Steve Rogers and Nick Fury in "CAPTAIN AMERICA: THE WINTER SOLDIER"

[Grendelsbayne]

I'm surprised that nobody complains about Steve going from Private to Captain in one big jump.

That was actually a big part of several discussions I've had about Kirk's promotion. Of course the clear difference is that an army Captain is a far cry from a Starship Captain, and Rogers is given a much longer backstory and service record to back up his promotion...

Steve was an agent/employee of SHIELD. Period. Nick Fury was his boss for at least two years. I am so sick and tired of these excuses for his arrogance. It's sickening. Just because Steve was the main character, did not give him the right to behave as if Fury was answerable to him.

No, Fury himself gave him that right when he chose to accept Captain America's obvious pre-existing personality quirks in order to gain him as an asset for SHIELD... Fury could also take that right away whenever he wanted and have Steve thrown out of the building. But he chose not to, and he is the boss.

He was not the director of SHIELD. Fury was. If it was that important that Steve behave as if Fury was his professional equal, he should have never joined SHIELD in the first place.

This is kind of the whole point of the movie. Although it's also partly that maybe SHIELD should never have existed in the first place.

And yeah . . . his behavior was ARROGANT.

Eh... Is it arrogant to treat a man in the exact same way he's always accepted you treating him before? This isn't the first time Steve demanded answers from Fury that he technically had no right to (What is Phase 2, anyone?). Fury hired him anyway, so he apparently appreciates that personality trait, or at least tolerates it. I suppose you could say it's a habitual arrogance that he feels the need to drag the truth into the light without considering the possibility that he doesn't always know what's best. But that is kind of a central piece of his characterization, so it's hardly surprising or worth getting upset over.

Wow. I never realized that so many people are upset over the idea that Steve Rogers had no business treating Nick Fury - his boss - like some damn minion or that he had to know everything that Fury knew.

Has this to do with race? Is the idea of a white Steve Rogers being automatically subservient to a black Nick Fury upsetting - especially since they are in a professional setting? Or is this something else? Because Steve is CAPTAIN AMERICA, it's okay for him to get away with behavior that other people would get their asses fired over? After all, Steve wasn't just helping SHIELD on his own. He was an employee of SHIELD at the time of "The Winter Soldier". But fandom's unwillingness to consider Steve's behavior in that movie troublesome really makes me wonder sometimes.

Behavior that will get you fired has never been universally condemned. All people everywhere look at the context first. Yelling at a boss for doing something wrong/illegal is generally admired, yelling at a boss for no particular reason generally looked down on. In this case, the context makes it perfectly clear why Steve is yelling, and it's a very logical, reasonable reason based on the concern for people's lives.

 

[Nerys Myk]

That was actually a big part of several discussions I've had about Kirk's promotion. Of course the clear difference is that an army Captain is a far cry from a Starship Captain, and Rogers is given a much longer backstory and service record to back up his promotion...

Doesn't he go directly from Private to Captain, with no ranks in between? Plus a jump from enlisted man to officer. In the film he's basically a USO act until he rescues the Howling Commandos. So not much a "backstory" or service record.

 

[Star Wolf]

Doesn't he go directly from Private to Captain, with no ranks in between? Plus a jump from enlisted man to officer. In the film he's basically a USO act until he rescues the Howling Commandos. So not much a "backstory" or service record.

No basically he went through SSR training camp and the closest real life equivalent that I can think of is going to the OSS spy school

 

[Venardhi]

I figured that his rank was honorary (but official) as part of his stage persona as "Captain America" (thanks to some political string pulling) and Steve basically just inherited it in practice because no one is going to bother demoting a war hero and PR wet dream over such trivialities.

The real question is did he ever collect his back pay for all that time in the ice? POW/MIA continue to get promotions and pay, so I'd think being frozen while saving the eastern seaboard should qualify as well. That's gotta be at least a few million he could throw towards a charity or scholarship.

 

[Grendelsbayne]

Doesn't he go directly from Private to Captain, with no ranks in between? Plus a jump from enlisted man to officer. In the film he's basically a USO act until he rescues the Howling Commandos. So not much a "backstory" or service record.

He completes an extensive training program with flying colors. (Kirk starts his training program late and ends it on academic probation). He proves his value running down the hydra spy and is then sidelined, but continues to serve in the uso position because he's willing to do anything he can to help. His original promotion is basically honorary because Captain America sounds better than Private America, and it also comes with essentially zero responsibility. Then he proves his value even more by single-handedly pulling off a major rescue mission that had been considered impossible for an entire unit and he is rewarded with more responsibility which is commensurate with what he's proven he can handle (leading ground missions to smack down Hydra units, under the direction of the general). Meanwhile Kirk, having put in a day of service time in the middle of a crisis, and having proved basically nothing except that he's intelligent enough to identify a trap right in front of his face and to get Spock to come up with a plan to save Earth for him, is promoted directly to the most independent, highest responsibility position Starfleet has.

Cap's background and service record isn't massive or even in line with real world expectations, but it's huge (and far more believable) compared to Kirk's.

 

[LJones41]

Behavior that will get you fired has never been universally condemned. All people everywhere look at the context first. Yelling at a boss for doing something wrong/illegal is generally admired, yelling at a boss for no particular reason generally looked down on. In this case, the context makes it perfectly clear why Steve is yelling, and it's a very logical, reasonable reason based on the concern for people's lives.

And when people do yell at their boss, they usually end up fired. If Steve had a problem with the mission, he should have requested to speak with Fury in the first place, express his displeasure in a memo, or report the matter to Fury's boss. Marching into Fury's office like he's Godalmighty was not the right way to do it.

When it comes to Nick Fury, Steve Rogers seemed to believe he has the right to openly judge and lecture over everything the former does. Moreso than any other character I can think of. I don't think I could have stand having someone like Steve working for me. And it's quite obvious that Steve cannot deal working for someone else. He is certainly not qualified to work for a clandestine agency or any organization with a command structure.

 

[DonIago]

1) Perhaps Steve and Fury have had the kind of relationship that you're taking issue with for a long time. Which is to say, this is status quo and neither of them would expect anything less. For instance, I have a longstanding relationship with my manager where she expects me to be frank if I think something she's proposing is a bad idea...and she doesn't want to wait until I have the time to write up a politely-worded memo on the subject.

2) I continue to question why you have such a problem with how Steve addresses Fury when Fury himself does not. Do you mean to suggest that Fury is a bad boss for putting up with Steve's BS, or that you somehow know better than him how to deal with Steve despite presumably having had less direct contact?

3) What would you have had Fury do? Fire Steve? Throw him in the stockade? And given the information Fury had that he wasn't sharing, which of your options would have served the greatest good better than how he proceeded?

 

[Star Wolf]

He completes an extensive training program with flying colors. (Kirk starts his training program late and ends it on academic probation). He proves his value running down the hydra spy and is then sidelined, but continues to serve in the uso position because he's willing to do anything he can to help. His original promotion is basically honorary because Captain America sounds better than Private America, and it also comes with essentially zero responsibility. Then he proves his value even more by single-handedly pulling off a major rescue mission that had been considered impossible for an entire unit and he is rewarded with more responsibility which is commensurate with what he's proven he can handle (leading ground missions to smack down Hydra units, under the direction of the general). Meanwhile Kirk, having put in a day of service time in the middle of a crisis, and having proved basically nothing except that he's intelligent enough to identify a trap right in front of his face and to get Spock to come up with a plan to save Earth for him, is promoted directly to the most independent, highest responsibility position Starfleet has.

Cap's background and service record isn't massive or even in line with real world expectations, but it's huge (and far more believable) compared to Kirk's.

I agree. If the wiki on battlefield promotions is correct then between WWI when brevet ranks were ended and Vietnam over 31,000 had battlefield commissions in the US. And that is not counting direct commissions like movie director John Ford being made a reserve Lieutenant Commander. That a Captain Rogers would have been included in that group seems reasonable even if you don't go with my theory that the SSR was more like the OSS with a SOE liaison in Agent Carter than the regular Army.

 

[Kirby]

I'm surprised that nobody complains about Steve going from Private to Captain in one big jump.

I assumed that he was promoted because he was basically a marketing tool for war bonds, and 'Captain America' sounds way cooler than 'Private America'.

 

[DonIago]

Although I admit I'd find "Private America" far more entertaining.

 

[Grendelsbayne]

And when people do yell at their boss, they usually end up fired. If Steve had a problem with the mission, he should have requested to speak with Fury in the first place, express his displeasure in a memo, or report the matter to Fury's boss. Marching into Fury's office like he's Godalmighty was not the right way to do it.

When it comes to Nick Fury, Steve Rogers seemed to believe he has the right to openly judge and lecture over everything the former does. Moreso than any other character I can think of. I don't think I could have stand having someone like Steve working for me. And it's quite obvious that Steve cannot deal working for someone else. He is certainly not qualified to work for a clandestine agency or any organization with a command structure.

What usually happens really isn't relevant. The boss in question has the final say. This particular boss clearly disagreed with your position.

 

[Venardhi]

And when people do yell at their boss, they usually end up fired.

When low-skill, easily replaced employees yell at their boss, they usually end up fired. Yelling at the manager when you're a fry cook or stocking shelves is probably going to get you fired. If you're a movie star or a hotshot software engineer or a goddamn beloved multi-generational superhero, the dynamic is entirely different.

 

[Nerys Myk]

He completes an extensive training program with flying colors. (Kirk starts his training program late and ends it on academic probation).

Late? Is there a specific time he needed to start? He actually completes a four year program in three years. And apparently holds the rank of Lieutenant. *

Cap's background and service record isn't massive or even in line with real world expectations, but it's huge (and far more believable) compared to Kirk's.

They both do the the same thing. Pull off a flashy stunt and save a bunch of people. Then they get rewarded.
What is Steve's service record when he get's his bars? Pretty much that one rescue. **

* I actually think Cadet to Captain is Star Trek 09's biggest flaws.
** I love Captain America. He's my favorite superhero.

 

[EnderAKH]

Yeah, I'm pretty sure when Jony Ive yelled at Steve Jobs, he didn't get fired.

 

[Star Wolf]

Late? Is there a specific time he needed to start? He actually completes a four year program in three years. And apparently holds the rank of Lieutenant. *

They both do the the same thing. Pull off a flashy stunt and save a bunch of people. Then they get rewarded.
What is Steve's service record when he get's his bars? Pretty much that one rescue. **

* I actually think Cadet to Captain is Star Trek 09's biggest flaws.
** I love Captain America. He's my favorite superhero.

And the other WWII junior officers once the ROTC classes had been utilized, basic training and Officer Candidate School often criticized especially by the Vietnam era as the 90 day wonder camp. I remember seeing Danger UXB on PBS a young Lieutenant Brian Ash sent to a bomb disposal unit didn't even know how to wear his uniform when sent to his company to take command of his section. Having seen actual combat against a spy when most others had never faced any kind of a fight before put Captain Rogers ahead of many junior and middle rank leaders going combat for the first time.

 

[Nerys Myk]

I loved Danger UXB. Great show.
Yeah, Rogers' one fight places him slightly ahead of a few people. But does that one fight earn him an O3 commission?

 

[Venardhi]

He already had it.

 

[Nerys Myk]

He already had it.

The little guy who went in the big chamber and got pumped full of chemicals was a O-3?

 

[Venardhi]

No, but the guy dancing on stage with showgirls and punching a dude dressed as Hitler was apparently.

 

[Nerys Myk]

No, but the guy dancing on stage with showgirls and punching a dude dressed as Hitler was apparently.

Was Rogers shown with rank insignia between the fight with the assassin and the POW rescue?