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Supernatural 5x5 "Fallen Idols" discussion thread spoilerish

I saw this one as an average episode going back to the urban legend type shows that they did in season 1.

I do agree with Dorian about Dean's change in attitude towards Sam. Call me crazy, but it actually clicked for me. Last week, Dean's saw the "future" according to Zack and how nothing was able to stop Lucifer from getting the best of Sam. I liked what someone else said about Dean walking away about the "forgiveness" lesson after going thru Zack's little adventure. Forgiveness opens up a lot of power when it comes to applying faith. The "a-ha" moment of this week's episode was when Sam hands Dean the next key to the big apocalypse problem by telling Dean that nothing's going to change between them if they don't work as equals. I believe that this key in concert with Zack's key last week is what motivated Dean's sudden change in attitude. Nothing Sam and Dean has done so far has worked...it's only opened up the next seal. The Colt may not kill Lucifer. The "future" wasn't too bright looking. I think some of those little discussions with Castiel are starting to rub off on Dean. Dean decided it's time to take a different take on this whole b*tch and start trying something different...maybe even out of character from the enemy's p.o.v.. Well see. :cool:

Well three weeks had passed since Dean's "trip" to the future and clearly while being able to work with his brother he was still quick on the blame game, and while I have no problem with him using what he learned to reevaluate how he work's with Sam, I didn't have a problem with Dean facing the broaching the reality that he is the one who started everything. I never saw the moment where Dean gets a a revelation, or works trough an issue, or had a point hammered home to him. I just saw Dean announcing to Sam all these points, without us the viewers seeing him come to those conclusions.

I am not saying this as someone who wants to see Dean slammed for what he did (Hell I like the fact that what Sam did say, he said calm and cool), but I really didn't see any personal reflection in Dean. Nothing to show where he thought about this issue.
 
I do hear you, mswood. Really, I do, but Dean's a changed man after everything he's experienced. He's more willing to listen. That's how I see it, anyway. Did you hear about the posters in Mo Ryan's comment column in the Chicago Tribune for her episode reviews? :rolleyes: She had to "shush" them because they were getting all hostile about the Dean vs. Sam who apologizes more argument. God, that's embarrassing. Why is there such a psychotic element to this fandom?

Hey, did everyone hear that Mark Sheppard's going to be playing Crowley later in in the season before the December break? :) That's Romo Lampkin from Battlestar. I love that guy. Crowley's supposed to be some slick, nasty demon. I can't wait.
 
And we get Ellen back for another episode (though with her luck we can guess her fate).

See I don't understand teh huge Sam versus Dean groups. I love bot characters, though Dean is my favorite and I think Jensen is the better actor. And sure due to the constraits of tv production certain story points get side lined. For example showing Sam really dealing with John's death (we got very little over that), but it happens.

I think my main problem with Dean's addressing his own faults, is that the writers for the most part have been very successful with showing Dean coming to terms and dealing with his "serious" issues. From dealing with his worry over Sam (over several issues), his feelings of self worth, his anguish over possibly needing to kill Sam, dealing with making a deal, dealing with the guilt that Dad died for him, Dealing with what he did in hell, dealing with his role with the angels, dealing with Sam's addiction, ect. All have been played over multiple episodes showcasing the characters growth through those issues.

This to me is just as huge an issue (both in addressing the dynamic between Sam and Dean and that it can't stay teh same as its been throughout Dean's live, something that will not be easy to break especially when in contact with him), to acknowledging that his actions did as much damage and were done for very similar motives (both selfish and selfless) with both having far dire consequences then either truly imagined. I mean Dean's knowingly made a deal where he knew he would die, loss his soul and turn int a monster of him self. Sam new that his actions in stopping Lilith, might cost him his life and he might be turned into a monster. Dean's is actually worse because unlike Sam his is an absolute. From Bobby, to Dean, to Sam, to Castiel they didn't know for sure what would happen to Sam, just that those two were possibilities. And what where both of these two people doing such dramatic things for.

For Dean it was simply to bring his brother back. Dean couldn't live with himself with Sam dying (especially through actions of the YED). Sam did his because he wanted to punish the creature who took his brother to hell, and to stop the coming end of Days (and yeah he was told by multiple sources that stopping Lilith was what was needed to do this). So really Sam (who certainly did monstrous things, and that is a separate issue that I hope they don't drop) certainly risked what he did for a far more important thing then just one life.

And Dean needs to really grasp that (I think it is something Sam has really dealt with, both the good reasons and the bad ones), and I had hoped to see that get treated in a manner similar to all the other huge character moments that the show has done for him.

I think its just odd that such an important revelation is probably the most shoehorned one Dean has ever had on the show.
 
There may be more to come on the shoehorned revelation, mswood. They're not done with the reconciliation.

Othello--you were worried about too much comedy because of the "soon" clip. Most of it comes from episode 8. Episode 7, while it'll have its humorous moments, has the potential to be a great deal more poignant than it looked from the clip. Here's an episode description from spoiler tv.

SUPERNATURAL” — (9:00-10:00 p.m. ET)
“The Curious Case of Dean Winchester” (CONTENT RATING TBD) (HDTV)

OLD MAN DEAN! — Sam (Jared Padalecki) and Dean (Jensen Ackles) discover a witch (guest star Hal Ozsan) is running a high-stakes poker game where the currency is life years vs. money. Bobby (Jim Beaver) sees the game as a chance to get out of the wheelchair and bets 25 years, but loses. As Bobby begins to age rapidly, Dean steps in to save him but also ends up turning into an old man, leaving Sam holding the bag for their survival. Robert Singer directed the episode with teleplay by Sera Gamble and story by Sera Gamble & Jenny Klein (e#507)
 
As for the continuing story of Dean and Sam, while I was pleased to see that several of my points (that Dean actually started this mess, that Sam didn't intend to start the end of Days by killing Lilith, just as Dean didn't plan to start those events by selling his soul), but I hated how they handled it.

Out of the blue Dean realizes that he is just as guilty as Sam. Sorry but why did he suddenly realize this?

I think your read on the situation is flawed. Last season when Dean was torturing Alistar he discovered that his first act of torture in hell broke the first seal. Did you miss the end of the episode when Castiel confirmed (and Dean was as pitiful as I've ever seen him)? Dean's issues have been haunting him all last season as well as this one.

All we have seen is his harping on his brother , we have seen no doubt about his own role.

And you have to admit, Dean's had good reason. But have you ever stopped to consider, after his personal experience in hell, that Dean was more frightened for Sam than ever? And since Dean isn't touchy and feely, his approach to try to keep Sam from going "dark side" (like he did) was to ride him even harder than ever.

But I think it really should have taken Sam (or Bobby or even Castiel, as they both know what started it) truly telling Dean what he did.

What? Dean already knows what he did.

Where was Sam telling Dean you were the one consorting with demons long before I ever did

Thankfully nowhere in this script, since Dean never got it on with a demon; that's Sam's trick. But I don't know why one brother has to tarred and feathered at the expense of the other. I love them both, but they both have their faults. I love that they are brothers, with all the baggage and (sometimes) rivalry of siblings, as well as the unconditional love. As Zachariah said, there is enough blame to go around for everyone, but Sam and Dean will survive this. :cool:
 
This to me is just as huge an issue (both in addressing the dynamic between Sam and Dean and that it can't stay teh same as its been throughout Dean's live, something that will not be easy to break especially when in contact with him), to acknowledging that his actions did as much damage and were done for very similar motives (both selfish and selfless) with both having far dire consequences then either truly imagined. I mean Dean's knowingly made a deal where he knew he would die, loss his soul and turn int a monster of him self. Sam new that his actions in stopping Lilith, might cost him his life and he might be turned into a monster. Dean's is actually worse because unlike Sam his is an absolute. From Bobby, to Dean, to Sam, to Castiel they didn't know for sure what would happen to Sam, just that those two were possibilities. And what where both of these two people doing such dramatic things for.

For Dean it was simply to bring his brother back. Dean couldn't live with himself with Sam dying (especially through actions of the YED). Sam did his because he wanted to punish the creature who took his brother to hell, and to stop the coming end of Days (and yeah he was told by multiple sources that stopping Lilith was what was needed to do this). So really Sam (who certainly did monstrous things, and that is a separate issue that I hope they don't drop) certainly risked what he did for a far more important thing then just one life.

And Dean needs to really grasp that (I think it is something Sam has really dealt with, both the good reasons and the bad ones), and I had hoped to see that get treated in a manner similar to all the other huge character moments that the show has done for him.

I think its just odd that such an important revelation is probably the most shoehorned one Dean has ever had on the show.


I don't know. To me this sounds like beating a dead horse. If you're unhappy about the "reconciliation" because you want to see Dean submit to Sam therapy to make things all better, then we really need to address how Sam allowed Ruby (the slut-whore demon) to kill a woman so that Sam could drink her blood to go after Lilith. I don't know... but, that is wrong on so many levels I don't know where to begin. Yet, I haven't heard anyone carping on that. (Not that I want to, but hopefully, you see my point.) Somethings may not be talked to death on screen, but I'm okay with that.

As for Sam being addicted to blood, I believe that Sam was addicted to the power and control as well as wanting to punish/stop Lilith. A lot of motives and emotions were influencing Sam last season and Ruby was there to manipulate and deceive him every step of the way. If anything seemed tacked on it was Sam's explanation as to why he trusted Ruby so much. Blech. :scream:

I agree with you that certain things have been glossed over, I guess I'm just not as concerned about having a confess and hug and weep episode to resolve them. But...that's just me. :lol:
 
What other show can boast that they featured the decapitation of Paris Hilton with an axe, nice and bloody?

Loved it. Wasn't that a take on some crappy horror movie she was in?

A surprisingly effective little stand alone eppy, and the pagan god was right. What is wrong with a society that would idolize vacant celebrity? Dude, Paris Hilton was wailing on you. :lol:
:guffaw::guffaw:

Say what you want about Paris; she had enough of a sense of humor to play the part.

I can't stand her, but maybe she really doesn't take herself so seriously in real life.
 
LeahBoBo

God, where to start.

First, I do want Sam to be beating himself over his head for what he has done (even stated that I want that to continue), in fact I love the fact that out of the last 7 episodes every single one of them in some form or another has Sam addressing these issues and or (mostly and) having someone else not letting him forget it either, both in nice and not so nice ways.

Nor am I stating that I want equal representation in number of episodes that are shown in dealing with an issue. For example, lets use Sam grieving for his Dad. Basically we got one episode of that (something the producers themselves admit they should have had done more with, but other story elements kept preventing that). But in that episode we got to see Sam process that. From him unconsciously jumping into the family business and doing what he thought Dad would want, to Dean tearing him a new one about it. No moments of him reflecting upon that, before he admitted that Dean was right, and he was trying to make up for all the lost time he had with his father. Sure it was all in one episode, but we saw the process.

As for Sam's motivation, yes they got tempered by power and addiction. But his primary motivations were their long before that addiction was. Remember he stopped his activities for what should have been months. But it was hearing that Dean saw only an early death for both of them that made him start back up.

But you are right I didn't fully say Sam's motivations (I thought two main parts were fairly understood). Sam felt a huge amount of regret in not being able to stop Dean from going to hell, and that he new he didn't do everything in his power to try and prevent it (for one he never tried to harness his abilities, due to Dean's reaction to them). He was filled with utter hatred for Lilith for harming Dean (compounded when he discovered what had actually happened to Dean in hell), those we're his first two motivations, then it was added having to keep Dean alive (as he clearly wasn't going to be able to stop Lilith), and making sure to stop the End of Days. Addiction didn't come into the equation until the latter half of the season. Hell he was strong enough to stop Samhein (a very powerful demon) and quit called turkey without any problems.

While I do agree that I didn't exactly buy Sam reason for trusting Ruby, the simply truth of the matter is that out of all the demon's or angels they meet (up until her betrayal of course), Ruby was never caught lying, never caught working for her own agenda, ect. She was the only one. For long over a year, Ruby on the service was being trust worthy. Sam is seeing Angel's who he believes are ultimate good (after all he was the believer, not Dean), and seeing them lie and kill and manipulate. And knowing that their are exceptions to everything (even if they are rare), it is certainly understandable that he would open up some what to her. Though even to the bitter end he never fully trusted her (otherwise wise he wouldn't have been questioning her).

Nor do I think it needs to be Sam to make Dean confront his own actions, it could have been anyone in the know, or even completely internal. After all we have gotten episodes that do deeply look at the characters inner view of what they are doing (When the leeves break, and What is and what should never be are great examples, or even In My Time of Dying and Mystery Spot).

And yes I do know that Dean has dealt with issues concerning his deal, his change in hell, breaking the first seal (in fact I use those of examples of how the show has shown character growth in a good, realistic way tv wise). And while this is certainly all connected. But I can't think of a single time that a major moment for Dean (or even Sam) when a character is told something or confronted over something major and after a brief fight, says look I know I am guilt of some of these same things. Never. And while Dean has been through hell (literally) that part of his character never really has been shown to change.

Like I said in my first post about this subject, I like the fact that the material is out there (that it was mentioned), I hate the fact that we have this great actor (in my opinion he is the best of any of the stars of this show, Sorry Jared, Misha, Katie, and Lauren and better then almost all the guests and reoccurring actors on this show) and he gets his character. I just feel that we the audience didn't get to see him come to that realization.

I also have stated (not in this thread, but one of the last two episodes), that so far this season feels really rushed to me. And not just in the fact that, events might be spirally out of control for these two faster and faster. But that the writers are putting two much material in each episode (I think Dean in the future was the only episode that seem just about right in that manner).

Since for myself this show is all about the two characters, I really don't care that much about the mythology or the monsters of the week (I don't dislike them, they just aren't what draws me to the show). So for me losing a big character moment is a huge blow to an episode.

And because of that fact, is really the only reason I have been harping on this issue.

Its the reason why I have complained about Dean's reaction to Castiel. Dean doesn't need to know everything Castiel has done (just as Sam may never tell Dean about the women he deliberately tortured to death, and Dean may never tell Sam the details of all the horrors he went through in hell), but I just can't see him blindly not understanding that Castiel isn't a true friend. I can understand Dean working with him and being social, but not being a friend. He knows for fact that Castiel is doing what he is doing for his own reasons, and not Deans. That if Castiel felt God wanted something, Castiel would do that, no questions asked.

Its those character beats that, just annoy the hell out of me........
 
I'm afraid I'm going to have to differ with you on Castiel, too, mswood. The dynamic he adds to the situation enriches it IMO. Why should Dean not trust Castiel because of a "what if God asked me to...?" situation that might never occur? Castiel cast off 2000 years of learned behavior to help Dean. That would indicate to me that he does value Dean a great deal even though they're sometimes at odds. There's conflict, but Castiel doesn't bring the family baggage that Sam (and Bobby) bring to his relationship with Dean. Dean's always felt the urge to protect Sam, been told it was his job. Even now, he's worried Sam could say yes to "Lucifer." Now there's complications with Bobby because Bobby is in a more needy position because of his disability. Castiel doesn't bring neediness to the table. That's got to appeal to Dean. Sam feeling a pang of jealousy might be an interesting situation.
 
Dorian

While it's true that Dean pushed Castiel into confronting issues he already was questioning (things like is God giving the orders, are we following God's will) all of which were primarily developed by his interactions with Anna, Uriel and Ass hat angel. The simple truth of the matter is that Dean doesn't in any way shape or form no God's will. As such he can not depend on having the loyalty of Castiel.

If God made his/her/its presence known and said let humanity rot, then Castiel would side with God. Every single objection he has had to the angels is due to him not knowing if this is God's will.

Yes Castiel has a "fondness" for Dean (though I don't think thats a good description), he is doing what he feels is correct. But if at any point he finds out God wants something else, then he will absolutely do it. He only started to disobey when he discovered that God might not be the one giving orders and even then just bent the rules, until he found this out for sure.

For him to utterly trust Castiel, is actually stupider then Sam trusting Ruby, because Dean absolutely knows that Castiel has his own agenda, while Sam only suspected that Ruby might have one.

And I do enjoy what Castiel brings to the show and have no problem with Dean having a working relationship with Castiel. But the idea of them becoming real friends? Yikes that is incredibly poor judgment.

Even if God told Castiel that Dean's path was the right one, I can't see a true friendship growing between them. Dean is human, Castiel exist on another plane. I mean seriously can you picture Dean becoming friends with a demon, a ghost, a vampire, ect.

Again even has much as Sam depended on Ruby, I don't think they were ever real friends. I just absolutely can't see that. Comrades yes (which has its own types of bonds), but friends no.
 
Oh and just for the record, these are my opinions, obviously everyone has those.

And the writers often co things (that I certainly wouldn't) for various reasons. Obviously time is a huge factor, we can look back over these episodes with a fine tooth comb, but sometimes (actual often) episodes don't get the full polish that the writers would like), they also have to judge what makes a succesful and entertaining episode (hell have the time I could spend the full episode over character study but damn that isn't want is good for the show). And the writers (unlike us) do have a map of these things. I can only judge what has aired, and not what still be planned for the characters. And of course, the writers know and live these characters to a degree that we can't.
 
I hope you are right. I love this show but this season has been rather average in my book so far.

On another note FOX are complete morons to move Fringe to thursday. They took a how that could easily have gone on for years and placed it in a time slot that may kill the show. Stupid.
 
While I do agree that I didn't exactly buy Sam reason for trusting Ruby, the simply truth of the matter is that out of all the demon's or angels they meet (up until her betrayal of course), Ruby was never caught lying, never caught working for her own agenda, ect. She was the only one. For long over a year, Ruby on the service was being trust worthy. Sam is seeing Angel's who he believes are ultimate good (after all he was the believer, not Dean), and seeing them lie and kill and manipulate. And knowing that their are exceptions to everything (even if they are rare), it is certainly understandable that he would open up some what to her. Though even to the bitter end he never fully trusted her (otherwise wise he wouldn't have been questioning her).

Sorry. I'm not giving Sam a pass on the whole Ruby thing. He is supposed to be the smart one. Sam had to know deep down inside his heart of hearts that Ruby didn't mean him any good. I will never be convinced that he wasn't lying to himself on that one.

And yes I do know that Dean has dealt with issues concerning his deal, his change in hell, breaking the first seal (in fact I use those of examples of how the show has shown character growth in a good, realistic way tv wise). And while this is certainly all connected. But I can't think of a single time that a major moment for Dean (or even Sam) when a character is told something or confronted over something major and after a brief fight, says look I know I am guilt of some of these same things. Never. And while Dean has been through hell (literally) that part of his character never really has been shown to change.

Okay. I see what you're saying, but I don't need that type of transparency. This is one of the things I love about Supernatural...they show, they don't tell. Everything that's happened to Dean (and continues to happen to Dean) shows me that he's changing. The big character moments you're missing would seem redundant to me.

Dean may never tell Sam the details of all the horrors he went through in hell), but I just can't see him blindly not understanding that Castiel isn't a true friend. I can understand Dean working with him and being social, but not being a friend. He knows for fact that Castiel is doing what he is doing for his own reasons, and not Deans. That if Castiel felt God wanted something, Castiel would do that, no questions asked.

Castiel is an angel. He is not human. He is only going to relate so much to humankind and even to Dean, who I believe Castiel is fond of. Castiel's detachment and otherness is what makes me LOVE him. I think Dean gets Castiel. And I LOVE that about Dean.

I love the mythology of this show and the monster of the week as much as I love the saga of Sam and Dean.

Who knew when Supernatural first aired that this show would be as rich and layered as it turned out to be? I was a huge Buffy the Vampire Slayer fan, but as far as attention to detail and continuity goes, Kripke and company are kicking Joss Whedon's ass. :lol:
 
I hope you are right. I love this show but this season has been rather average in my book so far.

On another note FOX are complete morons to move Fringe to thursday. They took a how that could easily have gone on for years and placed it in a time slot that may kill the show. Stupid.

Fox doesn't give a shit about Fringe. It's a Warners produced show. Fox wants to grow an audience for Glee and Lie to Me. It's sink or swim for Fringe, and with its finals dropped to 5.8 million for last Thursday's ep with a 2.1 in the adult demo, it looks like Fringe will sink. Interesting enough, TV by the numbers shows that Fringe adds almost exactly the same percentage as SPN in total viewers in the last DVR+7. Both shows added between 30 and 35 percent. They're canceling each other out IMO.

Othello, having read your posts in the past, I think 5x6 and 5x7 will appeal to you a lot. 5x6 will whiplash on us like "Mystery Spot" did--start out funny but get deadly serious. 5x7 looks to be pretty serious with some humor mixed in. If Bobby's so depressed that he did this, we're in for some good character work. It's 5x8 that's going to parody everything. Me, I like that stuff but it's not for everyone.

Is that Chad Everett from Medical Center way back in the day playing older Dean? I think it is. :eek:

SOON
 
I hope you are right. I love this show but this season has been rather average in my book so far.

On another note FOX are complete morons to move Fringe to thursday. They took a how that could easily have gone on for years and placed it in a time slot that may kill the show. Stupid.
Fox doesn't give a shit about Fringe. It's a Warners produced show. Fox wants to grow an audience for Glee and Lie to Me. It's sink or swim for Fringe, and with its finals dropped to 5.8 million for last Thursday's ep with a 2.1 in the adult demo, it looks like Fringe will sink. Interesting enough, TV by the numbers shows that Fringe adds almost exactly the same percentage as SPN in total viewers in the last DVR+7. Both shows added between 30 and 35 percent. They're canceling each other out IMO.
They really are. My mom is a fan of both shows, but when Fringe moved to Thursdays this season she decided to watch that instead of Supernatural. I watch Supernatural, but I would watch Fringe, too, if it weren't on at the same time.
 
me wonders if they take into account people watching via hulu or some other download medium?
 
The networks are made aware of the Live + 7{day) numbers that tvbythenumbers.com publishes. For example, tvbythenumbers.com just published the Live +7 numbers for episode 3, "Free to be You and Me." The live viewing was 2.66 million, the live +7 was 3.26 million. That doesn't include anyone who may have watched online in any capacity or who watched after the 7 days. The problem is that those numbers aren't included in Nielsens, so they can't be used to determine ad rates--which is how networks make their money. I'm sure the networks try to accumulate other data such as online viewing, but that also can't be used.

That being said, the parent company that produces the show also looks carefully at this data and (if the show is fortunate enough to be produced by the same studio--Warners is part of CW) sometimes that other data can influence decision making to a small degree--but the live ratings are always the biggest determinant. Supernatural has already been sold to so many foreign markets that it makes money for Warners studio, if not for CW itself. Every episode that's sold is additional money for Warners, so it put the pressure on Dawn Ostroff to keep it around when she wanted to get rid of it after season two. Supernatural is very fortunate that it's made by Warners, while Fringe isn't fortunate to be made by Warners. Warners has a stake in CW while it doesn't in FOX. Reaper was made by ABC Studios, so it was shit out of luck when Ostroff wanted to cancel it.
 
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