Supergirl - Season Four

[Jayson1]

You say that like there's a difference.

The difference is one is a terrorist group while the other WAS the government. The Sons of Liberty have more in common with something like ,The Proud Boys than ICE which is what they were turned into. Actually the D.E.O looked like they were going to be ICE but they seemed to chicken out by making sure none of the heroes got their hands dirty.

Jason

 

[Guy Gardener]

How many cities does Trump have to nuke before every one with a conscience in the armed forces considers resigning, because they are not the good guys any more?

 

[Charles Phipps]

Yes, I meant one being a terrorist organization and one being a government.

One becoming the other is a huge sign of badness.

It's why the X-men were never the same after the government started building Sentinels. That's when Magneto has won.

The elite were completely wasted and irrelevant to the main story arc. I would have preferred them to get their powers from the serum, and be the new beloved HUMAN heroes, juxtaposed with our normal trio of alien superheroes. Not sure how that could fit into the sons of liberty storyline, but would have been more true to the comics elite. They could have had extreme methods and been against humans AND aliens extremists or something, and respond in extreme kind.

I like that they're people who go after the bad guys without any rules or regulation. Supergirl vs. the Punisher.

And a decent question of whether Supergirl is in the right or not when the Sons of Liberty are murdering children in their beds whether or not just to execute them all.

Besides, they were 2 humans, 1/2 alien, and an alien.

How many cities does Trump have to nuke before every one with a conscience in the armed forces considers resigning, because they are not the good guys any more?

Alex resigning over the DEO rounding up all the aliens into cages is honestly a far more interesting story than the amnesia plot.

Supergirl can say, "You were supposed to protect them from the inside."

Alex would say, "I can't do that! All I can do is be the gun that gets pointed at kids!"

 

[JD]

...only if she's susceptible to the effects of whiny speeches about why she was lied to all along. Lena has all of the motiviation and potential to be a true villain, which would be a logical path for the character to take, since she claimed she's tried to escape the legacy of her brother, but it would be fitting--and good for the series--if in the end, she becomes a greater threat with no redemption arc.

I'm really hoping they don't go to far into making her a full on villain, she's a lot more interesting as the one good Luthor who is torn between her family and her friends.

 

[Phoenix219]

The difference is one is a terrorist group while the other WAS the government. The Sons of Liberty have more in common with something like ,The Proud Boys than ICE which is what they were turned into. Actually the D.E.O looked like they were going to be ICE but they seemed to chicken out by making sure none of the heroes got their hands dirty.

Jason

The entire DEO changed when J'onn took over from Henshaw. I'm sure its original mission statement was very much like ICE, and I say that in a very positive, protect our planet kind of way. Sorry, I don't and won't feel that the cops are the bad guys.

 

[Christopher]

Sorry, I don't and won't feel that the cops are the bad guys.

Sometimes they are, when the laws they enforce are unjust. Or when they're corrupt, or when the people giving them orders are corrupt.

 

[Jayson1]

Well when the show started aliens were still seen as the way they often are and that is scary threats to Earth and I am guessing that world has had many of those dangers in the past that even Superman didn't take care off. They weren't seen as a metaphor for American Immigrants at the time. They idea behind them does sort of make sense in a "Men in Black" kind of way.

Aliens usually have more advanced tech and super abilities that your regular services can't really combat. I do wish the show would remember their is a legit reason for them to exist and their is a difference between what they do than something like the FBI or CIA. If anything it would be fun to see something like "Men in Black" on the show also with a international presence where maybe it's ran by the United Nations. Aliens from Outer Space sort of impact the whole world and like in "Men Black" you could have them help process the regular citizens who just want to live on earth by finding them homes and getting started while also dealing with any alien invasions or criminals.


Jason

 

[David cgc]

That's one of the perennial problems with superhero stories trying to take on real-world persecution as a metaphor. It's a lot harder to do a story about a cop shooting first and asking questions later when they person they shot can literally shoot lasers from their eyes or throw cars around like baseballs.

Oddly, Supergirl seems pretty well-positioned to avoid that and have more MIB-style non-superhero-level aliens, but didn't. There's no reason why every single alien race should have some dangerous superpower. What if that nerd from Lockwood's origin story episode didn't shoot spikes from his arms when he was scared but did something stupid and useless, like blew up like a pufferfish, or had one of those lizard neck-fans pop out?

 

[Charles Phipps]

I'm really hoping they don't go to far into making her a full on villain, she's a lot more interesting as the one good Luthor who is torn between her family and her friends.

I don't see much point to making her a villain since we have Lex Luthor and Lilian to be the evil Luthors.

 

[TREK_GOD_1]

I'm really hoping they don't go to far into making her a full on villain, she's a lot more interesting as the one good Luthor who is torn between her family and her friends.

But her becoming a full-on villain is like a prophecy fulfilled; she's a Luthor and so many of her projects/goals have been less than anything having to do with serving the good of the world, she has made her own Lockwood type arguments about humanity needing an enhanced response to aliens (and experimented to reach that goal), and now, she discovers that the members of her entire personal world (In that city) has lied to her about everything. There should be no explanation to hand-wave her righteous indignation at everyone, as any reconciliatory behavior on her part would make her appear like she has no self-respect, and would just roll over to whatever the series leas characters tossed at her as an excuse.

The entire DEO changed when J'onn took over from Henshaw. I'm sure its original mission statement was very much like ICE, and I say that in a very positive, protect our planet kind of way. Sorry, I don't and won't feel that the cops are the bad guys.

No, they are not all bad, but part of an organization that has the rot of social and political manipulators from every end of the ideological book, which is why it has never been, or ever will be a perfect representation of law enforcement. However, for some, any form of law enforcement "earns" the default judgement of being wrong and/or evil even when they are not abusing their position, but following the legal mandates of the job.

I don't see much point to making her a villain since we have Lex Luthor and Lilian to be the evil Luthors.

Lex--or Cryer--is not a series regular, so everything about the use of Lex is on a limited basis. Lena is the next, logical person to take the Luthor "throne" and as I've said before, she has every reason to take that path.

 

[Charles Phipps]

Like I said, she's an actual nuanced character in a series that could use them.

Even Lex said she didn't have to be evil because her mother wasn't and that's only if you think nature triumphs over all.

 

[Phoenix219]

I still like the Elite as test subjects of Lena's experiments, true humans given powers, which the Children of Liberty / the mainstream public begins to adore as the "human" heroes the planet needs, regardless of how hardcore their "justice" is.... at first it looks like they target aliens, and the CoL think they have allies, only to find themselves the very next target of the "modern, hardcore" heroes, thus paralleling the original storyline a bit better.

 

[Charles Phipps]

I still like the Elite as test subjects of Lena's experiments, true humans given powers, which the Children of Liberty / the mainstream public begins to adore as the "human" heroes the planet needs, regardless of how hardcore their "justice" is.... at first it looks like they target aliens, and the CoL think they have allies, only to find themselves the very next target of the "modern, hardcore" heroes, thus paralleling the original storyline a bit better.

I don't think it'd work for the same reason it didn't work for Guardian as the reality subtext would interfere with the fantastic subtext.

I.e. they'd never support black superheroes.

 

[Phoenix219]

I don't think it'd work for the same reason it didn't work for Guardian as the reality subtext would interfere with the fantastic subtext.

I.e. they'd never support black superheroes.

That is quite an unsubstantiated presupposition on your part. Nothing but conjecture.

 

[JD]

But her becoming a full-on villain is like a prophecy fulfilled; she's a Luthor and so many of her projects/goals have been less than anything having to do with serving the good of the world, she has made her own Lockwood type arguments about humanity needing an enhanced response to aliens (and experimented to reach that goal), and now, she discovers that the members of her entire personal world (In that city) has lied to her about everything. There should be no explanation to hand-wave her righteous indignation at everyone, as any reconciliatory behavior on her part would make her appear like she has no self-respect, and would just roll over to whatever the series leas characters tossed at her as an excuse.

Completely disagree about it being a prophecy fulfilled, yes she has operated in a bit more of a grey area than the others, but not enough to make her a full on villain. I don't see any reason why she couldn't just talk to Kara, Alex and the others and just work out their issues.

 

[Charles Phipps]

That is quite an unsubstantiated presupposition on your part. Nothing but conjecture.

You don't think a bunch of anti-alien Neo-Nazis would be against black superheroes?

Or do you want the anti-alien Neo-Nazis to....NOT be racist?

Which is the dumbest thing they could possibly do with them.

Take note I'm assuming that no one is stupid enough to try and make the metaphor for Neo-Nazis seem to have a point.

 

[Christopher]

You don't think a bunch of anti-alien Neo-Nazis would be against black superheroes?

Or do you want the anti-alien Neo-Nazis to....NOT be racist?

It's a longstanding tradition in SF/fantasy racism allegories to have characters who are bigoted against aliens or robots or fantasy creatures, but are fine with other human races, and often who are themselves nonwhite (e.g. the real Hank Henshaw in this very show, or Will Smith's character in Bright). The whole point of allegory is that it isn't a one-to-one, literal match to the thing it symbolizes.

Besides, it's a fact of life that prejudice is often selective and inconsistent. There are plenty of people who have nothing against other races but are homophobic, or who would welcome a female president but not a Muslim one, or whatever. Prejudices are overcome one at a time, not all at once. So it's perfectly believable that someone could be fine with other humans but still hate aliens. If anything, the existence of aliens would make people more likely to perceive a common identity with other humans.

 

[Charles Phipps]

It's a longstanding tradition in SF/fantasy racism allegories to have characters who are bigoted against aliens or robots or fantasy creatures, but are fine with other human races, and often who are themselves nonwhite (e.g. the real Hank Henshaw in this very show, or Will Smith's character in Bright). The whole point of allegory is that it isn't a one-to-one, literal match to the thing it symbolizes.

Besides, it's a fact of life that prejudice is often selective and inconsistent. There are plenty of people who have nothing against other races but are homophobic, or who would welcome a female president but not a Muslim one, or whatever. Prejudices are overcome one at a time, not all at once. So it's perfectly believable that someone could be fine with other humans but still hate aliens. If anything, the existence of aliens would make people more likely to perceive a common identity with other humans.

This is interesting because I always felt the reverse was a major part of the appeal of fantasy allegories. As I pointed out to a friend of mine, the big appeal of the X-men isn't that they're a fantasy metaphor for minorities but the fact that Storm is black, Kitty Pryde is Jewish, and Northstar is gay but they've all come together because of a shared commonality. It was unwittingly "Intersectionality the Comic." So, my assumption is that people like the Friends of Humanity are still going to be bigoted against other groups in addition to their hatred of aliens.

 

[Guy Gardener]

Everytime Magneto starts speechifying, all Mutants seem oppressedly Jewish.

 

[Christopher]

So, my assumption is that people like the Friends of Humanity are still going to be bigoted against other groups in addition to their hatred of aliens.

Assumptions are dangerous. There's surely some fiction where bigots are portrayed that way, but there's a wealth of it that portrays it the way I said.

One interesting example that's close to what you're suggesting but not quite was the Alien Nation TV series's tie-in novel Slag Like Me by Barry Longyear. The cop leads in the show (a human and his alien-refugee partner) were investigating what they thought was an anti-alien hate crime against an interspecies couple, but it turned out that the racist killer was actually after the human partner for being non-white, and was okay with the white-appearing aliens. But that also illustrates my point, because it shows that bigotry is selective -- the killer hated nonwhites but had no problem with nonhumans. Which was a clever reversal of the usual sci-fi racism where people are fine with all kinds of humans but hate aliens, or zombies, or androids, or elves, or whatever the surrogate minority is.