcan Elders.

[F. King Daniel]

Look at what Daniels' attempt to protect Archer caused in "Shockwave" or Braxton's attempt to fix history in "Future's End". Look what happened after "Endgame" in the novelverse.

Say Spock warns Starfleet about the Borg. Starfleet investigates a century earlier than the Hansons' did in the Prime universe and try something Kirk-like and reckless which brings the collective down on an unprepared Federation. Say he warns them about the Bajoran wormhole, which leads to an earlier Federation/Cardassian war. Say he warns Deneva about the parasites, and a century later a survivor's child starts experimenting with the omega and renders the entire alpha quadrant impassable to warp ships.

I'm not saying Spock 100% shouldn't interfere, but I can see why he may choose not to.

 

[YARN]

Eh, tell that to any Science Ficton story that subscribes to "don't step on a butterfly".

You're not thinking about this straight. Suppose a butterfly landed on your nose in a moment. Now, I imagine that you probably would not kill it, if you could resist reflect impulse, but you would not do so for some irrational fear that your destruction of one insect would destroy future civilizations. And yet, we must grant that it is possible that killing a butterfly in the present could have the same effect on some far of future as some far past butterfly might have on our present.

So why wouldn't you worry about killing a butterfly today?

Well, for one, you're already here, so killing the butterfly would not retroactively end the world as you know it. For another, although such impacts are possible, they are highly implausible, and impossible to know. Indeed, maybe NOT killing the butterfly, or not buying an Ipad, or not ordering a bacon double cheeseburger would have the same effect on some poor future civilization. Your epistemic vantage point is so weak that you have no grounds to kill an insect or save an insect solely on the grounds of concerns for far off future civilizations.

You should recall that the nu-Trek universe is a tangent universe. There is no future to destroy here and the future it would have had has been radically altered by Nero.

Spock, if he is logical, must consider that giving or withholding his knowledge could have grave impacts, and he should do a risk analysis to best determine which alternate future facts to share with the UFP.

Not sharing anything via the butterfly principle, however, is irrationally conservative and neglects the fact that not sharing is also an act. Now given that Spock know that bad things will happen to Deneva if he doesn't speak up (i.e., the whole colony will be wiped out) and tell them to protect themselves with UV light. He has a known HORRIBLE negative outcome involved with NOT acting, and no information about would happen if he helps out. Indeed, his only concern with acting can be "unforseen future ramifications" of the variety that all our acts have. The only logical course of action for Spock is to warn Deneva.

The odds are pretty even, if you cure a plague, that one of those who died in the time line, lives in this timeline and grows up to become he next Hitler and is personaly responsible for the death of just as many millions as were saved by curing the plague.

This is not only ridiculous, but morally repugnant. It is, in fact, shameful. By your reasoning, we should not cure treatable diseases today, because hey, it's even money that the next Hitler will die prematurely if we do nothing.

If we really thought this way, we would simply assume that all future consequences are equal and simply do nothing to help other human beings.

We have to look no further than Edith Keeler herself, it was a good honorable, noble thing, and dfinitely the right thing to do to save her life, but, look what she went on to cause when she wasn't killed. So, I assume you believe City on the Edge of Forever is a weak episode, since it is TOS and uses the very same argument?

You couldn't have it more wrong.

The Edith Keeler argument counts in my favor. They have knowledge of what will happen if she does not die. It is because they have certain knowledge that they are compelled to act. Certain knowledge means you are bound to act. In this case they know what will happen in either case (letting her live or die), so the only tension has to do with the moral problem of suffering an innocent.

Spock has solid knowledge of BAD things that will certainly happen if he does not act, so he is bound to share at least some of his knowledge. On the other side, there are mere butterfly possibilities that would prevent him from doing this. The weight of the impact combined with the certainty of it happening as opposed to the unknown weight of non-action with unknown, means that he acts. For all I know, walking to work today will someday cause a war on Mars, but I don't sweat that mystery detail because I know that if I don't go to work, I will most certainly be fired.

 

[Franklin]

Look at what Daniels' attempt to protect Archer caused in "Shockwave" or Braxton's attempt to fix history in "Future's End". Look what happened after "Endgame" in the novelverse.

Say Spock warns Starfleet about the Borg. Starfleet investigates a century earlier than the Hansons' did in the Prime universe and try something Kirk-like and reckless which brings the collective down on an unprepared Federation. Say he warns them about the Bajoran wormhole, which leads to an earlier Federation/Cardassian war. Say he warns Deneva about the parasites, and a century later a survivor's child starts experimenting with the omega and renders the entire alpha quadrant impassable to warp ships.

I'm not saying Spock 100% shouldn't interfere, but I can see why he may choose not to.

I'd think of it as a matter of risk. You've described risky scenarios where the payoff could be either great good or disaster on a galactic scale. So yes, it's probably not good to interfere, here.

Now if V-ger shows up at Earth's doorstep, or the whale probe does, and the threat is immediate and time is short, I could see Spock Prime saying, "I may be of some assistance, here."

Spock Prime could be like a firefighter helping put out fires when the occur, rather than the cop on the beat, trying to prevent or deter things from happening.

 

[Dale Sams]

So long as it's Old Spock making the choices. Let the other Vulcans in on things and they'll be debating for centuries exactly as in this thread.

 

[Sindatur]

Eh, tell that to any Science Ficton story that subscribes to "don't step on a butterfly".

You're not thinking about this straight. Suppose a butterfly landed on your nose in a moment. Now, I imagine that you probably would not kill it, if you could resist reflect impulse, but you would not do so for some irrational fear that your destruction of one insect would destroy future civilizations. And yet, we must grant that it is possible that killing a butterfly in the present could have the same effect on some far of future as some far past butterfly might have on our present.

So why wouldn't you worry about killing a butterfly today?

Well, for one, you're already here, so killing the butterfly would not retroactively end the world as you know it. For another, although such impacts are possible, they are highly implausible, and impossible to know. Indeed, maybe NOT killing the butterfly, or not buying an Ipad, or not ordering a bacon double cheeseburger would have the same effect on some poor future civilization. Your epistemic vantage point is so weak that you have no grounds to kill an insect or save an insect solely on the grounds of concerns for far off future civilizations.

You should recall that the nu-Trek universe is a tangent universe. There is no future to destroy here and the future it would have had has been radically altered by Nero.

Spock, if he is logical, must consider that giving or withholding his knowledge could have grave impacts, and he should do a risk analysis to best determine which alternate future facts to share with the UFP.

Not sharing anything via the butterfly principle, however, is irrationally conservative and neglects the fact that not sharing is also an act. Now given that Spock know that bad things will happen to Deneva if he doesn't speak up (i.e., the whole colony will be wiped out) and tell them to protect themselves with UV light. He has a known HORRIBLE negative outcome involved with NOT acting, and no information about would happen if he helps out. Indeed, his only concern with acting can be "unforseen future ramifications" of the variety that all our acts have. The only logical course of action for Spock is to warn Deneva.

The odds are pretty even, if you cure a plague, that one of those who died in the time line, lives in this timeline and grows up to become he next Hitler and is personaly responsible for the death of just as many millions as were saved by curing the plague.

This is not only ridiculous, but morally repugnant. It is, in fact, shameful. By your reasoning, we should not cure treatable diseases today, because hey, it's even money that the next Hitler will die prematurely if we do nothing.

If we really thought this way, we would simply assume that all future consequences are equal and simply do nothing to help other human beings.

We have to look no further than Edith Keeler herself, it was a good honorable, noble thing, and dfinitely the right thing to do to save her life, but, look what she went on to cause when she wasn't killed. So, I assume you believe City on the Edge of Forever is a weak episode, since it is TOS and uses the very same argument?

You couldn't have it more wrong.

The Edith Keeler argument counts in my favor. They have knowledge of what will happen if she does not die. It is because they have certain knowledge that they are compelled to act. Certain knowledge means you are bound to act. In this case they know what will happen in either case (letting her live or die), so the only tension has to do with the moral problem of suffering an innocent.

Spock has solid knowledge of BAD things that will certainly happen if he does not act, so he is bound to share at least some of his knowledge. On the other side, there are mere butterfly possibilities that would prevent him from doing this. The weight of the impact combined with the certainty of it happening as opposed to the unknown weight of non-action with unknown, means that he acts. For all I know, walking to work today will someday cause a war on Mars, but I don't sweat that mystery detail because I know that if I don't go to work, I will most certainly be fired.

I strongly disagree that Spock should just out and start playing God and saping the universe in his own image, nothing could be more foolish.

As Franklin says, each piece of information should be weighed. You don't give a Caveman a cache of M16s or Nuclear Weapons and expect anything other than chaos to result, because the Caveman didn't earn the Technology by evolving and learning it on their own. Just as the Vulcans in Enterprise didn't just hand over everything about Space Travel to Earth and The Prime Directive says you don't do things like that.

I never meant to imply that Spock shouldn't share anything of his knowledge of the future, I'm just saying he shouldn't have verbal diarhea and spit out everything he knows, plus, as you point out, the prior history is not written in stone, the action that should have been taken in the Prime Time Line, could now lead to horrible circumstances. What Spock shares, should be carefully parsed out after consideration and weighing.

 

[YARN]

Sindatur,

It appears that we're both in the middle now, so I won't belabor this much longer - no point in arguing when you've more or less arrived at agreement.

I'll offer a some parting comments here.

I strongly disagree that Spock should just out and start playing God and saping the universe in his own image, nothing could be more foolish.

In that case, I suppose it's a good thing that I didn't recommend that he do that.

As Franklin says, each piece of information should be weighed.

I've also said that he'd have to perform risk analysis.

You don't give a Caveman a cache of M16s or Nuclear Weapons and expect anything other than chaos to result, because the Caveman didn't earn the Technology by evolving and learning it on their own.

I suppose it's a good thing that the UFP is not comprised of cavemen then.

If you're in ancient Rome, do you warn them about lead poisoning?

Just as the Vulcans in Enterprise didn't just hand over everything about Space Travel to Earth and The Prime Directive says you don't do things like that.

There is no prime directive, temporal or otherwise, which would block Spock from sharing some very useful information in this case.

Humans were exploring in Trek, because they wanted to learn. They freely exchanged technologies with warp-capable cultures. They benefited quite a bit from these exchanges. Spock could help the UFP avoid needless deaths and deadly misunderstandings.

Again, Spock is in a world which is very much like his own. It even has another younger version of him in it. This is not some delicate alien prewarp culture, but his own culture and society which he is in here.

I never meant to imply that Spock shouldn't share anything of his knowledge of the future,

Perhaps, but your argument was a bit overstated. When that happens you tend to get committed to stronger claims than you want to make.

I don't want to paint you into a corner here, but I'd also like to note that I wasn't simply straw-manning you either.

I'm just saying he shouldn't have verbal diarhea and spit out everything he knows,

No, but he sure knows a lot. Just think of how many redshirts who don't need to die in this universe, how many alien species they need not accidentally harm, how many diseases he can help cure, etc., etc.

I agree, that he shouldn't just sketch up the design for quantum torpedoes and share them with everyone, but that's where risk-analysis comes in.

plus, as you point out, the prior history is not written in stone, the action that should have been taken in the Prime Time Line, could now lead to horrible circumstances. What Spock shares, should be carefully parsed out after consideration and weighing.

Sure, but the mere fact that there could be horrible circumstances is no reason not to act when he knows, positively, that he could save lives.

And again, I think part of what can keep this universe interesting is that they now have another good reason why their 5-year voyage can be much different than TOS (i.e., they don't have to make the same mistakes that TOS made).

I find it interesting that they've allowed for the existence of this walking spoiler alert in the nu-Trek verse. If I were these guys, I might kill him off to avoid the potential problem of Old Spock having answers that he should be sharing with UFP.

 

[Sindatur]

Sure, The Feds aren't cavemen in TOS times, but, they are a good 100 years behind Spock's technical know-how, so, if Spock were to try and shape the Galaxy in his image, by spitting ot everything and getting them 100 years further in technology in a matter of a couple of a years, it could be very catastrophic. Pointing out the Prime Directive, wasn't meant to say Spcok would be breaking rules/laws, but, there is a reason you let Civlizations drive their own course, and that's because giving knowledge/technology that wasn't earned and properly understood (And the gravity of that knoledge appreciated) can have disastrous outcomes

I do agree, he should share some stuff sparingly, to avoid some of the worst stuff from happening, but, it should definitely be sparingly and with proper weighing, because the more he decides to "guide" them into the future quicker, the more likely he will make a bad choice that leads to a disastrous outcome.

I don't think the writers need to kill hm off to prevent the "Spoilers for the Future". I, in fact, think they should use him to impart some information for a nobel/good cause (As in saving Edith Keeler) and have it lead to unexpected dire consequences

 

[BillJ]

I think Spock Prime should intercept and merge with V'ger.

 

[shapeshifter]

^ lol

I agree the primary reason for Spock to share his knowledge would be attempting to save lives.

For him to see an incident approaching which he knows is going to cost lives but takes no action is unconscionable, IMO. I just cannot, under ANY circumstances, not see him siding with the needs of the soon to be dying if he doesn't act.

Of course there could there be negative consequences for choosing such a path but at least those consequences could then be faced and dealt with normally. What ever results occur from doing the right thing is a better result than living with the guilt and corruption of his characters integrity by not attempting to help where possible.

Look at what Daniels' attempt to protect Archer caused in "Shockwave" or Braxton's attempt to fix history in "Future's End". Look what happened after "Endgame" in the novelverse.

This is why I wish the Nuverse was NOT the same one as the ENT version we saw. Because that connection implies single timeline time-travel could be possible in the Nuverse and I do not want it to be so, for the very reasons you state. I want future timetravel in Trek to be remain based on the multiverse theory; from now on all timetravel leads to a different branched reality just as happened in ST. Goodbye paradoxes and reset buttons forever.

Say Spock warns Starfleet about the Borg. Starfleet investigates a century earlier than the Hansons' did in the Prime universe and try something Kirk-like and reckless which brings the collective down on an unprepared Federation. Say he warns them about the Bajoran wormhole, which leads to an earlier Federation/Cardassian war. Say he warns Deneva about the parasites, and a century later a survivor's child starts experimenting with the omega and renders the entire alpha quadrant impassable to warp ships.

I'm not saying Spock 100% shouldn't interfere, but I can see why he may choose not to.

Spock could take steps to prevent premature exposure to threats he intends to intervene in...

I'd think of it as a matter of risk. You've described risky scenarios where the payoff could be either great good or disaster on a galactic scale. So yes, it's probably not good to interfere, here.

Now if V-ger shows up at Earth's doorstep, or the whale probe does, and the threat is immediate and time is short, I could see Spock Prime saying, "I may be of some assistance, here."

Spock Prime could be like a firefighter helping put out fires when the occur, rather than the cop on the beat, trying to prevent or deter things from happening.

[EM He could prepare a series of files on a SFH computer with the prescribed solution enclosed which will not allow access until a pre-specified stardate.

Well, Spock was the very first character to warn us of the dangers of contaminating the timeline back in 1966 with Tomorrow is Yesterday.

But that was a closed timeline where you could create causal paradoxes by killing your grandfather or breaking up mom and dad in 1955. With a branching timeline there are no dangers to the original timeline, because you're not in it anymore - indeed the only person in the nu-Trek verse who ever was is old-Spock.

I wish we knew for sure the old TT rules are permanently retired. Nutreks connection, as mentioned above, to ENT complicates the severing by association.

 

[RPJOB]

So it's important enough for Spock to try and save Vulcan and Earth but everyone that died because of Nomad (four billion inhabitants of the Malurian system), The Doomsday machine (at least two star systems and probably more not to mention the threat to the Orion system), the space ameba (billions of inhabitants of Gamma 7A system and the Intrepid) should just hope that Kirk just happens to be in the right place at the right time?

Don't forget, in regards to the number of surviving Vulcans, both Spocks were still of the opinion that the race was in danger of going extinct. If there were millions of survivors on hundreds of planets you'd think that one of them would have thought of that by then, not to mention the Federation. Would it really be the best thing for the survivors to be dumped on a new colony planet as opposed to one of the older, more established colonies? "Sorry you just lost your planet and most of your people. We're going to stick you over here on this uninhabited planet so you can start over from scratch." Even for a Vulcan that's pretty cold. It does make more sense if it's intended to be a new homeworld though.

 

[Captain Atkin]

The best thing that Spock Prime can do is find a way back to his own timeline, in the 24th century. He simply doesn't belong there. He wished nu-Spock good luck. Now it is time for him to find a way home.

 

[RPJOB]

Perhaps he isn't trying to get home because he knows it is no longer there? He's not the one that

It's Nu-Spock who says this:

The contrary, Nero's very presence has altered the flow of history, beginning with the attack on the USS Kelvin, culminating in the events of today, thereby creating an entire new chain of incidents, that cannot be anticipated by either party.

An alternate reality.

Precisely.

Whatever our lives might have been, if the time continuum was disrupted...our destinies have changed.

Old-Spock doesn't say anything on the matter one way or the other. Spock may have decided to stay to help the Vulcan survivors simply because he doesn't have anywhere else to go. If he had the chance you'd think he'd be concerned about the survivors of Romulus who don't have the Federation backing them up.

 

[Captain Atkin]

Perhaps he isn't trying to get home because he knows it is no longer there? He's not the one that

It's Nu-Spock who says this:

The contrary, Nero's very presence has altered the flow of history, beginning with the attack on the USS Kelvin, culminating in the events of today, thereby creating an entire new chain of incidents, that cannot be anticipated by either party.

An alternate reality.

Precisely.

Whatever our lives might have been, if the time continuum was disrupted...our destinies have changed.

Old-Spock doesn't say anything on the matter one way or the other. Spock may have decided to stay to help the Vulcan survivors simply because he doesn't have anywhere else to go. If he had the chance you'd think he'd be concerned about the survivors of Romulus who don't have the Federation backing them up.

Well, the comic book tie-in for the movie (Countdown) showed that the 24th century as we know it still existed after Spock and Nero disappeared. I think it is safe to say the the 24th century he knew still existed. Plus, old Spock knows about alternate universes from past experiences.

 

[RPJOB]

Spock also knows of the universe being overwritten by changes to the past (City on the Edge of Forever and probably First Contact.) You would think that if he wanted to minimize his contamination of this new timeline he'd be working to get back to his own. It's not like taking care of 10,000 Vulcans is that big a job. It's a good sized town worth of people, not even a city. Even if there aren't other Vulcan colony worlds (and it doesn't appear that there are otherwise why not settle the survivors on one of them rather than finding a new wold for them to live on) the Federation could probably have a colony up and running in a matter of months if not weeks. All he's doing by sticking around is making himself a target and putting those around him in danger.

 

[Dale Sams]

Spock also knows of the universe being overwritten by changes to the past (City on the Edge of Forever and probably First Contact.) You would think that if he wanted to minimize his contamination of this new timeline he'd be working to get back to his own. It's not like taking care of 10,000 Vulcans is that big a job. It's a good sized town worth of people, not even a city. Even if there aren't other Vulcan colony worlds (and it doesn't appear that there are otherwise why not settle the survivors on one of them rather than finding a new wold for them to live on) the Federation could probably have a colony up and running in a matter of months if not weeks. All he's doing by sticking around is making himself a target and putting those around him in danger.

Why is I'm the only one who sees the impotance of Kirk and all being in the right spot at the right time to stop Lazarus, The Space Ameoba, the Cloud Monster and The Doomsday Machine? V'Ger too I suppose...and at some point, somebody better start cloning some whales damnit.

You can't just leave some notes and hope it gets done, he should stick around for as long as he can and help.*

*Heh. and the first thing he does is to say "You and that Vulcan guy gotta have a bromance!!" Something the universe doesn't seem to think is a priority. At least nothing I've seen from the trailers indicates so. If anything the universe replaced Kirk with Uhura.

 

[UFO]

If anything the universe replaced Kirk with Uhura.

Captain Uhura reporting for duty!

 

[RPJOB]

Spock also knows of the universe being overwritten by changes to the past (City on the Edge of Forever and probably First Contact.) You would think that if he wanted to minimize his contamination of this new timeline he'd be working to get back to his own. It's not like taking care of 10,000 Vulcans is that big a job. It's a good sized town worth of people, not even a city. Even if there aren't other Vulcan colony worlds (and it doesn't appear that there are otherwise why not settle the survivors on one of them rather than finding a new wold for them to live on) the Federation could probably have a colony up and running in a matter of months if not weeks. All he's doing by sticking around is making himself a target and putting those around him in danger.

Why is I'm the only one who sees the impotance of Kirk and all being in the right spot at the right time to stop Lazarus, The Space Ameoba, the Cloud Monster and The Doomsday Machine? V'Ger too I suppose...and at some point, somebody better start cloning some whales damnit.

You can't just leave some notes and hope it gets done, he should stick around for as long as he can and help.*

*Heh. and the first thing he does is to say "You and that Vulcan guy gotta have a bromance!!" Something the universe doesn't seem to think is a priority. At least nothing I've seen from the trailers indicates so. If anything the universe replaced Kirk with Uhura.

You're not the only one. They branched off a universe where all of those things are out there waiting. Spock's more concerned with setting up housekeeping with the population of a small town. How many millions or billions is he putting at risk?

 

[R. Star]

Perhaps he isn't trying to get home because he knows it is no longer there? He's not the one that

It's Nu-Spock who says this:

The contrary, Nero's very presence has altered the flow of history, beginning with the attack on the USS Kelvin, culminating in the events of today, thereby creating an entire new chain of incidents, that cannot be anticipated by either party.

An alternate reality.

Precisely.

Whatever our lives might have been, if the time continuum was disrupted...our destinies have changed.

Old-Spock doesn't say anything on the matter one way or the other. Spock may have decided to stay to help the Vulcan survivors simply because he doesn't have anywhere else to go. If he had the chance you'd think he'd be concerned about the survivors of Romulus who don't have the Federation backing them up.

I always interpreted that to mean the "prime" timeline was either just gone or inaccessible at best. Though NuSpock does imply heavily it's gone.

 

[YARN]

Spock's more concerned with setting up housekeeping with the population of a small town. How many millions or billions is he putting at risk?

Yep, the other thread got locked, but this is the other half of narrative elephant sitting in the middle of the writer's room. It's not a big deal, but it's amazing how we all feel compelled to deny that these stories even have the tiny or common flaws.

I think the last film was OK, but they did kind of write themselves into a spoiler/power-corner by keeping around a guy who has seen the next hundred years or so. No doubt they didn't kill him, just in case they wanted to insert another cameo, but it would have been better to axe Old Spock (Spock is dead long live nu-Spock!) to avoid these questions. Or better yet, they shouldn't have worried about the soft-reboot and sale-pitch and just started a new TOS story at year-one without importing Old Trek baggage. A clean break should be clean.

 

[BillJ]

Yep, the other thread got locked, but this is the other half of narrative elephant sitting in the middle of the writer's room. It's not a big deal, but it's amazing how we all feel compelled to deny that these stories even have the tiny or common flaws.

I feel the film has a ton of flaws, I just don't see Spock not going to change the timeline as one of them.