Supernatural5x22 "Swan Song" spoiler/discussion thread

[Dorian Thompson]

Season finale tonight, folks. Do I get to participate? No. Do I have to work late? Yes. Dammit. This need to keep my job and pay the bills is really cutting into my leisure time. Supposed to be a tearjerker. We shall see.

 

[mswood]

Ok that just sucks, are you sure you have to eat?

All I can say is I want Sam to throw himself into the Pitt. I want that to happen.

Not that I want Sam to go to the Pitt, but I want the character to be able to finally have a real say about his destiny. Of course I don't want to end with Sam in hell, but I want the character to achieve at least a moment of control and make the attempt.

 

[Joe Washington]

Good finale. I love how it all went back to the brothers' love for each other. I was hoping that we would get to see God. For a moment, I thought it would be revealed that God has been hiding inside Sam and Dean's car all this time. I wonder how Season 6 is going to open. It either would take place a few months after the events of this episode or a year or more in the future. I wonder what's the deal with Sam at the end of the episode. He's out of the pit but does this mean he's free of Lucifer or is Lucifer still inside me? How did he escape from the pit in the first place? Here's hoping Season 6 answers these questions right off the bat and bring proper closure to the Supernatural saga.

 

[startrekwatcher]

This really should have been the final episode--it had that final episode feel even the title was perfect.

Chuck's montage or should I say God's montage of the life of the Impala was rather inventive--it evoked a very bittersweet feel of an era coming to an end. I liked how Chuck/God was sitting in for Eric Kripke as he meditated on writing an end to a story--his story of Supernatural. Because tat is exactly what Kripke has been this whole time--the person who created these characters, put them through the wringer, killed character or brought them back. I really like this idea.

Mark Pellegrino basically made a cameo.

I was so cheering when Dean showed up and rolled upon them jamming to Def Leppard--nice to have the music back in the show reminded me of the early years. I never get tired no matter how many times they play what has become the Sam theme by Kansas.

So all season they built up this literally battle of biblical proportions and it was fought in a cemetery--okaythey don't have a budget(it was beautifully filmed I will say though) and it ended before it began in a very anti-climatic way. It just fizzled. I waited all season for that! Okay so you say the battle wasn't the point--it was what it said about the relationship between the two brothers.

A brother's love saves the world--a tad sentimental and I would say kinda cliched and maybe even "easy"--Sam just catches a glimpse of an army soldier figurine caught by the reflection of Light(God perhaps) they played with as a child that we never really saw before on the show and a flood of heartwarming memories--an effectively done flash of memories if I do say so and a nice pastiche of clips from the series hey Jared had really short hair at one time I remember that.

Despite what it might say about the love these two brothers share which was never in doubt it felt way too convenient and therefore underwhelming.

I thought it was a tad convenient and abrupt how they removed Michael from the proceedings. Okay but then they get rid of Castiel then Bobby--I don't mind killing off the characters but the deaths were too abrupt--blink and you would literally miss it. I barely am still processing it even now. Will they be back? Probably not if this really was the SERIES finale but since it wasn't well you saw Castiel is back and so is Bobby which happened so quickly after their initial deaths that they were back in tip top shape before I had even begun to mourn their passing. Another upside had this really been the series finale would be that they would in all liklihood have stayed death rendering the ending so much more powerful rather than one of the fastest undones in tv history.

I was expecting more. It was decent not great or excellent. I thought the first half wandered a bit either trying to find direction or stalling until the big climax--I haven't decided which maybe a bit of both.

Again this was effective as an ending for the series--in all the important ways it hit the right notes for what you want emotionally in a finale especially in the ending passages. I liked this melancholy ending. As I've said over and over this year this should have been the final season and this worked well enough as a Swan Song and I don'think SN could come up with anything much better. I'm sure some fans would have hated the idea of the series ending with Sam dead and Dean alone but sometimes as a viewer that is the kind of dark ending you need--I would have liked it

I'll give it a B. It wasn't solid throughout but it found its footing towards the end.

 

[Vendikarr]

Ok.. my big question. Is Chuck God?

With the exception of Sam standing out on the street at the end, it sure felt like a series finale. And if it was, I think it would have been a good way to go out.

I still don't know how they can match this five year arc. I keep thinking they will give us a full season of stand-alone episodes, which will end the series on a low note.

 

[startrekwatcher]

Ok.. my big question. Is Chuck God?

Yes that was the implication. Kripke is God at least when it comes to the Supernatural universe--he created these characters, orchestrated everything, mapped out the brother's journeys etc. That is a neat twist on things I thought. The ultimate meta-commentary on a series that loved meta commentary. Kudos

The only thing is Dean's amulet didn't do anything when he was in Chuck's presence on several occasions--so either Castiel was wrong about it or the writers didn't care and went with the idea over maintaining story logic--either way I'm fine with it.

 

[Apophis]

Ok.. my big question. Is Chuck God?

Yes that was the implication. Kripke is God at least when it comes to the Supernatural universe--he created these characters, orchestrated everything, mapped out the brother's journeys etc. That is a neat twist on things I thought. The ultimate meta-commentary on a series that loved meta commentary. Kudos

The only thing is Dean's amulet didn't do anything when he was in Chuck's presence on several occasions--so either Castiel was wrong about it or the writers didn't care and went with the idea over maintaining story logic--either way I'm fine with it.

Or Chuck is a vessel for God, and he comes and goes periodically. Makes more sense to me. (Not my idea, read it on another forum).

 

[Kaijima]

It's possible that Chuck wasn't God, but going with the meta nature of Chuck's narrative, Chuck was himself a fictional character. Essentially manifested by God in order to be the interface between the external view - God's overview - and the reality of Supernatural's world.

 

[startrekwatcher]

Ok.. my big question. Is Chuck God?

Yes that was the implication. Kripke is God at least when it comes to the Supernatural universe--he created these characters, orchestrated everything, mapped out the brother's journeys etc. That is a neat twist on things I thought. The ultimate meta-commentary on a series that loved meta commentary. Kudos

The only thing is Dean's amulet didn't do anything when he was in Chuck's presence on several occasions--so either Castiel was wrong about it or the writers didn't care and went with the idea over maintaining story logic--either way I'm fine with it.

Or Chuck is a vessel for God, and he comes and goes periodically. Makes more sense to me. (Not my idea, read it on another forum).

Don't vessels usually remain behind once the possessor leaves and not vanish into thin air vessel and all?

 

[Apophis]

Yes that was the implication. Kripke is God at least when it comes to the Supernatural universe--he created these characters, orchestrated everything, mapped out the brother's journeys etc. That is a neat twist on things I thought. The ultimate meta-commentary on a series that loved meta commentary. Kudos

The only thing is Dean's amulet didn't do anything when he was in Chuck's presence on several occasions--so either Castiel was wrong about it or the writers didn't care and went with the idea over maintaining story logic--either way I'm fine with it.

Or Chuck is a vessel for God, and he comes and goes periodically. Makes more sense to me. (Not my idea, read it on another forum).

Don't vessels usually remain behind once the possessor leaves and not vanish into thin air vessel and all?

Yeah I realized that after I posted. Maybe Kaijima is right, God created the 'character' of Chuck to interact/help and based it on composites of people like 'Chuck'. If that makes any sense. Just hoping the creator of the universe didn't actually get dumped by a nerd girl and use an escort service. Pretty silly, even for SN.

 

[startrekwatcher]

Or Chuck is a vessel for God, and he comes and goes periodically. Makes more sense to me. (Not my idea, read it on another forum).

Don't vessels usually remain behind once the possessor leaves and not vanish into thin air vessel and all?

Yeah I realized that after I posted. Maybe Kaijima is right, God created the 'character' of Chuck to interact/help and based it on composites of people like 'Chuck'. If that makes any sense. Just hoping the creator of the universe didn't get dumped by a nerd girl and use an escort service. Pretty silly, even for SN.

I think people are trying to make this more complicated than it needs to be--I think Kripke's intent was Chuck was indeed God. There was even that sarcastic remark from Dean about him liking virgin girls--a reference to the Virgin Mary.

 

[Apophis]

I'm hoping someone official one day writes a supernatural 'hierarchy' guide. I get a bit confused over who's more powerful than who, and who did what and when. In this episode, Michael and Lucifer claim God created everything. Last episode, Death claims to possibly predate God and, further, that he's 'mortal' and will one day be reaped.

If even God can be croaked, what about Death himself? Or is he all-powerful? And what kind of a universe is that? And if humans die and live forever in heaven or hell, why would God need to die? And if humans go somewhere after Death gets them, where does God go. Not Heaven, he's already there (or been there)... I think, in fact, that Death is full of shit.

 

[Apophis]

Don't vessels usually remain behind once the possessor leaves and not vanish into thin air vessel and all?

Yeah I realized that after I posted. Maybe Kaijima is right, God created the 'character' of Chuck to interact/help and based it on composites of people like 'Chuck'. If that makes any sense. Just hoping the creator of the universe didn't get dumped by a nerd girl and use an escort service. Pretty silly, even for SN.

I think people are trying to make this more complicated than it needs to be--I think Kripke's intent was Chuck was indeed God. There was even that sarcastic remark from Dean about him liking virgin girls--a reference to the Virgin Mary.

I kinda hope not, or that there's more to the story. Or maybe, it's open enough to be interpretable by fans to best suit their preconceptions. (Like the end of STII was meant to be.)

 

[BenRoethig]

Ok.. my big question. Is Chuck God?

With the exception of Sam standing out on the street at the end, it sure felt like a series finale. And if it was, I think it would have been a good way to go out.

I still don't know how they can match this five year arc. I keep thinking they will give us a full season of stand-alone episodes, which will end the series on a low note.

It was supposed to be the series finale and was written as such. I think the scene with Sam at the end was added on after they picked it up for a sixth season.

 

[Apophis]

My last thought on this (before I get into trouble for posting too many times in a row...) maybe it's as simple as Chuck was Kripke. He is leaving after this, right? Maybe it's his Swan Song, and he was talking to the audience about how endings are hard... and then flashed away (exiting the show off- and on-screen).

 

[startrekwatcher]

If even God can be croaked, what about Death himself? Or is he all-powerful? And what kind of a universe is that? And if humans die and live forever in heaven or hell, why would God need to die? And if humans go somewhere after Death gets them, where does God go. Not Heaven, he's already there (or been there)... I think, in fact, that Death is full of shit.

Honestly I thought that line last week about Death reaping God was nothing more than an intriguing line the writers decided to include to make Death more interesting. I doubt much more thought than that really went into it.

 

[kristenthomas43]

I loved the episode, I thought it was quite good. It was a bit of a tearjerker. I thought Jared did amazing as Lucifer.

So it leaves me wondering, is if Sam or Lucifer at the end outside of Lisa's house?

 

[mswood]

I think it's actually both. Since he is"the creator", thus he equals god. And he did say God would be int his season, and it wouldn't be who we thought it would be.

I have to say I loved the episode. It's easily my favorite of the season enders.

I know some will be upset that we don't see a fight, but I always thought the whole point was to strong things before their would be a confrontation. As none of the characters are strong enough to have any barring on that level, thus I never expected it.

I was surprised by the choice of director, but he did good work.

Acting wisse, I think everyone one was exceptionally good tonight, my one big fear (knowing that the episode would feature Jared a lot) was that Jared wouldn't have the skill to pull it off. Anger, rage, he is good at but I didn't think he would handle the duality scenes. And I think he did really good work here.

Dialogue, was pretty strong as well (something that occasionally I have problems with this show), but here they did well. Consistent with both character and the events they were in.

On the theme of family, I think they hit it out of the park. The emotional core of the episode (and really the series and has always been the primary attraction to the show) of the power of family. Is something that really rang true.

 

[mswood]

If even God can be croaked, what about Death himself? Or is he all-powerful? And what kind of a universe is that? And if humans die and live forever in heaven or hell, why would God need to die? And if humans go somewhere after Death gets them, where does God go. Not Heaven, he's already there (or been there)... I think, in fact, that Death is full of shit.

Honestly I thought that line last week about Death reaping God was nothing more than an intriguing line the writers decided to include to make Death more interesting. I doubt much more thought than that really went into it.

Well even Death doesn't remember the beginning he openly admits. As to can Death reap God. I would assume that would be something like the end of the universe type of event. Reap God, universe finally collapse fully in on its self.

 

[mswood]

Oh I can say one thing, I bet Dorian will be an emotional mess with this episode. I hope she enjoyed it as much as I did.

As to if this was how Kripke wanted to end the series. I don't know if we will know anytime soon. But with his interviews even going back a ways, he never really talked about having a grim ending. More of the power of family in surviving over impossible odds. So I could see his original idea ending in death, but I could also see him playing it pretty much as it went.

Oh the only real complaint (and its exceptionally minor) is that Lisa returned. Her original history never mentioned a strong emotional connection. But I know the writers were never, ever going to use Cassie. And really there is no one we have ever seen Dean form a bond with besides Cassie. So she works as a extension of the plot. But not of character. Really the only part that I didn't believe emotionally in the whole episode.