Supernatural 7x23"Survival of the Fittest" spoiler discussion thread

[hyzmarca]

Re: Supernatural 7x23"Survival of the Fittest" spoiler discussion thre

C+.

Onto the one serious issue with the coda. Crowley is there with Sam. And he lets Sam live.

As much as I bitched about Sam and Dean being stupid to trust the girl, this, this is so much worse.

Lets just assume that God for example removed Sam's ability to gain abilities from Demon blood. Crowley wouldn't know that, heck Castiel wouldn't know that. And we know dying alone doesn't remove it (Sam's died many a times), we know no demon even their ruler can remove it (Hello Lilith certainly would have), we know Angels can't (certainly several would have jumped at that over the years). That leaves God or Death as beings who probably have the ability to do so. Would Death? I don't think Death would care. God? I could see God doing that just like God cleaned him up in season five. ANd I could see God doing it as a reward for going to hell, even.

But, BUt if that is the case. Crowley wouldn't know that.

Sam is strong enough to kill the ruler of Hell (and we know he can be even stronger then he was when he killed Lilith (just hosting Lucifer required more power). AARRRRGGGGGGGHHHHHHHHH.

Killing Sam would not make him any less dangerous,, just like killing Bobby didn't make him any less dangerous. But killing Sam would be worse. Crowley's power is all based in Hell. He has interests on Earth, but it's nothing major. For him it's all about the souls of the damned. As such, he doesn't need to have a direct confrontation with Sam, ever. He can stay out of Sam's way.

But if he kills Sam, that changes the ballgame. Sam in Lucifer's Cage was helpless because it was fucking Lucifer who was holding him. Sam outside of Lucifer's cage is not helpless in the slightest. As you said, he's strong enough to kill Lilith, and Crowley isn't anywhere near her level. A soulfight between Crowley and Sam ends with Crowley destroyed and the legions of hell bowing before their new master. His time under Lucifer's care only makes him more dangerous. He's learned all the different ways you can hurt a soul, first hand, from the master. Crowley does not want to give him a chance to put that knowledge to practical use.

As long as Sam is alive he's limited. He's stuck on Earth. He can't even teleport. He can at most be in one place at one time and there are a lot of monsters out there to kill. Freed from that constraint he's perfectly capable of storming the gates of hell and instituting a regime change.

 

[Sagart]

Re: Supernatural 7x23"Survival of the Fittest" spoiler discussion thre

I'm just wondering what was the point of bringing Bobby back. What did he bring to the story? Other than the haunted house story, was there anything he did that couldn't have easily been covered in some other way? The same stands for Cas. His part in the endgame was to identify the fake Dicks ( stop sniggering at the back!!), but the fake Dicks weren't really utilised. It all just seemed a bit pointless, leading to lazy storytelling.

 

[mswood]

Re: Supernatural 7x23"Survival of the Fittest" spoiler discussion thre

C+.

Onto the one serious issue with the coda. Crowley is there with Sam. And he lets Sam live.

As much as I bitched about Sam and Dean being stupid to trust the girl, this, this is so much worse.

Lets just assume that God for example removed Sam's ability to gain abilities from Demon blood. Crowley wouldn't know that, heck Castiel wouldn't know that. And we know dying alone doesn't remove it (Sam's died many a times), we know no demon even their ruler can remove it (Hello Lilith certainly would have), we know Angels can't (certainly several would have jumped at that over the years). That leaves God or Death as beings who probably have the ability to do so. Would Death? I don't think Death would care. God? I could see God doing that just like God cleaned him up in season five. ANd I could see God doing it as a reward for going to hell, even.

But, BUt if that is the case. Crowley wouldn't know that.

Sam is strong enough to kill the ruler of Hell (and we know he can be even stronger then he was when he killed Lilith (just hosting Lucifer required more power). AARRRRGGGGGGGHHHHHHHHH.

Killing Sam would not make him any less dangerous,, just like killing Bobby didn't make him any less dangerous. But killing Sam would be worse. Crowley's power is all based in Hell. He has interests on Earth, but it's nothing major. For him it's all about the souls of the damned. As such, he doesn't need to have a direct confrontation with Sam, ever. He can stay out of Sam's way.

But if he kills Sam, that changes the ballgame. Sam in Lucifer's Cage was helpless because it was fucking Lucifer who was holding him. Sam outside of Lucifer's cage is not helpless in the slightest. As you said, he's strong enough to kill Lilith, and Crowley isn't anywhere near her level. A soulfight between Crowley and Sam ends with Crowley destroyed and the legions of hell bowing before their new master. His time under Lucifer's care only makes him more dangerous. He's learned all the different ways you can hurt a soul, first hand, from the master. Crowley does not want to give him a chance to put that knowledge to practical use.

As long as Sam is alive he's limited. He's stuck on Earth. He can't even teleport. He can at most be in one place at one time and there are a lot of monsters out there to kill. Freed from that constraint he's perfectly capable of storming the gates of hell and instituting a regime change.

Yeah but so far when Sam has Died he hasn't gone to hell. He went as a living body and soul into Lucifer cage, just as Lucifer originally did.

We have seen Sam die and we know its been more then once that he has gone to heaven.

Crowley should have knowledge that Sam didn't go downstairs when he previously died.

 

[mswood]

Re: Supernatural 7x23"Survival of the Fittest" spoiler discussion thre

I'm just wondering what was the point of bringing Bobby back. What did he bring to the story? Other than the haunted house story, was there anything he did that couldn't have easily been covered in some other way? The same stands for Cas. His part in the endgame was to identify the fake Dicks ( stop sniggering at the back!!), but the fake Dicks weren't really utilised. It all just seemed a bit pointless, leading to lazy storytelling.

Not really, true drama should reflect all aspects of reality. That means not everything has to tie into one event. Things can and often are random.

To think that fiction shouldn't reflect a very common part of reality is ludicrous.

Its basically the same sort of argument that characters just shouldn't have meaningless deaths in fiction. Or not heroic enough deaths. Which is utter garbage.

 

[Dorian Thompson]

Re: Supernatural 7x23"Survival of the Fittest" spoiler discussion thre

Bobby.

As usual, it's the character beats that made the episode work for me. Bobby being taken away from the boys is cruel but it's true to their world. We get our hopes raised, then they're dashed cruelly. Such is life. Some things are meaningless in their random cruelty. Crowley screwing the brothers? Well of course he did. Dean in purgatory? Could be interesting. Who's he going to run into? Plenty of spirits and demons and ghoulies oh my that Dean's killed.

The Leviathans? Ehhhhh.....could have been better. The main characters ring true to me, so it works. Character work always has been and always will be my favorite. Sweet and simple but poignant.

Killing Sam would not make him any less dangerous,, just like killing Bobby didn't make him any less dangerous. But killing Sam would be worse. Crowley's power is all based in Hell. He has interests on Earth, but it's nothing major. For him it's all about the souls of the damned. As such, he doesn't need to have a direct confrontation with Sam, ever. He can stay out of Sam's way.

But if he kills Sam, that changes the ballgame

This. I agree with this, and that Cas seemed like his old self in the purgatory scene. Season 8 might have a chance. It's pushing it, but it might have a chance.

 

[hyzmarca]

Re: Supernatural 7x23"Survival of the Fittest" spoiler discussion thre

We have seen Sam die and we know its been more then once that he has gone to heaven.

Crowley should have knowledge that Sam didn't go downstairs when he previously died.

It's been established that the Reapers can't force you to go anywhere. Heaven may be Sam's default destination, but there's no guarantee that he'll let them take him there, especially if he has reason to want revenge and thinks he's fighting for the greater good.

 

[mswood]

Re: Supernatural 7x23"Survival of the Fittest" spoiler discussion thre

We have seen Sam die and we know its been more then once that he has gone to heaven.

Crowley should have knowledge that Sam didn't go downstairs when he previously died.

It's been established that the Reapers can't force you to go anywhere. Heaven may be Sam's default destination, but there's no guarantee that he'll let them take him there, especially if he has reason to want revenge and thinks he's fighting for the greater good.

Well I don't want to say that Heaven was Sam's default. In the episode where we find he has been in Heaven, they say they made an exception for him.

Now that he helped put Michael in the Pitt and Castiel killed thousands of Heaven's Host its possible that Heaven would be off limits to both Sam and Dean (if the Angels are the ones who actually make that call).

But that based on the latest info that Crowley had Sam would go to Heaven.

But if Sam was killed how much of a threat can he be. We already know that Sam's ability are tied to his body. We have had Sam soul away from his body. As a spirit he had no ability to harm or control or kill a demon beyond what any spirit does. We also know from another episode where someone else's soul was in Sam's body, that the body was still a functional host for Lucifer (per the demons).

And sure if Sam died he could choose not to go, to stay a spirit.

The only way Sam would have influence in Hell is if he opened a Devil's Gate and physically walked his body into Hell.

 

[mswood]

Re: Supernatural 7x23"Survival of the Fittest" spoiler discussion thre

Really the only reasons I can logically see why Crowley has never treated Sam (after Swan Song) as an extremely serious threat is that during the year we didn't see him. Perhaps Soulless Sam was put into a situation where he tried to use Demon blood and he found he no longer could (ie if God, as an example, had cleansed him of that ability when Castiel brought his body back).

Since Crowley was keeping tabs of Soul less Sam and Gramps, that would give him knowledge that Sam is no longer a threat of that sort.

Of course nothing has ever been mentioned on the show about it, and really they certainly could have had a throw away line of dialogue about it. Especially during season six when they were actively trying to kill Crowley.

Certainly I think the writers dont want Sam to have those abilities. I just wished that addressed teh issue.

Though in the 2nd to last episode of season six, I thought they gave a little hint that perhaps Sam does still have those abilities.

When Dean is torturing the demons to get the location of Lisa and Ben, Sam offers to take over.

Dean is a master Torturer, Sam isn't. At all. Dean has decades of experience Sam has...very little. At that time, the only way we have seen Sam and Sam alone get intel from a demon was his powers causing them great, great pain.

On a character level I am sure that was just to give Dean a break, so he didn't get out of hand (as worried as he was). But on a plot level, if Dean couldn't get results, there is no way without demon blood Sam should.

Another Note: Castiel did seem a little more lucid in Purgatory, though got to love the guy for teleporting away from Dean.

And when Spirits die, do they go to Purgatory? I always assume as much, but I don't think the show has ever stated it. If so, I really, really, really hope we don't see Bobby. Because that would be lame. Or do they go nowhere and are utterly destroyed. Missouri made it seem like Mary was destroyed. But I always took that Eve took her form because she was one of her souls in purgatory. But that was just my guess.

If Eve is used again, can we please get a better actress. Please.

 

[Sagart]

Re: Supernatural 7x23"Survival of the Fittest" spoiler discussion thre

I'm just wondering what was the point of bringing Bobby back. What did he bring to the story? Other than the haunted house story, was there anything he did that couldn't have easily been covered in some other way? The same stands for Cas. His part in the endgame was to identify the fake Dicks ( stop sniggering at the back!!), but the fake Dicks weren't really utilised. It all just seemed a bit pointless, leading to lazy storytelling.

Not really, true drama should reflect all aspects of reality. That means not everything has to tie into one event. Things can and often are random.

To think that fiction shouldn't reflect a very common part of reality is ludicrous.

Its basically the same sort of argument that characters just shouldn't have meaningless deaths in fiction. Or not heroic enough deaths. Which is utter garbage.

I'm talking about bringing back ghosts and angels to deal with shape-shifting monsters and you're talking about the drama needing to reflect reality? TV dramas should be tightly written, cutting off any fat that doesn't serve the narrative. My question is what did Cas and Bobby's return add to the storyline, other than allowing us to see a bit more of 2 of our favourite characters. Of course real life is messy, unpredictable and random. I deal with that every day. Drama, on TV or film, needs to be clearer, more focused and ultimately mean something. Otherwise it's just a rambling mess.

 

[LaxScrutiny]

Re: Supernatural 7x23"Survival of the Fittest" spoiler discussion thre

I'm just wondering what was the point of bringing Bobby back. What did he bring to the story? Other than the haunted house story, was there anything he did that couldn't have easily been covered in some other way? The same stands for Cas. His part in the endgame was to identify the fake Dicks ( stop sniggering at the back!!), but the fake Dicks weren't really utilised. It all just seemed a bit pointless, leading to lazy storytelling.

You're approaching this from a plot standpoint and thinking there was no use to bringing him back. Try seeing it from a character standpoint and seeing what it did to the boys, and what it said about Bobby's character.

If they hadn't done it, at least a few people would be saying, "Hey, wouldn't it have been cool if they brought Bobby back as a ghost?" So they did it to show us what it would have been like. It was a futile, no-win situation for Bobby. He could have had peace just going with the Reaper, he chose not to because he felt things were unfinished, but nothing worked out. He went down a road that would have led to progressively more violence and anger. The point of it was a character arc, not a plot device.

 

[hyzmarca]

Re: Supernatural 7x23"Survival of the Fittest" spoiler discussion thre

I like the thought of Dean in Purgatory. Dean has been killing monsters for at least half his life. And now he is in the place where monsters go when they die.

I wonder if Eve is back in Purgatory, and what her reaction to Dean being on her home field will be.

Exactly. Just how many of the monsters and spirits the boys have killed will be in Purgatory (that is if that is where they go when it is done) and if Dean will be running into some of them.

I'm hoping for a father-daughter reunion, personally. Maybe bring Emma back as a recurring character. Because that's something worth dealing with, either as a villain or as a violent teenage girl who just hangs around because her other family abandoned her. She's on the short list of monsters that Dean would be willing to help escape that fate.

 

[mswood]

Re: Supernatural 7x23"Survival of the Fittest" spoiler discussion thre

I'm just wondering what was the point of bringing Bobby back. What did he bring to the story? Other than the haunted house story, was there anything he did that couldn't have easily been covered in some other way? The same stands for Cas. His part in the endgame was to identify the fake Dicks ( stop sniggering at the back!!), but the fake Dicks weren't really utilised. It all just seemed a bit pointless, leading to lazy storytelling.

Not really, true drama should reflect all aspects of reality. That means not everything has to tie into one event. Things can and often are random.

To think that fiction shouldn't reflect a very common part of reality is ludicrous.

Its basically the same sort of argument that characters just shouldn't have meaningless deaths in fiction. Or not heroic enough deaths. Which is utter garbage.

I'm talking about bringing back ghosts and angels to deal with shape-shifting monsters and you're talking about the drama needing to reflect reality? TV dramas should be tightly written, cutting off any fat that doesn't serve the narrative. My question is what did Cas and Bobby's return add to the storyline, other than allowing us to see a bit more of 2 of our favourite characters. Of course real life is messy, unpredictable and random. I deal with that every day. Drama, on TV or film, needs to be clearer, more focused and ultimately mean something. Otherwise it's just a rambling mess.

Well for Castiel, its quite simple and two fold. We needed to see this main character (ie title character of the show) suffer for his actions. The show normally just doesn't let death be ones punishment. It also served two points for the characters of Sam and Dean. One it gave them a way out of Insane Sam, and with it a way to cause more pain and suffering to Castiel. It also allowed Dean a real chance to process the actions of his friend, and how it changed how he fells about him.

As for Bobby it serves a purpose that I for one wasn't sure the boys had learned. When Dean was letting Sam take the lunge for Lucifer, Dean was actually really conflicted. Take a chance to save humanity but let my brother leave forver in the Pitt with Lucifer (really I don't think Dean could think anything worse happening). Or let humanity suffer but have Sam have a more clean death (again to his knowledge thatmeans Sam would be in Heaven and both might have their shared afterlife. Even with the situation that grave, Bobby even has to ask Dean about it.

When Sam is soulless we see Dean again trying to cheat Death for his brother.

Here we see Dean take the person he cares for the most outside of Sam or John (yes I think even more then Castiel or even perhaps Mary) and from the get go we see Dean process that the Dead should stay Dead. This is really the first person Dean has truly loved that he hasn't really considered drastic steps to save.

Its been a lesson that even with example after example of negative consequences, that for those he loves he will take that chance.

Its an important character beat for Dean. A very important one actually.