Surely Detracting From the Borgs Perfection was a Good Thing?

[Guy Gardener]

SEVEN: You are a peculiar creature, Neelix.
NEELIX: Thanks, I think. Ah! Here it is. Oh, this will be perfect for containing a small amount of protomatter. Last time I used this little wonder I nearly lost it to the Kazon.
SEVEN: The Kazon. Species three two nine.
NEELIX: You're familiar with them.
SEVEN: The Borg encountered a Kazon colony in the Gand Sector, grid six nine two zero.
NEELIX: Were they assimilated?
SEVEN: Their biological and technological distinctiveness was unremarkable. They were unworthy of assimilation.
NEELIX: I didn't realise the Borg were so discriminating.
SEVEN: Why assimilate a species that would detract from perfection?
NEELIX: Good point. Well, if you'll excuse me, I'm needed in the shuttlebay. Pleasant regenerating.

In Mortal Coil, when Seven said that to Neelix, I just assumed at the time that they were shit. That they had zero to offer. But "detract" doesn't mean zero sum. It means minus sum. Adding the kazon to the Borgs Hive Mnd would fuck them up like if you of I knocked back a quart of antifreeze (not that we haven't all been there sometimes.). but what makes the Kazon so "unpalatable"?

1. They adapt to master others technology as if it was their own. They could master the hive mind and be running it within hours after a significant number had been introduced as a voting block in the collective.

2. They chucked off slavery. Bloodily. Someone tells the kazon to call them "master" and that "someone" ends up being stabbed in the throat. Their "digitally stored personalities" would go on the run inside the collective, self replicating with abandon to avoid deletion till there's trillions of impressions of each kazon completely amok, when quickly they're all jumping hive into drones and legging it, Taking Cubes with them to form a new Kazon empire based on patriated Borg Tech leaving a 10th to one to maybe even zero percent of Borg Space intact.

3. Xenophobic. They are not going to want to assimilate new races, and if they had their will pushed into law within the collective, it would reorganise completely the drone to queen ratio and might even call for the purging of races they dislike and force upon the forward planning department even stricter refinements for who is worthwhile assimilating based on personal taste rather then intrinsic worth.

4 Feudal. They fight amongst themselves. the consensus and the harmony of the Borg hive mind would be shattered into a million pieces, cubes... Fleets of cubes would be going to war against each other to solve the most minor differences of opinion between the newly created factions/facets of the borg mentality divided by Kazon bloody mindedness. A true civil war which when left standing all that may be left of the Borg is the Kazon.

Taking those 4 points into view, to destroy the Borg, Janeway had no choice, no choice at all but to mass replicate Borg assimilation technology, hunt down all the kazon and "assimilate" these varments into the Borg Collective completely against the Borgs wishes and see exactly how disastrously inharmonious it makes the Borg that Kathy might never have to worry about seeing a cube on her scanner ever ever again.

 

[BlobVanDam]

First of all, I consider it a fairly throwaway remark for the sake of a joke.

All of the points you have mentioned are mental/psychological traits, which would most likely be "irrelevant" once they're assimilated and mindless drones. And what is it the Borg say? "Your technological and biological distinctiveness will be added to our own". It doesn't seem that the way a species thinks is a priority to the Borg. It's about what genetic and technological abilities the race will bring to the collective.

But I do agree with you on your main point. She said detract. Surely it's all cumulative? The Kazon had nothing to offer technologically or biologically, but they were still a humanoid species with acceptable physical attributes. A drone is a drone, and they'd at the very least help boost the collective's numbers. They're unremarkable, but I don't think they'd be any weaker than a human, or any less capable of walking around and sticking a tube in someone's neck. The Borg have assimilated mediocre species before.

 

[Guy Gardener]

In a conversation with one of the crew, probably Harry, Seven said that a copy of everything that she was, was still floating about in the collective as a part of the Hive Mind affording her a "sort" of immortality even if everything she is experiencing on Voyager is not "part" of "that" Seven of Nine's consciousness which in itself is a fraction of the complete hive mind helping the hive mind to form conclusions.

The flesh is screwed. Nothing you can do about that much. Even though it was a deviation in the flesh that made Unimatrix Zero Possible, it was still electrical consciousnesses, Avatars for a better word which... See if the Avatar was either streamed in real time that the flesh is experiencing everything as it sleeps, or the avatar is sent out of the body to "experience" life and then when the avatar returns tot he flesh it downloads it's new memories into the flesh, are two completely different paradigms insisting on, or not, the importance of drone flesh to the radiating persistence of the hivemind interconnectivity.

The nature of the queen's "flesh" suggests that the Queen consciousness is sent about where needed and downloaded into a properly prepared specialised drone able to handle the larger non drone consciousness... Kinda like how the agents would just download into regular people close to trouble spots in the Matrix.

They told us in I, Borg that the Hive mind was a series of connecting subsapce signals which could be blocked. Data. The Hive mind is digitised information that can be shared dispersed or centralised across the collective using drones and actual hardware if not huge brained animals like that snake from basics as fleshy hard drives... Seven had hundreds of consciousnesses backed up on her brain she drew up daily to seem smart. If they weren't complete bastards (Tuvix times a thousand, ten thousand, so many tortured souls trapped in her head.) they could have cloned bodies or made holobodies for all of those consciousnesses and freed then from sevens mind to life boat them out to freedom (even if it meant the death of seven of Nine?), but that would only be making copies and you can't destroy most of the minds living in Sevens mind without destroying Sevens mind, and what's the point of murdering the minds inside Sevens mind just because you made copies and what the point of freeing copies if the originals are still enslaved by Sevens personality because the originals still trapped are still going to be pissed about being trapped inside her.

The hive mind is a signal, software, not hardware, not some big "brain" in the middle of Borgspace. You can't destroy the Borg with out destroying the integrity of how they think because their "mind" is permeating through us and around us like some sort of force. An ever moving expanding, retracting spiralling transmission of mind and credo deliberating at transwarp speed bouncing from one side of the galaxy to the other like a pin ball being paddled between flippers.

Psychology is a good way to destroy the Borg if it is true that they are harmonious and do welcome new thinking and do grow in depth with the addition of each new species they assimilate... And get this, each new species is "convinced" honestly and truthfully that their assimilation was a good thing and the best thing for them as a species... And maybe being inside the collectives AI is just that good? Borg don't just like being Borg, they love being Borg. it gets them off.

But what if there was a species you could NEVER convince that their assimilation was a good idea? That they would ALWAYS and FOREVER fight what was done to them?

 

[BlobVanDam]

I always figured that whatever consciousness they had was entirely suppressed, basically like renaming the Windows folder on your computer and installing a new copy of Windows on the drive; the original is still there, but 100% dormant and replaced with the united hive mind that controls all Borg. Their willingness to participate in the collective comes from the collective mind itself, not from their existing minds. When they're disconnected from that hive mind, only then can the original mind start to show through (such as Survival Instinct).

This would explain why in Unimatrix Zero the Unimatrix personalities were entirely separate from their daily Borg minds, and neither had any memory of the other.

So I'm not sure that any loss of willpower or convincing is necessary to assimilate a species. Perhaps there are species where their brains are entirely incompatible with becoming a drone, but that's different to being biologically unremarkable. In that case they may simply want to wipe them out rather than pass them up as being unworthy.

 

[Guy Gardener]

Lies we tell our children.

The Myth of Santa Claus and the Tooth fairy could be just as insidious as the unremarkableness of the Kazon?

Seven was freed fromt he Hive Mind twice, and she fought tooth and nail to get back to them no matter who she had to frakk over. Hugh was released fromthe collective and he really didn't understand still why everyone didn't want to be assimilated for quite some time. Picard gave in. Did what the beautiful lady told him to killing many of his friends and Data considere it for a fraction of a second.

 

[BlobVanDam]

They fought to return to the collective because their minds were probably still suppressed and still controlled by the Borg mentality despite being disconnected from new input. Sort of like a drug, where it takes time for it to wear off before they're entirely in control again.

On top of that, there are plenty of Borg such as 7 of 9 who were taken very young, and being Borg is almost all they know. So it wouldn't take convincing for them to accept the Borg way, they'd simply be raised to think like the Borg from the start, like a blank slate. So there's probably not much of a unique mind there to understand external concepts of freedom and individuality.

Also, having a robot claw arm would be pretty cool. That's all the convincing I need.

 

[Guy Gardener]

I think it's the youth thing mostly.

Though, borg stick kids in maturation chambers, pull out adults a few months later and then their age is "suspended" almost ot the point of immortality.

So hundreds of years as Borg could be as much an answer as being assimilated as a baby like we saw in Best of Both worlds.

 

[Anwar]

The thing is, the Borg assimilate for technology. At least that was how it was supposed to be before they changed it so that they now wanted to assimilate people so they could add them to the Collective. If they wanted to assimilate people then that means that whatever unique qualities in their minds would also become part of the Collective and assimilating enough people might bring about a change int he way the Borg act (after all, they've absorbed enough of their varied personalities), just as the Borg changed them they change the Borg.

That's something that has never been addressed by Trek, that Borg assimilation should be portrayed more as symbiosis: instead of the Collective just turning a bunch of people who happen to be fearless daredevils into mindless drones, the result should be that while they become drones the Collective becomes more daredevilish.

Without that, the Borg come off just as a bunch of zombies unified by a Big Voice that blathers "Assimilate".

 

[exodus]

The thing is, the Borg assimilate for technology. At least that was how it was supposed to be before they changed it so that they now wanted to assimilate people so they could add them to the Collective.

The Borg always wanted to add people to the Collective.
The beginning of "BOBW" starts with the Enterprise crew investigating the disappearance of entire city, the planets resources and all the inhabitance.

 

[exodus]

They fought to return to the collective because their minds were probably still suppressed and still controlled by the Borg mentality despite being disconnected from new input. Sort of like a drug, where it takes time for it to wear off before they're entirely in control again.

On top of that, there are plenty of Borg such as 7 of 9 who were taken very young, and being Borg is almost all they know. So it wouldn't take convincing for them to accept the Borg way, they'd simply be raised to think like the Borg from the start, like a blank slate. So there's probably not much of a unique mind there to understand external concepts of freedom and individuality.

You're on the right track but not like a drug but more like brainwashing, where the persons original mindset/personality is repressed to the point where it takes time and great effort to reprogram them back to some resemblance of the person they used to be. Much like Seven and other freed Drones, a shadow of the brainwashing still remains at the back of their minds.

 

[Guy Gardener]

The thing is, the Borg assimilate for technology. At least that was how it was supposed to be before they changed it so that they now wanted to assimilate people so they could add them to the Collective.

The Borg always wanted to add people to the Collective.
The beginning of "BOBW" starts with the Enterprise crew investigating the disappearance of entire city, the planets resources and all the inhabitance.

Actually, cities were disappearing as early "The Neutral Zone" the last episode of seaons one, but in "Q-Who?" halfway through seaon 2, the Borg were not interested in warm bodies and the "change in proceedure" was talked about commented on during the course of The best of Both Worlds because Picard and Riker were wondering WTF?.

 

[exodus]

The thing is, the Borg assimilate for technology. At least that was how it was supposed to be before they changed it so that they now wanted to assimilate people so they could add them to the Collective.

The Borg always wanted to add people to the Collective.
The beginning of "BOBW" starts with the Enterprise crew investigating the disappearance of entire city, the planets resources and all the inhabitance.

Actually, cities were disappearing as early "The Neutral Zone" the last episode of seaons one, but in "Q-Who?" halfway through seaon 2, the Borg were not interested in warm bodies and the "change in proceedure" was talked about commented on during the course of The best of Both Worlds because Picard and Riker were wondering WTF?.

..but if the Borg are still doing it then they really didn't change proceedure, right?

 

[Guy Gardener]

Story answers...

According to Guinin in Q Who, the Borg just wanted technology. Flesh was stupid. They didn't assimilate anyone during Q-Who and unless Guinnin was fucking with them, no El-Aurians where assimilated either when their world was stripped by the Borg.

real world answer.

Bugs don't assimilate. Changing the borg from Bugs to Cyborgs required more tweaking than than they thought. Goodness in the best of both worlds Wesley claims that if they gave him a week that he could buildn anites that could fight the borg to a standstill. They were just making this shit up as they went.

Cybermen from Doctor who had been assimilating life forms into their ranks since the 1960s. It's hard a new spin on the Zombie genre.

 

[exodus]

Story answers...

According to Guinin in Q Who, the Borg just wanted technology. Flesh was stupid. They didn't assimilate anyone during Q-Who and unless Guinnin was fucking with them, no El-Aurians where assimilated either when their world was stripped by the Borg.

"Generations"
Soran was trying to enter the "Ribbon" to be with his family again that were taken by the Borg. if Borg didn't take people, then where did the billions upon billions of them come from? Guinian was wrong due to the fact we found an assimilated baby and the Borg don't procreate. Drones have to come from somewhere.

What the writers did here was no different than when they changed the Trill "facts". Trill aren't supposed to be able to use a transporter due to the joined nature of some of their species, yet Jadzia & Ezri used it all the time. The writers understood you couldn't have all those Drones if you aren't assimilating people.

 

[Captrek]

That's something that has never been addressed by Trek, that Borg assimilation should be portrayed more as symbiosis: instead of the Collective just turning a bunch of people who happen to be fearless daredevils into mindless drones, the result should be that while they become drones the Collective becomes more daredevilish.

I think something like that is the intent, but it’s not a “mindless” mixing that has all attributes present in the combination in the same proportions that they existed in the ingredients. Rather, I think assimilation is supposed to create a new “best of both worlds” Collective, combining the best traits of the pre-assimilation Collective and the best traits of the assimilatees. Assimilating thrillseekers doesn’t necessarily make the Collective more thrillseeking, unless it is determined that this trait is advantageous. If it’s determined that this trait is maladaptive, it is discarded, while the more useful traits of the assimilated thrillseekers are adapted and adopted to become part of the Collective.

That’s an oversimplification because traits may not be so easily separated from each other, but that’s the basic idea, as I understand it at this particular moment in time. Ask me again in five minutes and I’ll probably have a completely different philosophy about the Borg.

The Kazon were determined to have nothing to offer. The optimal combination of the existing Collective and the Kazon would be identical to the existing Collective, because adopting any Kazon traits would result in a less perfect Collective.

 

[Guy Gardener]

Story answers...

According to Guinin in Q Who, the Borg just wanted technology. Flesh was stupid. They didn't assimilate anyone during Q-Who and unless Guinnin was fucking with them, no El-Aurians where assimilated either when their world was stripped by the Borg.

"Generations"
Soran was trying to enter the "Ribbon" to be with his family again that were taken by the Borg. if Borg didn't take people, then where did the billions upon billions of them come from? Guinian was wrong due to the fact we found an assimilated baby and the Borg don't procreate. Drones have to come from somewhere.

What the writers did here was no different than when they changed the Trill "facts". Trill aren't supposed to be able to use a transporter due to the joined nature of some of their species, yet Jadzia & Ezri used it all the time. The writers understood you couldn't have all those Drones if you aren't assimilating people.

Dude. I said "unless Guinin was fucking with them".

She was fucking with them.

She was either wrong or lying.

"Fucking with them."

The writers hadn't invented assimilation yet, but the characters should have known.

 

[The Borg Queen]

A use of resources for no increase in benefit = a waste.

The Borg would have used resources on assimilating the Kazon, but have remained biologically and technologically exactly the same as they already were, so why bother?

A few inefficient Drones and some spare scrap metal? No thanks.

 

[Guy Gardener]

The more I think about it, I think it's got somehting to do with the kazons hair.

The Borg want their drones bald and beautiful.

Kazonhair just keeps growing back no matter what they do.

 

[Captrek]

According to Guinin in Q Who, the Borg just wanted technology. Flesh was stupid. They didn't assimilate anyone during Q-Who and unless Guinnin was fucking with them, no El-Aurians where assimilated either when their world was stripped by the Borg.

I don’t think Guinan ever said anything in BOBW that ruled out assimilation.

Q made some comments along the line of “he’s not interested in you, only your ship,” but that doesn’t necessarily mean that they are as a rule interested only in technology and not in biology. It just means that in this particular situation the Borg had identified Enterprise as something of interest and had not (yet) taken any special notice of her carbon-based units.

 

[Guy Gardener]

BORG [OC]: Jean Luc Picard, captain of the Starship Enterprise, registry NCC 1701D, you will lower shields and prepare to transport yourself aboard our vessel. If you do not cooperate, we will destroy your ship.
PICARD: You have committed acts of aggression against the United Federation of Planets. If you do not withdraw immediately
BORG: You will surrender yourself or we will destroy your ship. Your defensive capabilities are unable to withstand us.
(mute)
RIKER: What the hell do they want with you?
SHELBY: I thought they weren't interested in human life forms, only our technology.
PICARD: Their priorities seem to have changed. Open.
WORF: Channel open.
PICARD: We have developed new defence capabilities since our last meeting and we are prepared to use them if you do not withdraw from Federation space.
LAFORGE [OC]: Captain.

Not the quote I was looking for, but this nails down my point of view.