• Welcome! The TrekBBS is the number one place to chat about Star Trek with like-minded fans.
    If you are not already a member then please register an account and join in the discussion!

Superman

The Realist said:
I actually think John Byrne and his successors accomplished that very thing in the post-Crisis comics. Clark was burdened so heavily by his decision to execute three genocidal criminals that he suffered what amounted to a psychotic break, and subsequently exiled himself to deep space for months. The act of killing resonated long after the fact, and its results were explored in thoughtful and meaningful ways.

By contrast, the killing of Zod in Man of Steel struck me as existing purely for shock value, and to bolster Snyder's edgelord cred. It was cynical, ugly, and pointless.
Click to expand...
Mileage will vary, though the edgelord comment makes it harder to take seriously. I will say I like consequences but I feel there is a balance between psychotic break and nonchalant killing. Though I don't see Man of Steel as nonchalant. I think it was ugly on purpose.
 
fireproof78 said:
though the edgelord comment makes it harder to take seriously.
Click to expand...
So you don't think that accurately describes Snyder's brand?
I will say I like consequences but I feel there is a balance between psychotic break and nonchalant killing. Though I don't see Man of Steel as nonchalant. I think it was ugly on purpose.
Click to expand...
I wouldn't call it nonchalant, either. And it was ugly because Snyder sees the world as ugly, and as capable of morally corrupting even the likes of Superman, driving him to brutal killing and existential despair. (Superman in BvS: "No one stays good in this world.") A more fundamental mismatch of character and creator is difficult to imagine.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Sci
The Realist said:
So you don't think that accurately describes Snyder's brand?
Click to expand...
I do not.
The Realist said:
I wouldn't call it nonchalant, either. And it was ugly because Snyder sees the world as ugly, and as capable of morally corrupting even the likes of Superman, driving him to brutal killing and existential despair. (Superman in BvS: "No one stays good in this world.") A more fundamental mismatch of character and creator is difficult to imagine.
Click to expand...
With all due respect, seeing as how this matters way more to you than me, I can well imagine a person like Superman struggling with existential despair. So, I guess I don't see this has misunderstanding of the character but exploring it from a very human perspective. Maybe that misses the point...not sure.

I also don't see Superman's killing Zod as being morally corrupt either. But, that's me. Who is probably wrong or misunderstands Superman, or whatever.
 
I can only speak from my own perspective. To me, characters serve certain narrative functions, and moral despair and mortal violence are not Superman's.

(And I had pledged a while back to quit harping on Snyder's Superman, feeling it contributes to a poisonous atmosphere in these threads and the fandom. I now see I'm backsliding, so I'm going to stop here, with apologies.)
 
The Realist said:
I can only speak from my own perspective. To me, characters serve certain narrative functions, and moral despair and mortal violence are not Superman's.
Click to expand...
I guess it depends on the function. I find that facing those things and overcoming them could be very much a positive Superman story. I prefer that over the trend of generic platitudes without a reflection of the actual struggle in being aspirational.
 
cooleddie74 said:
To view this content we will need your consent to set third party cookies.
For more detailed information, see our cookies page.
Click to expand...

I really love the first season of ADVENTURES OF SUPERMAN. It's a noir and more gritty than the seasons that came after. Also, I prefer Phyllis Coates as Lois. She had the right spark and bite that I feel Noel didn't.
 
fireproof78 said:
I guess it depends on the function. I find that facing those things and overcoming them could be very much a positive Superman story. I prefer that over the trend of generic platitudes without a reflection of the actual struggle in being aspirational.
Click to expand...

I don't think that there's no room in the world of Superman for stories about existential despair, but I don't think Superman himself is the appropriate character to explore those concepts through. I would argue that it should be another character who suffers from existential despair, and that Superman's example should be what helps them overcome it.
 
An Orphan.

Almost the last of his species.

His only hope of having a baby without too many congenital defects is to make love to his underaged first cousin.

Consider "Super Senses". He hears and sees and smells everything that everyone does or says that is sinister or benign within a thousand miles of where he is standing, and he just has to ignore a lot of horrible things.
 
I don't think that there's no room in the world of Superman for stories about existential despair, but I don't think Superman himself is the appropriate character to explore those concepts through.
Click to expand...

Why not? Superman is just another individual with flaws, virtues and emotions like anyone else. Having superpowers shouldn't change that.
 
fireproof78 said:
I do not.
Click to expand...

Correct. Anyone using the inapplicable slur is childishly obsessed with the need to make the character their Santa/Daddy who delivers toys, rather than how the character's creators envisioned and delivered him.

I also don't see Superman's killing Zod as being morally corrupt either.
Click to expand...

In the real world, there have been and always will be people beyond negotiation, beyond conventional defeat and are unrelenting in their evil acts. No audience--using that as their historical awareness of such evil--is going to see a villain of that nature (e.g., the antagonists of Captain America - The First Avenger or Man of Steel) as needing to be handled with kid gloves when they have no intention--other than total death and destruction. To have Superman keep running his head into a wall trying to argue or do the George Reeves tired, finger-wagging BS with someone initiating a plan of Zod's nature, would make him seem utterly clueless. Man of Steel's Superman killed as a last resort to save a family--and a world. Few things could be more heroic than that.

Dee1891 said:
Why not? Superman is just another individual with flaws, virtues and emotions like anyone else. Having superpowers shouldn't change that.
Click to expand...

Ah, but thinking Superman cannot have flaws is the result of placing him on Mount Santa/Daddy as the smiling toy dispenser who--somehow--is not the character as originally created, or the one who shares the same world/threats as the other DC characters, where--when necessary--heroes kill.
 
Dee1891 said:
Why not? Superman is just another individual with flaws, virtues and emotions like anyone else. Having superpowers shouldn't change that.
Click to expand...

Again, I don't think the job of a Superman story is to be psychologically realistic or plausible to adults. Superman stories are children's moral power fantasies at their core, and I don't think Superman is supposed to be "just another individual with flaws, virtues, and emotions like anyone else." The world is full of stories about flawed individuals with emotions like anyone else. Give me something different from Superman.
 
Dee1891 said:
Why not? Superman is just another individual with flaws, virtues and emotions like anyone else. Having superpowers shouldn't change that.
Click to expand...
I agree and I love Superman because grief drives him to break a forbidden rule of interfering with human development. Flaws don't mean failure. For me, it's a logical exploration of an alien on Earth, feeling like an outsider. I feel like struggling helps with the relatable nature with an otherwise unrelatable character.
 
Sci said:
Again, I don't think the job of a Superman story is to be psychologically realistic or plausible to adults. Superman stories are children's moral power fantasies at their core, and I don't think Superman is supposed to be "just another individual with flaws, virtues, and emotions like anyone else." The world is full of stories about flawed individuals with emotions like anyone else. Give me something different from Superman.
Click to expand...

There have been plenty of stories where Clark or Kal have had to wrestle with their internal emotions--that's where great stories come from. He's been angry, lonely, depressed, without direction, and felt hopeless at various points. He's invulnerable but his friends and family are not--the point of a lot of Superman stories is that he's suffered emotionally or been tempted to cross some kind of similar line.
 
The Realist said:
It's a false binary to suggest that Superman can only be (a) completely without an inner life or any psychological depth, or (b) constantly drowning in misery and angst. Lots and lots of ground between those two extremes.
Click to expand...
For me, that's part of the greatness of the character--he's been around so long and has appeared in so many stories by different writing teams that a lot of different facets have been explored.
 
^ Yes, very much this.

There's a story I still remember from my childhood (this is early to mid 70s) where a "space pirate" manipulates Kal into helping her die. He really had a hard time dealing with it, but eventually saw that she was miserable in her semi-immortality. He also remembered Pa Kent telling him that death is part of life. Kal's struggle in the story has stuck with me for 45+ years. That's pretty powerful.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
If you are not already a member then please register an account and join in the discussion!

Sign up / Register


Back
Top