I would prefer it be some combination of both their actions, since it was a combination of both their actions that allowed lucifer to roam free.
With out one, it wouldn't have happened. Kill Lilith before the first seal is broken no harm no foul.
Supernatural5x19 "Hammer of the Gods" spoilerish/discussion
- Thread starter Dorian Thompson
- Start date
I would prefer it be some combination of both their actions, since it was a combination of both their actions that allowed lucifer to roam free.
With out one, it wouldn't have happened. Kill Lilith before the first seal is broken no harm no foul.
Posted from an earlier thread:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Archangel
What was the name of that guy who is still talking to God directly? Does that confuse the issue of only four angels having talked to God? Was that guy Raphael? Or maybe Raphael never talked to God...?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Archangel
What was the name of that guy who is still talking to God directly? Does that confuse the issue of only four angels having talked to God? Was that guy Raphael? Or maybe Raphael never talked to God...?
Oh and as far as the archangels it would appear that the writers are counting any named angel in the bible as an Arch Angel as I believe only those four are named. The bible does reference 7 that stand before god, but the term arch angel is never used to describe them.
All others names have come from sources typically considered apocryphal.
All others names have come from sources typically considered apocryphal.
Man, the CW website sucks! I had to get the last episode elsewhere because I missed it and can't get the website to stream it to save my life.
Even though it was disgusting it's cool to see Matt Frewer(!) as Pestilence plus Rekha Sharma as Kali. And everytime I see Gabriel I think of cousin Larry from Perfrect Strangers though that kind of fits the character. I liked that his farewell message was on Casa Erotica (which looked more like those lame erotic series on Cinemax and Showtime than straight porn).
I do think they could have done more with the forgotten gods storyline though. That had some potential to be interesting and could have been another angle to explore had it been developed more.
Also, the language of this show cracks me up. Is there any other show on broadcast TV where characters say "Blow me" and "bag of dicks"?
Even though it was disgusting it's cool to see Matt Frewer(!) as Pestilence plus Rekha Sharma as Kali. And everytime I see Gabriel I think of cousin Larry from Perfrect Strangers though that kind of fits the character. I liked that his farewell message was on Casa Erotica (which looked more like those lame erotic series on Cinemax and Showtime than straight porn).
I do think they could have done more with the forgotten gods storyline though. That had some potential to be interesting and could have been another angle to explore had it been developed more.
Also, the language of this show cracks me up. Is there any other show on broadcast TV where characters say "Blow me" and "bag of dicks"?
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Oh and go figure an episode I was not that pleased with did (for SN and for the CW) really well.
Tying season highs in adults 18-49, adults 18-34, missing season highs (by a tenth of a point) in w 18-34.
And for year to year comparisons we beat SN's performance last year across the board. More viewers, higher demos in adults 18-49, adults 18-34, teens, and in those groups among both women and surprisingly men as well.
And to rub more salt on the wound we also beat our performance two years ago, in every single demo group, teens, adults 18-34, adults 18-49, adults 25-54 (don't get adult 50 Plus so I can't judge that group), and also among those groups men and women both. But that really shouldn't surprise as that episode was the first one back after SN was fully off the air for 5 weeks (not even reruns).
But we also beat season 2's same week in adults 18-34 and adults 18-49, though not in viewers or in adults 25-54 (which the CW doesn't care about in any way shape or form).
I still wish this was a two parter as it really did have some interesting ideas that they weren't able to successfully (at least successfully enough for me) to address all in one episode.
Tying season highs in adults 18-49, adults 18-34, missing season highs (by a tenth of a point) in w 18-34.
And for year to year comparisons we beat SN's performance last year across the board. More viewers, higher demos in adults 18-49, adults 18-34, teens, and in those groups among both women and surprisingly men as well.
And to rub more salt on the wound we also beat our performance two years ago, in every single demo group, teens, adults 18-34, adults 18-49, adults 25-54 (don't get adult 50 Plus so I can't judge that group), and also among those groups men and women both. But that really shouldn't surprise as that episode was the first one back after SN was fully off the air for 5 weeks (not even reruns).
But we also beat season 2's same week in adults 18-34 and adults 18-49, though not in viewers or in adults 25-54 (which the CW doesn't care about in any way shape or form).
I still wish this was a two parter as it really did have some interesting ideas that they weren't able to successfully (at least successfully enough for me) to address all in one episode.
I did. I thought it was funny as hell. Do not agree one iota with StarTrekwatcher's criticisms.
Tomato soup. Hee hee hee hee heeee.....
Loved the final message on Casa Erotica. How very Gabriel. 
Gabriel. Like you, I wish it could have been a two parter. This one perked right up in the final ratings.
Tomato soup. Hee hee hee hee heeee.....
Loved the final message on Casa Erotica. How very Gabriel. Gabriel. Like you, I wish it could have been a two parter. This one perked right up in the final ratings.
Hmm, this one was a bit 50/50 for me.
The whole idea of having a hotel containing gods of other religions was good in theory, and a nice nod to Gaiman's "American Gods" novel, which explores themes hinted at here (such as "what happens to gods when people stop believing in them?"). I've actually been waiting for Kripke to do something along these lines in the show for a while now since it has been mentioned that Hellblazer/Sandman and American Gods have been a source of inspiration for the series.
My problem was that this concept is a bit too much for just one episode and I think it would have played better had the guys encountered these gods sporodically throughout the show trying to cope in a modern world that no longer has enough real belief to go around anymore. As it was there was a lot of potential pagan, norse, and hindu myth that was simply crammed into one episode and so the impact of the episode's premise became diluted.
Some of the things I did like were seeing the gods bicker and insult each other (though I may be wrong but shouldn't Odin have been missing an eye or at least had a glass one? Would have been nice to see him maybe cleaning a glass eye then pop it back into its socket)
The most interesting aspect of this episode was Gabriel's appearance and I loved the dialogue he had with Lucifer during their fight particularly this exchange:
Lucifer: "Brother, don't make me do this"
Gabriel: "No one makes us do anything"
As a fan of the Sandman spinoff, Lucifer, this line struck me as a very apt thing to say to the devil (particularly the Miltonian version shown in the Carey comic and seemingly the show's basis for Lucifer), because in the comic Lucifer's ultimate obsession was free will and that he believed destiny and predestination were offensive concepts and that each individual is responsible for their own actions. This line just seemed like a nice nod.
How they are going to wrap up this story arc in the next three episodes has me very intruigued as there seems to be a lot of threads to tie up and plots to play out (will Sam say yes in Detroit? How are they going to tackle two more horsemen? Will Dean say yes? What happened to Adam and Cas? Will God actually make an appearance?)
I keep thinking it would be neat to end the season on Sam saying yes to the devil and carrying the apocalypse to the next season but this seems unlikely as Kripke seems to want to tie up the main story in this season.
Some of the comedy in this ep was quite funny (the Casa Erotica DVD and Dean's rather cool homage to Bruce Campbell in Army of Darkness) but it just seemed to jar with the rest of the episode
And Pestilence looks disgusting. Execellent! (nice casting of Trashcan man from The Stand)
Nice episode but not one the show's better ones. The main premise could have used more breathing room and there were some interesting ideas that I wish could be expanded on (Baldur referring to the end specifically as the "Judeo-Christian apocalypse" was interesting and makes me wonder if there are more judgment days coming, maybe next season Sam and Dean have to stop Ragnarok, but Odin already looks pretty dead now), Lucifer claiming that the Pagans forfeited their right to the planet and Kali claiming that they (the other gods) were here first kind of implies that the Christian god maybe isn't the only all-powerful force in this cosmos (and where is Pandora? Another planet?)
The whole idea of having a hotel containing gods of other religions was good in theory, and a nice nod to Gaiman's "American Gods" novel, which explores themes hinted at here (such as "what happens to gods when people stop believing in them?"). I've actually been waiting for Kripke to do something along these lines in the show for a while now since it has been mentioned that Hellblazer/Sandman and American Gods have been a source of inspiration for the series.
My problem was that this concept is a bit too much for just one episode and I think it would have played better had the guys encountered these gods sporodically throughout the show trying to cope in a modern world that no longer has enough real belief to go around anymore. As it was there was a lot of potential pagan, norse, and hindu myth that was simply crammed into one episode and so the impact of the episode's premise became diluted.
Some of the things I did like were seeing the gods bicker and insult each other (though I may be wrong but shouldn't Odin have been missing an eye or at least had a glass one? Would have been nice to see him maybe cleaning a glass eye then pop it back into its socket)
The most interesting aspect of this episode was Gabriel's appearance and I loved the dialogue he had with Lucifer during their fight particularly this exchange:
Lucifer: "Brother, don't make me do this"
Gabriel: "No one makes us do anything"
As a fan of the Sandman spinoff, Lucifer, this line struck me as a very apt thing to say to the devil (particularly the Miltonian version shown in the Carey comic and seemingly the show's basis for Lucifer), because in the comic Lucifer's ultimate obsession was free will and that he believed destiny and predestination were offensive concepts and that each individual is responsible for their own actions. This line just seemed like a nice nod.
How they are going to wrap up this story arc in the next three episodes has me very intruigued as there seems to be a lot of threads to tie up and plots to play out (will Sam say yes in Detroit? How are they going to tackle two more horsemen? Will Dean say yes? What happened to Adam and Cas? Will God actually make an appearance?)
I keep thinking it would be neat to end the season on Sam saying yes to the devil and carrying the apocalypse to the next season but this seems unlikely as Kripke seems to want to tie up the main story in this season.
Some of the comedy in this ep was quite funny (the Casa Erotica DVD and Dean's rather cool homage to Bruce Campbell in Army of Darkness) but it just seemed to jar with the rest of the episode
And Pestilence looks disgusting. Execellent! (nice casting of Trashcan man from The Stand)
Nice episode but not one the show's better ones. The main premise could have used more breathing room and there were some interesting ideas that I wish could be expanded on (Baldur referring to the end specifically as the "Judeo-Christian apocalypse" was interesting and makes me wonder if there are more judgment days coming, maybe next season Sam and Dean have to stop Ragnarok, but Odin already looks pretty dead now), Lucifer claiming that the Pagans forfeited their right to the planet and Kali claiming that they (the other gods) were here first kind of implies that the Christian god maybe isn't the only all-powerful force in this cosmos (and where is Pandora? Another planet?)
Eh. The scriptures have already been claimed somewhat historically inaccurate, so Odin's story is probably a bit different than we think. Besides, we're talking about gods here. There may be some unknown story in which he got his eye back (healed with some great price, blah, blah, blah).
Well a thing to consider about the appearance of the other gods, is that that probably wasn't their true appearance. Just like the angels, and the Demi gods in A Very Supernatural Christmas aren't using their true forms.
So I didn't have any problem with Odin not having two eyes, since I never thought of that as Odin's true appearance. Be it a host like Demons and Archers, or perhaps just picking a form they like (and you would think some one who had their eye plucked out would pick a body to wear that had both).
So I didn't have any problem with Odin not having two eyes, since I never thought of that as Odin's true appearance. Be it a host like Demons and Archers, or perhaps just picking a form they like (and you would think some one who had their eye plucked out would pick a body to wear that had both).
It's funny for an episode I have been quite vocal about not loving. I honestly think this episode more then any other episode screams too be two hours. And it's also interesting that I think more than any other season, we have been hit with several episodes that should have taken more then one episode.
I hate that the individual stories in this last episode didn't work for me as I honestly think each idea was very worthing of being a story point.
I have gotten spoiled by Trek, in that as a fandom, we have been exposed to so much of the behind the scenes details. Both in filming and the scripting process.
I would really, really like to know if they ideally (ie before network or studio intervention, or just the factors of needing a script the next day) had wished to stretch any of these episodes out more.
For example as much as I love the idea of exploring the other gods view of these current events (and I have heard in brief interviews they wanted to as well), if they would have been wiser to get rid of that element. As sometimes with the limitations you are offered have to kill ideas that you do really want to explore. Or if this was all they really wanted to do (basically just touch upon that aspect). I am really curious.
One of the things I love about Ron Moore and BSG is that for good or ill he is all about taking about why they made the choices they made. Both the good and the bad.
I hate that the individual stories in this last episode didn't work for me as I honestly think each idea was very worthing of being a story point.
I have gotten spoiled by Trek, in that as a fandom, we have been exposed to so much of the behind the scenes details. Both in filming and the scripting process.
I would really, really like to know if they ideally (ie before network or studio intervention, or just the factors of needing a script the next day) had wished to stretch any of these episodes out more.
For example as much as I love the idea of exploring the other gods view of these current events (and I have heard in brief interviews they wanted to as well), if they would have been wiser to get rid of that element. As sometimes with the limitations you are offered have to kill ideas that you do really want to explore. Or if this was all they really wanted to do (basically just touch upon that aspect). I am really curious.
One of the things I love about Ron Moore and BSG is that for good or ill he is all about taking about why they made the choices they made. Both the good and the bad.
It's funny for an episode I have been quite vocal about not loving. I honestly think this episode more then any other episode screams too be two hours. And it's also interesting that I think more than any other season, we have been hit with several episodes that should have taken more then one episode.
I hate that the individual stories in this last episode didn't work for me as I honestly think each idea was very worthing of being a story point.
I have gotten spoiled by Trek, in that as a fandom, we have been exposed to so much of the behind the scenes details. Both in filming and the scripting process.
I would really, really like to know if they ideally (ie before network or studio intervention, or just the factors of needing a script the next day) had wished to stretch any of these episodes out more.
For example as much as I love the idea of exploring the other gods view of these current events (and I have heard in brief interviews they wanted to as well), if they would have been wiser to get rid of that element. As sometimes with the limitations you are offered have to kill ideas that you do really want to explore. Or if this was all they really wanted to do (basically just touch upon that aspect). I am really curious.
One of the things I love about Ron Moore and BSG is that for good or ill he is all about taking about why they made the choices they made. Both the good and the bad.
I hate that the individual stories in this last episode didn't work for me as I honestly think each idea was very worthing of being a story point.
I have gotten spoiled by Trek, in that as a fandom, we have been exposed to so much of the behind the scenes details. Both in filming and the scripting process.
I would really, really like to know if they ideally (ie before network or studio intervention, or just the factors of needing a script the next day) had wished to stretch any of these episodes out more.
For example as much as I love the idea of exploring the other gods view of these current events (and I have heard in brief interviews they wanted to as well), if they would have been wiser to get rid of that element. As sometimes with the limitations you are offered have to kill ideas that you do really want to explore. Or if this was all they really wanted to do (basically just touch upon that aspect). I am really curious.
One of the things I love about Ron Moore and BSG is that for good or ill he is all about taking about why they made the choices they made. Both the good and the bad.
