Steve Rogers and Nick Fury in "CAPTAIN AMERICA: THE WINTER SOLDIER"

[TREK_GOD_1]

Hate to use this really old line but here it goes........

Because it's just a movie.

Honestly, after all the ridiculous depth defying stunts that no human being could possibly perform or live through that were dramatized in that movie you choose THAT moment to say, "That could never happen?"

Well put. Anything about Rogers is the least of any problems one can find in the MCU.

 

[LJones41]

Honestly, after all the ridiculous depth defying stunts that no human being could possibly perform or live through that were dramatized in that movie you choose THAT moment to say, "That could never happen?"

This is your response? Really? All I wanted to do is discuss characterization . . . especially the oddly written relationship between Steve Rogers and Nick Fury and you respond with comments about "ridiculous depth defying stunts". I didn't realize that many of you didn't want to discuss Steve's attitude toward Fury. Is this always going to be the case . . . every time I or someone else is a little critical about a movie that is wildly popular? So that many can pretend there is nothing wrong?

 

[Venardhi]

Steve isn't an employee, he's an asset. He isn't there because he signed an enlistment or to collect a check, but because he wants to put his exceptional abilities towards something he believes in. If he no longer believes in that mission, there is no reason to respect the chain of authority. He can walk at any time, but they need him. His "arrogance" in that situation is entirely deserved and appropriate.

 

[Sci]

This is the same guy who first came to the SSR's attention because he kept trying to enlist under false names. Who then first established himself as a national hero by illegally traveling behind enemy lines to mount a one-man rescue mission for Allied POWs held at a Nazi/Hydra base. Who then cemented his status as an international legend by doing an end-run around Colonel Phillips and recruiting his own team of Howling Commandos.

I didn't agree with the interpretation of Steve as having as high a degree of individualism and anti-institutionalism as he displayed in Captain America: Civil War, but it is pretty clear from his first appearance in Captain America: The First Avenger that Steve Rogers has always been willing to defy his superiors if he believes that his cause is justified. So, no, I can't say I' the least bit surprised or offended that he would barge in on Director Fury in Captain America: The Winter Soldier. And I think it is clear that Director Fury knows this about Cap, since he is willing to reason with him.

And no, Steve is not just some guy from the 40s with super-soldier serum. He is the greatest American hero of the 20th Century who almost single-handedly prevented the greatest act of international mass murder in history by stopping the Red Skull on the Valkyire. He is known and beloved to millions. He is to the MCU what Superman would have been if Superman had been a real person who had actually fought and died in World War II. He is, to these people, the living embodiment of Mom, Baseball, Apple Pie, and the Flag.

Also -- I think it is probably not wholly accurate to call SHIELD a spy agency. I would be more inclined to call it an international paramilitary.

 

[LJones41]

Steve isn't an employee, he's an asset. He isn't there because he signed an enlistment or to collect a check, but because he wants to put his exceptional abilities towards something he believes in. If he no longer believes in that mission, there is no reason to respect the chain of authority. He can walk at any time, but they need him. His "arrogance" in that situation is entirely deserved and appropriate.

Steve was an agent/employee of SHIELD. Period. Nick Fury was his boss for at least two years. I am so sick and tired of these excuses for his arrogance. It's sickening. Just because Steve was the main character, did not give him the right to behave as if Fury was answerable to him. He was not the director of SHIELD. Fury was. If it was that important that Steve behave as if Fury was his professional equal, he should have never joined SHIELD in the first place.

And yeah . . . his behavior was ARROGANT.

And no, Steve is not just some guy from the 40s with super-soldier serum. He is the greatest American hero of the 20th Century who almost single-handedly prevented the greatest act of international mass murder in history by stopping the Red Skull on the Valkyir

Blah, blah, blah, blah, blah . . . blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. That doesn't mean crap. Not as long as Steve Rogers was an employee of SHIELD.

 

[Kemaiku]

Blah, blah, blah, blah, blah . . . blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. That doesn't mean crap.

How is this contributing in any way?

 

[Rowan Sjet]

Steve is well within his right to yell at Fury and Fury was well within his rights to fire Steve for doing so, but chose not to.

It's not arrogant to disagree with your superiors, in fact in some instances it's highly encouraged.

 

[theenglish]

For me it was more showing how close Steve and Nick had become. That scene quickly establishes that their relationship goes beyond the professional and they have some kind of bond beyond that. Keep in mind this is after the Avengers movie and Cap is as much a super-hero as he is an Agent of SHIELD.

 

[DonIago]

So Steve was arrogant and barged into Fury's office. Would it have been better if Fury had fired him? I mean, if you want to criticize Steve, fine, but what would you have liked to have seen at that point?

 

[Sci]

Steve was an agent/employee of SHIELD. Period.

Actually, do we know that Steve was a SHIELD agent? Isn't it just as possible that he was technically classified as a "consultant," the same title given to Tony Stark and to Skye in Season One of Agents of SHIELD?

Just because Steve was the main character, did not give him the right to behave as if Fury was answerable to him.

No, but the fact that Fury endangered Steve, his teammates, and the hostages does.

And yeah . . . his behavior was ARROGANT.

And endangering those hostages wasn't?

And no, Steve is not just some guy from the 40s with super-soldier serum. He is the greatest American hero of the 20th Century who almost single-handedly prevented the greatest act of international mass murder in history by stopping the Red Skull on the Valkyir

Blah, blah, blah, blah, blah . . . blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. That doesn't mean crap. Not as long as Steve Rogers was an employee of SHIELD.

Single-handedly preventing millions of deaths and being the most famous hero of World War II is not "blah blah blah" that means crap.

I mean, seriously, this would be the equivalent of the head of SpaceX getting upset that Neil Armstrong yelled at him. Like, even if Neil Armstrong is technically an employee, he's Neil Armstrong. Fuck whoever he's yelling at.

And, again, do we know that Steve was actually a SHIELD agent and not a SHIELD consultant? Hell, for all we know, given that he's still referred to as "Captain Rogers," maybe his United States Army commission was re-activated, and he's technically still a United States Army captain who has just been seconded to SHIELD.

 

[Reverend]

Actually, do we know that Steve was a SHIELD agent? Isn't it just as possible that he was technically classified as a "consultant," the same title given to Tony Stark and to Skye in Season One of Agents of SHIELD?

Pretty certain he specifically said he joined SHIELD.

 

[Sci]

Pretty certain he specifically said he joined SHIELD.

That's arguably an ambiguous phrase. Didn't Skye refer to herself as "joining" SHIELD at the start of Agents of SHIELD even though she didn't actually become an agent until just before the Hydra Uprising?

 

[Reverend]

That's arguably an ambiguous phrase. Didn't Skye refer to herself as "joining" SHIELD at the start of Agents of SHIELD even though she didn't actually become an agent until just before the Hydra Uprising?

Joining with the intent of becoming an agent is pretty much the same thing.

As if him explicitly stating it weren't enough, you can tell from the way he fought in the opening sequence that he'd had some SHIELD martial arts training, was wearing a SHIELD version of his uniform, had level 8 clearance, was given operational control of a specialist ops team plus Romanov and reported directly to Fury. But sure, you're right he was totally just a consultant.

 

[Kemaiku]

I'm fairly sure Steve occupied a position unique to him, granted by SHIELD as a field operative/consultant/"asset"

The organisation seems to have a lot of people working for it that don't actually have an official title, who work for and assist SHIELD and have something made up on the books to cover it. Reformed killers, genetic clones, Inhumans, cyborgs etc

Steve personifies a lot of what Fury and Coulson wanted SHIELD to stand for, giving him wiggle room to go on the missions he wanted to and overlooking other duties full agents would need to fulfill, being a walking propaganda machine for them.

Fury hid a lot of these things from Steve partly as it wasn't necessary for him to know, partly protecting him from SHIELD's darker side. He needed him to keep believing in what he was fighting for, being the motivation and moral backbone of the agency.

So really, they just paid him, he turned up and punched bad guys all day. I doubt they even invented a title at all, giving him what security clearance he needed to areas he was allowed to operate from.

 

[Sci]

Joining with the intent of becoming an agent is pretty much the same thing.

As if him explicitly stating it weren't enough, you can tell from the way he fought in the opening sequence that he'd had some SHIELD martial arts training, was wearing a SHIELD version of his uniform, had level 8 clearance, was given operational control of a specialist ops team plus Romanov and reported directly to Fury. But sure, you're right he was totally just a consultant.

Not saying he definitely was a consultant, either. But Tony was pretty much doing SHIELD's bidding in The Avengers while still just being a "consultant." So I'm just saying, bear in mind the possibility that Steve wasn't himself technically an agent.

 

[LJones41]

Steve eventually became an official S.H.I.E.L.D. agent after the events of "The Avengers". So, by the beginning of "The Winter Soldier", Nick Fury was his boss. If you don't believe me, look up any of the official MCU sites. From the MCU Wiki site:

"Steve Rogers moved to Washington, D.C., trying to live like a normal person and adjust to the 21st century. However, he was soon recalled to join S.H.I.E.L.D. in making the world a safer place. After joining the agency, Rogers was trained in parkour and many forms of martial arts to make him even more effective in the field."

Between the end of "The Avengers" and the end of "The Winter Soldier", Steve Rogers was a S.H.I.E.L.D. agent and Nick Fury was his boss.

Fury hid a lot of these things from Steve partly as it wasn't necessary for him to know, partly protecting him from SHIELD's darker side. He needed him to keep believing in what he was fighting for, being the motivation and moral backbone of the agency.

Fury hid a lot of stuff from Steve, because the latter did not have the authority to know everything that the former did. Fury was the Director of SHIELD, a spymaster and Steve's boss. There is no need to create some excuse on why Fury never told Steve everything. Fury treated Steve to information on a need to know basis, just as he had treated his other agents. The problem with Steve was that he thought he had the right to know everything that Fury did. And he had expected Fury not to keep any secrets. Which revealed not only his naivety, but also his arrogance.

 

[DonIago]

So Steve is arrogant? What's your point here? Was Fury supposed to give him a written warning? Throw him in jail? Fire him?

 

[Xerxes82]

Fury hid a lot of stuff from Steve, because the latter did not have the authority to know everything that the former did. Fury was the Director of SHIELD, a spymaster and Steve's boss. There is no need to create some excuse on why Fury never told Steve everything. Fury treated Steve to information on a need to know basis, just as he had treated his other agents. The problem with Steve was that he thought he had the right to know everything that Fury did. And he had expected Fury not to keep any secrets. Which revealed not only his naivety, but also his arrogance.

It's not that Steve thought he had a right to know everything Fury did. That's bonkers. It's that Steve thought he could better protect the lives of everyone involved in the mission if he'd known the whole story. Fun fact, he's right. That doesn't make what Fury did wrong, however. Fury has reasons, he has schemes, he has secrets. Steve doesn't work that way. Steve and SHIELD are incompatible, which is thematically critical to the movie. Steve is about teamwork, about the greater whole doing good work to keep people safe. He fundamentally wants to be part of a team built on trust and aimed at helping people. He joins SHIELD because it's the closest he thinks he can get to that.

He's wrong. Which is great for the average joes of the MCU, because Steve being incompatible with SHIELD saves the entire world. SHIELD is literally a shadowy cabal of secrets within secrets hiding behind other people's secrets, and with it's own agenda outside it's official mandate. If nobody questions, HYDRA wins. If good people do nothing when they see something awry, evil prospers. People have an obligation to speak up when they see things that are wrong, even to voices of power and authority. Steve is that voice in Winter Soldier.

I think you're coming at this from an interesting standpoint, assuming that no junior officer or employee has the right, or even the moral necessity to confront their boss/employer/commander when the situation calls for it. That isn't how the world works. Yes, Fury could absolutely have punished Steve for the outburst. He could have fired him, demoted him, or probably any other number of punishments. Steve gets off the hook because of his fame, his legend, and the fact that yes, at that moment, Fury knows Steve is right. If it was about protecting people, Steve is 100% correct. Of course, the mission had nothing to do with protecting people, and that's what Steve has figured out and is pissed about. It's the fundamental, nuts and bolts incompatibility between the man Steve Rogers is, and what SHIELD is. (Even setting aside that SHIELD is merely a HYDRA front.)

Speaking frankly, if this scene is a display of arrogance, I hope there are a lot of arrogant people out there. Speaking out, challenging authority when it crosses the lines, these things are difficult, and frequently dangerous. But necessary and good.

 

[Nerys Myk]

So Steve is arrogant? What's your point here? Was Fury supposed to give him a written warning? Throw him in jail? Fire him?

Probably watch a video in HR.

 

[Sci]

Steve eventually became an official S.H.I.E.L.D. agent after the events of "The Avengers". So, by the beginning of "The Winter Soldier", Nick Fury was his boss.

And Steve has always defied his bosses when he felt they were wrong. Nothing new there.

If you don't believe me, look up any of the official MCU sites. From the MCU Wiki site:

Derivative works are not binding on the works upon which they are based. I'm not saying he wasn't an agent of SHIELD; I'm saying that Captain America: The Winter Soldier and other MCU films leave open an alternate possibility.

Between the end of "The Avengers" and the end of "The Winter Soldier", Steve Rogers was a S.H.I.E.L.D. agent and Nick Fury was his boss.

Then Director Fury can throw Steve into the SHIELD stockade.

The problem with Steve was that he thought he had the right to know everything that Fury did. And he had expected Fury not to keep any secrets. Which revealed not only his naivety, but also his arrogance.

Steve doesn't believe in secrets and lies as a way of life. You can give the "Fury knows best; trust Fury" lecture until the cows come home, but the simple fact is that if Steve wasn't the type of guy who confront his bosses when he thinks they have abused their authority, Hydra would have taken over.