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Supergirl - Season Four

^ I keep saying I'm not supporting Black's actions. I'm trying to get you to acknowledge that you defend one murderous character because you like him better, you like his show better, and most of all, you hate Proctor more than Lockwood and his "Children," because you are sympathetic to the latter's agenda (which is why you keep soft-pedaling them by equating them with "anti-immigration advocates," instead of the fanatical terrorists and killers they are).

Of course, I like Gambi more as a character too, because the show cues you to. He's one of the heroes, albeit one who's presented as deeply morally compromised. Don't forget, Proctor is only one of several people we've seen him summarily execute, one as recently as last week. But you'll justify and forgive those murders, too, and so will I, because he's "Uncle Gambi."

Supergirl, on the other hand, is not cuing us to approve of Black's actions, though we are invited to have some sympathy for the character because of his tragic loss, and because the actor is so charismatic. But Kara and J'onn are appalled by what he's doing. They're our heroes, and they're clearly set in opposition to him. We're also supposed to see his violence as a betrayal of the memory of the saintly Fiona. So I don't know where you're getting the idea the showrunners are on his side, or that we're supposed to be. Yes, the show definitely thinks that "anti-immigration advocates" are motivated by fear and ignorance at best, and outright hatred and xenophobia at worst. But Kara, J'onn, and James are our models for how to counter those evils, not Black and his ruthless violence.
 
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^ Nope.

You're using false equivalencies to support MB's mass murders. Gambi is trying to clean up a problem he was involved with--that's just part of atonement. Black is just a revenge-minded killer. The only bias present is the showrunners using MB as their fantasy reaction to anti-immigration advocates, and I'm not just talking about a stand against Liberty types, but anyone, since there has not been an honestly balanced, in-series debate about the subject (and there needs to be) since the Lockwood "origin" episode.

You don't like The Realist's Gambi example, let's look at Oliver Queen, who started out doing exactly what Manchester Black is doing.
 
While it is a very narrow distinction; Oliver went after criminals who were otherwise untouchable, protected by money, power and the facade of respectability with the intent of cleaning up a deeply corrupt city. Gambi so far seems to keep his casualties restricted to other people in the life like him (assassins and mercenary types) typically while they're actively attempting to murder other people. Mostly for the primary purpose of cleaning up a mess he helped make.

Manchester is murdering people who are mostly ordinary (if deeply misguided) for the sole purpose of personal revenge with little to no concern as to the collateral damage.

The distinction is that the latter two, however morally questionable, did what they did for essentially selfless reasons. (Though I suppose on some level atonement could be construed as basically selfish.) Manchester is just in it for his own satisfaction.

That doesn't make what Oliver or Gambi do/did morally right or course, but they're a little further into the grey than Manchester.
 
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Maybe Lockwood is a Trekkie?

John Gil (from Patterns of Force) decided that the Nazis were super-efficient at taking a divergent race of individuals and honing them into fine point, but flip the message. Brainwashing half a billion persons to be good, instead of goose stepping fascists.

Not that Gill is remembered for having his shit together.
 
Oliver was killing people indiscriminately out of a desire for revenge, just like Manchester; he simply justified it by saying that he was rectifying his family's sins.

Manchester doesn't need to justify what he's doing because he has no real moral qualms over his actions.
 
Also, it's not like Ollie's past murders didn't come back to haunt him. Not only did they have an entire season's Big Bad draw his motivation from it, Ollie was actually send to prison for them. How could anybody think Manchester Black would not end up paying for his killings.
 
While it is a very narrow distinction; Oliver went after criminals who were otherwise untouchable, protected by money, power and the facade of respectability with the intent of cleaning up a deeply corrupt city. Gambi so far seems to keep his casualties restricted to other people in the life like him (assassins and mercenary types) typically while they're actively attempting to murder other people. Mostly for the primary purpose of cleaning up a mess he helped make.

Manchester is murdering people who are mostly ordinary (if deeply misguided) for the sole purpose of personal revenge with little to no concern as to the collateral damage.

The distinction is that the latter two, however morally questionable, did what they did for essentially selfless reasons. (Though I suppose on some level atonement could be construed as basically selfish.) Manchester is just in it for his own satisfaction.

That doesn't make what Oliver or Gambi do/did morally right or course, but they're a little further into the grey than Manchester.
Very nicely articulated, and I don't actually disagree. I was just challenging TREK_GOD_1 (always a worthy sparring partner) for his thundering moral condemnation of Manchester for killing one variety of murderous bigot, while pointing out that Gambi killing a different kind of murderous bigot didn't elicit nearly the same outrage from him.
 
I can't recall if Mick Rory, Earth-1 Killer Frost and Charlie ever killed anybody, but out of the incumbent good guys on the CW, at least the following have murdered people: Sara Lance, Laurel Lance (E2), Oliver Queen, and Gambi. Supergirl even joked about Sara being an assassin when she slept with her sister, because that's certainly a joking matter. Yet Manchester wasn't all right to her even before he was known to have murdered anyone. It's not like ‘serial killer’ is something written on one's face, before prejudging people, Kara should ask Oliver on how he failed to spot another one just like him.

Though I'm way more concerned about the Flash, because each episode starts with Barry bragging “People are dying because of my reckless behaviour, but don't worry, I'm going to do more of it to fix it, because I'm the only one fast enough to wreak havoc at such extraordinary rate.” At this point I'm surprised he isn't getting the Oliver Queen treatment. The Time Bureau should lock him, not Nora Darhk – for Flashpoint, then the FBI need to prosecute him for the satellite debris, and there are several more of his screwups that either of them can go after him on. Barry's technically an alien from another universe on Earth-38, the DEO would have jurisdiction, maybe the new boss from out of town can save the multiverse by giving Barry and his daughter time to think their actions through during their next crossover.

Speaking of the comparison between Gambi and Manchester – Gambi's actions seemed less unforgivable during the episode than during the recap the next week. Taking it out of context of him facing his assassin made it look so much worse – I quivered when I saw that scene again, and felt uncomfortable with him throughout the rest of the episode. With Manchester there seems to be the opposite problem – there wasn't enough context on his unnamed victims, so you could have taken them for as simply parts of a uniform lynching mob that was about to storm the houses of the aliens when Manchester murdered them, but in reality they were angry bigoted but hurt people not all of whom knew they were part of a lynching mob and that actual deaths were the goal. That wasn't something that was completely conveyed to the viewer when they were all wearing a mask of hate when Manchester went on his murder spree.

However, in spite of that, Supergirl still managed to unequivocally paint him as crossing every line, and this behaviour as plainly unforgivable, regardless of how you perceived the person it was aimed at. I went you from feeling a moment relief that the aliens would be safe that night, to gut-wrenching realization of how that safety was ensured I found no comfort in. The entire clusterfuck, with Manchester in it, is terrible from end to the other. The show this season has had zero problem depicting nuance in an exploding pot without mixing up their moral compass in the process, and without accidentally approving of abhorrent behaviour like some of my other favourite shows have successfully done in the past.
 
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I can't recall if Mick Rory, Earth-1 Killer Frost and Charlie ever killed anybody

Rory/Heat Wave has killed a lot of people in his past, including his own parents, IIRC. As for KF, I think she's always stopped short of killing, at least post-Savitar. As for Charlie, there's no indication yet that she's ever killed anyone. She's just a punk and a rebel, not a villain.
 
Lena showed up in the Luthor household when she was almost a teenager... Two attractive horny kids under the same roof who are not blood relations, and barely know each other?

Of course, cough, they were secretly blood relatives, all along, but they didn't know that at the time.
 
Manchester is murdering people who are mostly ordinary (if deeply misguided) for the sole purpose of personal revenge with little to no concern as to the collateral damage.

I think "deeply misguided" is soft-peddling it a bit. As I recall, the five guys Manchester shot in the back were brutal home invaders who were beating an alien man to a pulp in front of his toddler daughter before Manchester intervened.

Not saying he was right to appoint himself judge, jury, and executioner, but let's not those generously characterize his victims as "ordinary guys" who were just "misguided." Ordinary guys don't break doors down and beat innocent people in front of their children, and who knows how far they would have gone had they not been interrupted. That's way beyond "misguided."
 
I think "deeply misguided" is soft-peddling it a bit. As I recall, the five guys Manchester shot in the back were brutal home invaders who were beating an alien man to a pulp in front of his toddler daughter before Manchester intervened.

Not saying he was right to appoint himself judge, jury, and executioner, but let's not those generously characterize his victims as "ordinary guys" who were just "misguided." Ordinary guys don't break doors down and beat innocent people in front of their children, and who knows how far they would have gone had they not been interrupted. That's way beyond "misguided."
Definitely agree on your larger point about the show's poor, misunderstood "anti-immigration advocates," but Black met the guys he shot at the front door of a home before they could commit whatever violence they'd planned. The group beating the man in front of his daughter was stopped by Spike the Fire-Breathing Alien Dragon. :techman:
 
I think "deeply misguided" is soft-peddling it a bit. As I recall, the five guys Manchester shot in the back were brutal home invaders who were beating an alien man to a pulp in front of his toddler daughter before Manchester intervened.

You're conflating two different attacks there; Manchester confronted those Children of Liberty on the front porch of the house they were targeting and shot them as they were running away from the house. It was a different group that attacked the man and his daughter a few moments later.

Still, you're right that the men he shot intended to break in and assault or murder the occupants of that house, as part of a systematic terrorist attack, essentially a pogrom.
 
Definitely agree on your larger point about the show's poor, misunderstood "anti-immigration advocates," but Black met the guys he shot at the front door of a home before they could commit whatever violence they'd planned. The group beating the man in front of his daughter was stopped by Spike the Fire-Breathing Alien Dragon. :techman:

Oops. You're right. I conflated those scenes in my memory.
 
^ I keep saying I'm not supporting Black's actions. I'm trying to get you to acknowledge that you defend one murderous character because you like him better, you like his show better,

Which is not based on anything I'm pointing out about the characters. You are continuing to paint a false equivalency between Manchester Black and Gambi; as others have pointed out, Black is simply a revenge-motivated murderer. There is no equivalency for that, nor can his actions be compared to the thing you continue to step over--Gambi taking responsibility for his role in a government program that destroyed lives going back several generations. That--again--is a form of atonement, and from every episode of Black Lightnign aired so far, he's carrying a world of guilt for his participation in the ASA program. Manchester Black is simply a mass murderer, yet you are certainly trying to couch his actions in morally questionable "well he did it, too!" arguments.


While it is a very narrow distinction; Oliver went after criminals who were otherwise untouchable, protected by money, power and the facade of respectability with the intent of cleaning up a deeply corrupt city. Gambi so far seems to keep his casualties restricted to other people in the life like him (assassins and mercenary types) typically while they're actively attempting to murder other people. Mostly for the primary purpose of cleaning up a mess he helped make.

Exactly.

Manchester is murdering people who are mostly ordinary (if deeply misguided) for the sole purpose of personal revenge with little to no concern as to the collateral damage.

Yes, and as of the latest episode, he was willing to sacrifice Supergirl to continue his revenge/murder plot.

The distinction is that the latter two, however morally questionable, did what they did for essentially selfless reasons. (Though I suppose on some level atonement could be construed as basically selfish.)

I think the difference with Gambi is that his first motivation is to end the program he was a part of--that action has as its first goal the protection of those already living with their mutated status and anyone who might be targeted in the future. Atonement is there, of course, but he's taking responsibility for his actions.

Manchester is just in it for his own satisfaction.

Agreed.

That doesn't make what Oliver or Gambi do/did morally right or course, but they're a little further into the grey than Manchester.

Yes, they are not Boy Scouts, but no one can make a straight-face argument that places the motives for Oliver and/or Gambi's actions on the same level as Manchester Black.
 
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