Just because its contained to some people within Starfleet who decide to do their own thing, doesn't make it a Starfleet organization.
Structure of Starfleet
- Thread starter Vastator
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But you quoted Memory Alpha? What's the difference? They're both wikis and subject to the same potential pitfalls.
One of which, of course, is that one shouldn't take the intimations of a professional liar like Sloan as any kind of gospel truth. It was quite clear to me from the episodes that, whatever mandate Section 31 likes to claim for itself, it operates far outside the parameters of Starfleet. After all, if it is 'rogue', then by definition it doesn't belong in any kind of official organization and hierarchy.
Fictitiously yours, Trent Roman
On a general note, should we really always assume that a Starfleet Division or Command exists if the corresponding shipboard service branch exists?
A starship seems to have a Security Department, and we know there's a thing called Starfleet Security. But a starship seems to have a Tactical Department as well, and we never heard of Starfleet Tactical. And Starfleet Operations probably plays a role very different from a starship's Operations Department. There is no direct evidence that a Starfleet Communications Division or Communications Command would exist, either, even though some organization under some other name might play a communications role of some sort.
There no doubt are several very esoteric Divisions or Commands under the Starfleet umbrella if Terraform Command is any example to go by. But I'd draw the limit somewhere, and concentrate on things familiar from today's fighting navies and things extrapolable from the known needs of a space exploration and exploitation organization. There might be all sorts of Planning Departments, but "Long Range Threat Assessment" probably wouldn't warrant an entire Division, more like an Office.
Timo Saloniemi
A starship seems to have a Security Department, and we know there's a thing called Starfleet Security. But a starship seems to have a Tactical Department as well, and we never heard of Starfleet Tactical. And Starfleet Operations probably plays a role very different from a starship's Operations Department. There is no direct evidence that a Starfleet Communications Division or Communications Command would exist, either, even though some organization under some other name might play a communications role of some sort.
There no doubt are several very esoteric Divisions or Commands under the Starfleet umbrella if Terraform Command is any example to go by. But I'd draw the limit somewhere, and concentrate on things familiar from today's fighting navies and things extrapolable from the known needs of a space exploration and exploitation organization. There might be all sorts of Planning Departments, but "Long Range Threat Assessment" probably wouldn't warrant an entire Division, more like an Office.
Timo Saloniemi
Actually, we have, in "The Best of Both Worlds".
"Admiral Hanson and Lieutenant Commander Shelby of Starfleet Tactical have arrived to review the disappearance of New Providence colony."
Yeah was also going to mention that Starfleet Tactical was mentioned in TNG. Infact, the Buried Age's Long-range Threat Assessment and Response Division was I think mentioned being a part of Tactical which kind of made me decide to start a topic on this subject.
Speaking of Tactical, Memory Alpha says that it handles tactics and weapon development so would Research & Development fall under their territory? Or would they have their own research and development branch?
Speaking of Tactical, Memory Alpha says that it handles tactics and weapon development so would Research & Development fall under their territory? Or would they have their own research and development branch?
The whole idea of a special branch "handling tactics" sounds absurd to begin with. "Tactics" is the art of employing units in combat, and it's something that must be practiced directly by the people in charge of employing said units. It cannot be "handled" by a bunch of other people in a room somewhere else, unless said room is the actual command center of said units.
Okay, so perhaps Starfleet Tactical indeed concentrates on "tactics and weapons development", that is, "tactics development and weapons development". There would be some merit to preplanning of standard tactics, in addition to formulating and utilizing tactics directly on the field. Such a job description would also match the "Best of Both Worlds" usage, of course. But that would be a good example of there being little or no correlation between a starship Department and a Starfleet Division, as the Tactical Department of a starship would not be performing any development of tactics or weapons, but instead would concentrate on applying them.
Timo Saloniemi
Okay, so perhaps Starfleet Tactical indeed concentrates on "tactics and weapons development", that is, "tactics development and weapons development". There would be some merit to preplanning of standard tactics, in addition to formulating and utilizing tactics directly on the field. Such a job description would also match the "Best of Both Worlds" usage, of course. But that would be a good example of there being little or no correlation between a starship Department and a Starfleet Division, as the Tactical Department of a starship would not be performing any development of tactics or weapons, but instead would concentrate on applying them.
Timo Saloniemi
In what possible sense of the term can Section 31 be said to be a division of Starfleet if it doesn't operate under Starfleet's authority, doesn't answer to Starfleet Command or the Federation government, doesn't receive funding or resources from them... Etc? It's a conspiracy, a criminal organization that exists within Starfleet. But that doesn't make it a part of Starfleet any more than two Starfleet officers being on the Orion Syndicate's payroll makes the Orion Syndicate a part of Starfleet.
That was basically my thinking. Since Admiral Hanson in BOBW was involved with developing responses to the long-range threat of the Borg, I figured that would be his specific division within Tactical. I believe I based the name on the discussion of "Tactical Policies" on p. 133 of the TNG Tech Manual.
I would assume that most of Starfleet's R&D is in the fields of engines, sensors, scientific equipment, life support, etc. rather than purely weapons. Starfleet is an exploratory, diplomatic, and support organization as well as a defensive one, so weaponry and combat would just be one limited facet of its activities.
Why would crimes involving telepathy need to be treated differently from other crimes? I imagine telepathic espionage would be handled by the same people who handle regular espionage, telepathic violations by whoever has jurisdiction over rape cases, etc.
Fictitiously yours, Trent Roman
I don't see any evidence of this being a dedicated Starfleet Division or Command. It's just one R&D facility among no doubt thousands, and the apparent CO of the outfit isn't any sort of a communications specialist, but a generic "command and conquer" Admiral Paris.
Why would Starfleet dedicate an entire division to Communications, when all its branches have their own communications setups anyway? The US armed forces don't have a Radar Command to handle all radar operations in a centralized manner, either. Or a Sensor Command or anything like that.
THe departments of a starship represent very low-level management, specific to a certain type of vehicle and mission. Starfleet itself would have to be structured around more generic themes.
Timo Saloniemi
i woould imagine Starfleet Tactical - at the least - is repsonsible for coming up with 'evasive pattern delta' or 'attack pattern omega' that captains are forever screaming at their helmsmen to use in 24C Trek.
No, it's not in the Starfleet charter. It uses an ambiguously phrased clause in the Starfleet charter as the excuse for its existence. That's not the same thing. The NRA uses the Second Amendment as the justification for its existence, but that doesn't mean that the NRA is a division of the United States government. With their lobbying power, they sometimes might as well be, but they aren't.
And it's missing the point to say that Section 31 is part of Starfleet's organizational structure. That structure is a hierarchy, divisions answering to higher divisions. Section 31 is answerable to no one. It doesn't report to Starfleet Intelligence, to Starfleet Command, to the Federation Council, to the President, to anybody. It can't be placed on a Starfleet organizational chart because it has no official links to any other part of Starfleet. It's a completely sub rosa organization with no accountability.
No. Sloan said that Section 31 was part of the "original Starfleet Charter," implying the existence of multiple Starfleet charters. This was confirmed when Section 31 was depicted as existin within the United Earth Starfleet. The Federation Starfleet is by definition a separate organization with a separate charter; there's no evidence that Section 31 is part of the Federation Starfleet Charter.
And even if it was in the charter -- that doesn't mean much. It establishes its existence, but if it operates completely outside of Starfleet, then it is not in any meaningful sense part of Starfleet. It could only be said to be part of Starfleet in the most legalistic, paper-centric sense -- a sense that completely defies functional reality.
Or so they claim. The Nazis said they needed to gas the Jews to defend the Fatherland. Stated intentions and real intentions do not always match.
Well, I'm ebarrased over my complete lack of understanding of how organizations are organized. My only solace is that it wasn't me who invoked Goodwin's Law. ; )
Hey, there's a reason the Nazis are so often invoked in political discussions: They're pretty much the most extreme example of everything that is wrong or dishonest in political organizations, so they are very useful illustrators.
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