Spoilers Supergirl - Season 2
- Thread starter Commander Richard
- Start date
I was around when the Crisis came -- I understand how unnecessary it really was (though an amazing series by Wolfman & Perez)...but part of it (behind the scenes) is that you had very different but similar properties, like Shazam, for example, that worked better separately..and the variations like the Evil Earth 3, or multiethnic universes.
That's not the case with with Supergirl and Flash... they have the same overseer, and now the same location.
Also, isn't the reason they are in different universes is due to CBS & CW having different rights? That was the problem... and why it was not a problem once COnstantine was canceled for him to jump on Arrow. Did it mess your view of both shows?
If the Justice League movies don't take off... a TV Justice League might be what's needed to salvage it from the DCFU. (Though if Geoff Johns does indeed have more power, and less from Zack Snyder, that might now be the case)
Change is good and all --but only if it makes sense, and doesn't disrupt the essence of the characters and teams.
Having Wonder WOman in WW1 rather than WW2 is a big change -- but I think can work out great. But since DCTV can't have Superman, having SUpergirl part of a future Justice League along with Flash will be great.
I call the Crisis era and the mess following the Bronze age -- and I see your point of the futility of that messing around. .. we need a Platinum Age to help re-set things and move it forward.
But the TV shows will be fine if they are united (and I am not expecting or wanting Gotham to be part of that mix...though could be intriguing)
For many years I have had the idea of a new take, or reboot, in that Superman and Supergirl could both exist on their own separate Earths. Each would be the lone survivor of Krypton in their universes. They would met and have crossovers whenever stories warranted. They would still see each other as family.
I think it would allow Superman to stay true to the original idea of being the sole survivor. Along with giving Supergirl her own identity. Without having to answer the question of why Superman is not around to help all the time. But not abandoning her from the mythology either. Just an idea, I do not it would change the fundementals of the characters much at all really.
I think it would allow Superman to stay true to the original idea of being the sole survivor. Along with giving Supergirl her own identity. Without having to answer the question of why Superman is not around to help all the time. But not abandoning her from the mythology either. Just an idea, I do not it would change the fundementals of the characters much at all really.
Everyone seems to be getting ahead of themselves and here I am wondering who was in that ship Kara opened. There's also Cadmus which I hope gets fully addressed. The idea of a mega event is nice but I hope it doesn't detract from the individual shows.
Hell, when the series wraps up - why not do one final crossover with the "Legends of Tomorrow" group (who'll probably be wrapping as well) and have a story that ends up dropping Kara off in the 31st century as a member of the Legion of Superheroes (and Braniac 5 of course.
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That's not "announced" so much as "hinted." All he really said was "just imagine what our December crossover will look like." Yes, a four-show crossover is the likely interpretation of that, but that's the media's interpretation, not the actual statement. It's not an announcement if they don't actually say it.
So what if something in the past did it a certain way? This isn't that! Adaptation means change. That is the whole point -- to do something new, not just copy the past. The fact that it was done a certain way in the past isn't an argument in favor of doing it the same way -- on the contrary, it's the best possible reason to do it a different way.
The Berlantiverse is a new creation inspired by the DC Comics universe. It is not identical to it. It has its own distinct identity and approach. That's why Felicity Smoak is the Green Arrow's sidekick and love interest instead of a rival for Firestorm. That's why half of Firestorm is Jefferson Jackson instead of Ronnie Raymond or Jason Rusch. That's why we have a geeky tech guy named Curtis Holt instead of a superhero named Michael Holt. That's why Sara Lance or Winn Schott, Jr. exists at all. That's why Maxwell Lord is a morally ambiguous scientist-industrialist instead of an evil PR guy with mind-control powers. That's why Hank Henshaw was the head of the DEO instead of a Reed Richards knockoff who got cyborg powers on a space voyage.
No, the reason they're in different universes is because the Arrowverse had already established that there were no widely-known superpowered individuals in the world before the STAR Labs explosion. There was no room in the Arrowverse for a Superman. Constantine fit in fine because they were introducing magic and the supernatural to Arrow anyway, and because Constantine's exploits were not widely known to the public like Superman's would be.
Besides, you're unquestioningly assuming that being in different universes is somehow a problem that needs to be fixed. I reject that assumption. I see it as a good thing in its own right. I don't care why it happened -- I like it this way. If the universes are different, it opens more story possibilities. It gives them each a unique character -- Earth-1 more defined by metahumans and magic and weird science, Earth-SG more defined by alien visitors and alien technology. It makes their interactions more fun because of the contrasts between their worlds. It's not a problem, it's an opportunity.
Which is exactly what I'm saying. What other interpretations of the characters did in the past is irrelevant. Any story, even one adapted from an earlier source, needs to be true to its own internal continuity and identity, even if that conflicts with how the original did things. The Arrowverse and the Superverse are their own entities with their own established continuities and identities. Forcing them to copy what comics did 30 years ago would be an arbitrary disruption of their essence as the shows that they are.
Sure, but why in the world would that require collapsing the universes? As I've been saying over and over, it's ridiculously easy to have the characters cross between universes. Just say there's a permanent rift between them, or say the Waverider can cross between realities as well as times, or just give Flash and Supergirl the ability to cross universes at will by running really fast and vibrating the right way. There are multiple ways you could enable the characters to commute between universes almost as easily as Barry and Oliver can commute between Central City and Star City. You don't need to collapse the two cities into a single Startral City to make crossovers happen, so why the hell would you need to collapse the universes?
They're already fine. Don't fix what isn't broken. You haven't given a single reason for why a combined universe would be better than two different ones.
I liked crisis, streamlining the Universes, and giving a sense of history and legacy to the characters. I liked how the golden age heroes begat the silver age, who's side kicks grew up to be full heroe's in their own right. Thats not to say that there couldn't be a vague multiverse (Elseworlds/Hypertime meant that even post Crisis, the multiverse still existed in *some* manner).... but giving the primary Universe that we watch one solid timeline and history is *not* a bad thing.... I loved the first 10 years or so post Crisis, honestly. The problem was mismanaging it after the fact, continuing with rash decisions and no overall plan. If they weren't making things up as they went along, Crisis could have been pretty ingenious. Unlike New 52, most of the "history" pre crisis was supposed to have still happened in a similar if slightly different fashion.
I would absolutely love it if the TV verse drew them all in to one universe - variations of the existing shows retconned in - Golden Age Heroes in the 90s with Shipp/Garrick, Smallville's first 5 seasons launching Superman and introducing his cousin, the Aquaman pilot with Hartley (where he made a much better Arthur then Oliver, IMO)...then the Arrowverse proper. Thats a pretty fully developed history and League if you ask me... i know its not likely and most people would complain.... just my preference.
I would absolutely love it if the TV verse drew them all in to one universe - variations of the existing shows retconned in - Golden Age Heroes in the 90s with Shipp/Garrick, Smallville's first 5 seasons launching Superman and introducing his cousin, the Aquaman pilot with Hartley (where he made a much better Arthur then Oliver, IMO)...then the Arrowverse proper. Thats a pretty fully developed history and League if you ask me... i know its not likely and most people would complain.... just my preference.
I don't want any recasting and I don't think it's necessary. They can just have him on when he's available. And if his show gets cancelled, he can come back on a more frequent basis. If he's gone a lot though, that'll put his budding relationship with Alex on the back burner.
I hadn't thought of that...if they don't seriously improve the show, I'm not sure I could make it through a strung-out full-sized season....
Then there's the My Three Sons / Family Affair option, which could have her filming all of her scenes for a block of episodes at once, with the rest of the filming working around that.
Berlanti and Co. could have developed Supergirl in such a way that it could have fit on "Earth-1" of the Arrowverse, but they didn't want to do a series about Kara without Clark being around, even on the periphery, and, as Christopher pointed out, there was no way to set the show on Earth-1 and account for the existence of Superman without massively rewriting and retconning a combined 6 seasons' worth of setup.
IOW, even if the show had ended up on The CW from the beginning, it would not have been set on "Earth-1" because the basic setup of its premise and mythology would not have allowed it to be.
IOW, even if the show had ended up on The CW from the beginning, it would not have been set on "Earth-1" because the basic setup of its premise and mythology would not have allowed it to be.
But some of that had already happened pre-Crisis -- Dick becoming Nightwing, Jason becoming Robin (though pre-Crisis Jason was just a Dick Grayson clone with lighter hair), etc.
And even if it was a good reason for the comics combining the continuities, that doesn't apply to the shows. Both universes are still relatively young, there is no older tradition of heroes from another generation, and the closest thing there is to that kind of "legacy" relationship is Superman and Supergirl, who are already in the same universe.
But it already has that. There are, counting Constantine and Vixen, five different shows that belong to the Arrowverse (plus various webseries and tie-in comics, though I don't know if those are canonical). It's already a very large shared timeline and history. Adding a second timeline alongside it will not make that go away. It's not a zero-sum game where having one option precludes the other. It's perfectly possible to have both at once. We already do have both at once, and it's working out fine.
At the very least, I would like to see parts of Smallville retconned into Supergirl, then, giving a sense of history to Supergirl's Earth, as well. Maybe the '90s Flash, some JSA, a soft retcon of Smallville (allowing Welling as the unseen Clark on Supergirl) and the SG show itself can be the merged timeline opposite the Arrowverse timeline. Maybe Alex Kingston's Dinah Lance from the Arrowverse actually DID become Canary on Shipp's Earth.
Like Christopher said, there's literally no reason at this point to collapse the CW DC Universe's (CWDCU) internal Multiverse, because everything co-exists just fine.
I cannot express how much I dislike this idea. Smallville was really not a very good iteration of the Superman mythos. It was conceived as an attempt to rework the Superboy story into something as far removed from its comic-book roots as possible and more like a Dawson's Creek-style teen drama. It dragged on far too long and fell into a terrible rut, and when it finally started to embrace the superheroics, it was still stuck with the arbitrary refusal to put Clark in a costume and call him Superman, so we got the utterly absurd situation of practically every major event in the Superman saga happening before there was a Superman. It had its good points here and there, but on the whole it was a dreadful mess conceptually and should never, ever be the model for any other iteration of Superman. And I was never convinced that Tom Welling could ever grow up to be Superman. I don't think he was a good choice for the part, and I think his characterization was pretty terrible for much of the series's run.
Besides, Supergirl has already done a perfectly good job establishing a sense of history all on its own, building its own version of the Superman saga as an important part of the show's backstory. It doesn't need help from some other continuity, especially one as royally screwed-up as Smallville.
That said, if they wanted to cast Michael Rosenbaum as Lex Luthor, just as a reuse of a fine actor, I wouldn't object. Just as long as they got someone better than Welling to play Superman.
I agree with Christopher wholeheartedly when it comes to Smallville; the series was okay, but Supergirl's Earth doesn't need its history, which is incompatible with Supergirl's backstory anyway unless you suddenly strip Season 7 and part of Season 9 from its continuity in order to get rid of Laura Vandervoort's Kara Zor-El/Kara Kent, since Supergirl didn't exist on Earth-S until the events of the Supergirl pilot.
Yeah, SV had it's moments, but they were scarce and strechted over too long a period. Plus, anyone complaining about MoS's portrayal of Jonathan Kent should look at SV as the blueprint for what was wrong with it. There was that moment in season 2 when Jonathan was in the hospital in a coma or something and Martha told Clark how she fell in love with him because he believed in people, while everything else the character actually did and said on the show suggested the exact opposite. He was deeply distrustful of strangers, friends, even his own family, and if people didn't do as he said, he'd scream and yell at them for it. And don't Clark dare use his powers when people might see him, regardless whether people were in danger or not.
Now, if they ever actually have Superman appear properly on the show, if they were gonna go with a past Superman, they should just go ahead and put Routh back in the suit. They could even have Routh-Superman and the Atom meet and notice how they look alike, and Ray could theorize whether or not they were each other's doppelganger (obviously not, but it would still be a fun scene).
Now, if they ever actually have Superman appear properly on the show, if they were gonna go with a past Superman, they should just go ahead and put Routh back in the suit. They could even have Routh-Superman and the Atom meet and notice how they look alike, and Ray could theorize whether or not they were each other's doppelganger (obviously not, but it would still be a fun scene).
That's exactly what I meant by soft reboot/reton - I really enjoyed the first 5 years or so of Smallville, and I beg to differ on the Welling issue; I think he would to just fine in the role, and there is always the option of only seeing him as Clark. Lex was fantastic, and Durance was a pretty damn good Lois. The Kents were pretty good, too. Parts of Smallville, leading to the unseen Superman adventures that Supergirl refers to, and now the series we are watching, with the core of Welling/Durance/Rosenbaum reprising their roles when needed, would be absolutely pitch perfect IMO.
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