STC Ep. 6: "Come Not Between The Dragons" grading and discussion....(possible spoilers)

[Warped9]

As someone who's not a Picard fan, I can say STC's Kirk is a long, long, long way from reminding me of Picard.

I'm inclined to agree. It isn't that STC's Kirk is made to behave like Picard, but rather the writing echoes things that were written for Picard.

"The White Iris" is not a TOS story. The characters in TOS could be introspective--that runs throughout TOS--but no stories of that era picked over the scabs of the chracter's souls in the way stories did in TNG and later series.

"The Enemy Within" was a thumbnail study of the duality of a person's character. The basic good and bad aspects everyone has to varying degrees. It had nothing to do Kirk's emotional challenges beyond what he had to deal with in that specific situation.

"Obsession" wasn't a study of Kirk being consumed by guilt and thus being unable to function. It was a question of whether he was greater than the burden he carried with him. One could say the same thing about "The Conscience Of The King."

And throughout the series the characters had moments when they questioned whether they were doing the right thing.

But "The White Iris" is all aboit proving Kirk had genuine feelings for certain women in his past and proving he wasn't a cad and felt genuine guilt and remorse over their deaths. That is the entire story to reconcile the character with more contemporary perspectives. But it is not a story the TOS writers would have written back in 1966-69 or 1969-70. They would have not seen the need to "fix" the character.

And "The White Iris" flies in the face of STC's stated intent to pick up where TOS left off as if it were still 1969. The story revisits characters the TOS writers wouldn't have bothered with and the story itself is not the kind of thing they would have thought of producing. But "The White Iris" is ideal fodder for TNG where more than once they dealt with Picard being heavily introspective.

 

[Warped9]

So in an alternate world where STC never made the claim but where the episodes produced are completely identical to the ones made in our world you would potentially like them better? That's the thing I don't understand.

If they never stated their specific intent they would automatically get more leeway in terms of certain criticisms. Under that scenario I could still think STC is closer to being like TOS than anything else I've seen. Even with their stated claim I feel I can still say that.

But you can't state an intent and then expect no one to say anything of criticism when you subsequently ignore your publicly stated objective.

 

[BoredShipCapt'n]

The odd thing is that the three women in White Iris, the ones who died because of Kirk, are the very ones we knew he hadn't behaved caddishly toward. The Deelas, the Shahnas, the Drusillas of the galaxy are the ones that raise some eyebrows today.

 

[Warped9]

The odd thing is that the three women in White Iris, the ones who died because of Kirk, are the very ones we knew he hadn't behaved caddishly toward. The Deelas, the Shahnas, the Drusillas of the galaxy are the ones that raise some eyebrows today.

Excellent point.

Did Kirk kill Edith Keeler? Interesting question. Technically and theoretically he could have saved her, but instead he stopped himself from acting. He allowed her to die. He was in an impossible situation that Spock summarized perfectly: "Save her, as your heart tells you do to, and millions will die who did not die before." As far as Kirk was concerned Edith Keeler had died centuries before he was born. In the records Spock retrieved through his tricorder there is no mention of Kirk, Spock and McCoy's presence when she died in a traffic accident. As far as they know they have simply maintained what was supposed to have happened. But what if they had always been part of Edith Keeler's death even though they are not mentioned in the historical records just as the Enterprise was supposedly always part of the suborbital weapon incident in 1968?

Did Kirk cause Miramanee's death? Of course not. She died at the hands of her ignorant fellows and her refusal to leave Kirk's side. Her death was a tragic consequence of ignorance (and fear) on the side of the natives and Kirk's ignorance in not knowing how to gain access to the obelisk.

Did Kirk cause the death of Rayna? Can you kill an android? Depends on your perspective of whether an android is actually alive--a question explored in TNG's "Measure Of A Man." We also know Kirk was manipulated by Flint to elicit certain reactions in Rayna. The circumstances for Rayna's "death" were put in motion by Flint and they had a tragic outcome.

TOS Kirk was a man of decisiveness and being able to wrestle and surmount his own feelings and fallibilities. It's an integral part of what made Kirk the leader he was. We know he felt remorse for those who died under his command, people who might have died as a direct consequence of decisions he had to make. As such there is no doubt he felt remorse and a measure of guilt for the death of those he cared for. But we also know Kirk is a man of intelligence and rationality such that he would be highly unlikely to be incapacitated by overwhelming guilt and remorse.

 

[STEPhon IT]

(I'm speaking as a STC fan who really liked their first three episodes but thought the next two (especially "The White Iris") were a really big step down.)

So what's the big deal if STC is being more TNG-y (or whatever) than they claimed they were trying to be? Why should the episodes relative to their claim affect how much you like (or don't) the episodes?

I totally get not liking them if you don't like TNG-y things in a TOS environment and perceive STC putting TNG-y things there. (FWIW, TNG is one of my least favorite Trek incarnations).

But good or bad the episodes exist as their own things. Like 'em, great! Don't like 'em, also great! Horses for courses, IDIC, and all that. But why care about what STC said their mission statement was re: episodes?

It's what Vic stated every time he had a chance, and it's not true from what I'd seen. I'm thinking it's a clever way to get funding for his projects. If it works, I'm glad he has the chance to tell the Star Trek stories he wanted to tell, but they're not very good stories IMO.

I don't like or dislike STC; for me, it is what it is. I appreciate what work the production has done and that's it. I thought Warped9 invited nitpicking, and that's all I'm doing. I don't think anyone, so far, has said they hated it. For me, I was surprised anyone would have an expectation for whatever they do since none of it blends well with Star Trek. The stories told, I get nothing out of them, the performances feel mimicky and the Fx are blah, but it's a fanfilm. Nothing else.
"The Tressaurian Intersection" was mindblowing to me bc... I was expecting the regular fan-stuff like "Savage Empire" and the entire "Phase II or New Voyages or whatever they're calling themselves this week" run. It was a vast improvement and didn't feel fannish; they went that extra step to make their episode as if... it was in the world of Kirk and Spock. Dialogue, themes, the approach didn't stick out like a sore thumb. I didn't watch their episode saying, "Oh yeah, I remember that." "Ooooh, look what they've done." There isn't any moments like that from TTI, where its constant in STC and NV/ "P2 or WETCTTW", they told the story they wanted to tell and off to another adventure.
There was a lot of production design done on TTI where I never discovered until the making of doc I saw. It made me appreciate more of the work done b/c the creative stuff was not drawing attention to itself but I was so immerse in the adventure the sets looked accurate to me. It felt right. So much so I've complimented the work done from the creative people who did it.
TTI's work was the mission statement and not some self-promoting hype from Vic... which I no longer take seriously.

 

[Warped9]

There seems to be a belief with some fans that you have to accept something wholeheartedly to enjoy it and if you're critical then you don't like it.

I enjoy the hell out of STC. That doesn't preclude my observation of mistakes and things I believe they could have done better. And I can say exactly the same thing about Star Trek TOS, my all time favourite series.

 

[BoredShipCapt'n]

There seems to be a belief with some fans that you have to accept something wholeheartedly to enjoy it and if you're critical then you don't like it.

I enjoy the hell out of STC. That doesn't preclude my observation of mistakes and things I believe they could have done better. And I can say exactly the same thing about Star Trek TOS, my all time favourite series.

Exactly. Sometimes I feel like the scientist in that Hawthorne story whose wife's beauty was absolutely perfect except for a birthmark on her face, so he became obsessed with getting rid of the birthmark.

 

[Warped9]

The funny thing is the criticisms I have of STC are not huge gaping failings. They are generally small things that could be fixed with the stroke of red ink in a rewrite.

Does mentioning the Xindi add anything to the story? No, it detracts from that TOS feeling you say you want. Scratch it.

Does mentioning the class of Andorian cruisers help the story? No, it reminds people you're not really pretending it's 1969 again. Scratch it.

Does making Kirk indecisive help the story? No, it's an excuse to make him look more inclusive of the other characters and make him more like Picard. Why? Fans of TOS want to see Kirk. If they wanted to see Picard they'd watch TNG episodes. Rewrite.

Is it really necessary to have a ship's Counselor (I could ask the same thing about TNG)? No, unless you really want to connect to TNG and tell your viewers you're not really pretending it's 1969 again. Scratch it. If you want to keep the character then call her the ship's psychiatrist.

Is it really necessary to make Kirk emotionally and mentally incapacitated? Only if you think the character needs to be fixed in some way. Is this a story they actually would have done in 1969? No? Then go back and think of another story or make some other character an emotional wreck. Rewrite.

Is the story better served by having the reveal this soon? No, put the reveal nearer to the end. Rewrite.

Is the story better served by dragging out this fourth act? No, tighten it up. Rewrite.

 

[mos6507]

TTI's work was the mission statement and not some self-promoting hype from Vic... which I no longer take seriously.

I think you're overplaying this into some sort of "betrayal" of a promise or nothing but an ego trip for Vic. You'd be hard-pressed to find anyone, including crowdfunding donors, who feel that STC somehow let them down.

Every fan-film production has its pros and cons to it. Exeter's was the simple fact that TTI was unfinished for years and only barely got finished in the end whereas STC is the smoothest running production that has been able to pump out episodes at a steady clip. There's something to be said for Vic's skills as a producer in being able to manage everything and get stuff done.

 

[YJAGG]

Exactly. Sometimes I feel like the scientist in that Hawthorne story whose wife's beauty was absolutely perfect except for a birthmark on her face, so he became obsessed with getting rid of the birthmark.

I think it is normal for us to nitpick more for something made by fans, I can cut a professional writer on TOS, (TNG etc) for not knowing the universe so deeply as they were pitching a story for the In-Laws or Big Valley last week and Bonaza or Lost In Space the next. I mean how many times has the canon contradicted itself on screen?

 

[Zaminhon]

I think it is normal for us to nitpick more for something made by fans, I can cut a professional writer on TOS, (TNG etc) for not knowing the universe so deeply as they were pitching a story for the In-Laws or Big Valley last week and Bonaza or Lost In Space the next. I mean how many times has the canon contradicted itself on screen?

I can't cut much slack for professional writers or directors who don't do their homework and don't know the material. I can give fan films a wider berth since typically they are not professionals and don't have the budgets to carry them to a professional level. I believe that STC most closely approaches that professional level consistently, but even so, the time and budget restraints still show.

eta:

By "writers", I'm also talking about the producers and editors and those responsible for adapting the story into a screenplay. They should be "in the know" about their own material, and that's where I don't give much slack. On the other hand, back in the day, I doubt they had much quality control or a detailed vision, given their schedule. There were basically filling in the details as they went along, from space fleet to star fleet.

 

[STEPhon IT]

I think you're overplaying this into some sort of "betrayal" of a promise or nothing but an ego trip for Vic. You'd be hard-pressed to find anyone, including crowdfunding donors, who feel that STC somehow let them down.

Every fan-film production has its pros and cons to it. Exeter's was the simple fact that TTI was unfinished for years and only barely got finished in the end whereas STC is the smoothest running production that has been able to pump out episodes at a steady clip. There's something to be said for Vic's skills as a producer in being able to manage everything and get stuff done.

Absolutely not, I don't feel betrayed at all, I'm not a fan of his work, but I don't hate it. What's with some members who cherry picks my words and then makes wild assumptions???

 

[STEPhon IT]

The funny thing is the criticisms I have of STC are not huge gaping failings. They are generally small things that could be fixed with the stroke of red ink in a rewrite.

Does mentioning the Xindi add anything to the story? No, it detracts from that TOS feeling you say you want. Scratch it.

Does mentioning the class of Andorian cruisers help the story? No...

It's Vic's Star Trek but it will never be Gene Coon's Star Trek; and that's fine. It is what it is. This is a Star Trek which accepts everything from Rick Berman Productions and the retcons done throughout the decade. They are fans who feel comfortable with these rewritings of history and sh*tting on the creative people's work from the 60's because they didn't know what we know today.

I have no investment in those things but I don't mind watching them; admiring the hard work was done from the production.

 

[STEPhon IT]

I can't cut much slack for professional writers or directors who don't do their homework and don't know the material. I can give fan films a wider berth since typically they are not professionals and don't have the budgets to carry them to a professional level. I believe that STC most closely approaches that professional level consistently, but even so, the time and budget restraints still show.

I will give Vic all the slack possible bc it's a fan film and it's his Star Trek. Nothing wrong with it, as his fantasy of Star Trek. It's a dream I would love to do myself. I'm happy he has the opportunity to do it and share his fantasy with me. Like a kid playing with Star Wars action figures and conjuring up stories that don't make any sense. That's what I see, and it's fun.

 

[Warped9]

It's Vic's Star Trek but it will never be Gene Coon's Star Trek; and that's fine. It is what it is. This is a Star Trek which excepts everything from Rick Berman Productions and the retcons done throughout the decade. They are fans who feel comfortable with these rewritings of history and sh*tting on the creative people's work from the 60's because they didn't know what we know today.

I have no investment in those things but I don't mind watching them; admiring the hard work was done from the production.

It's a matter of interpretation. It's possible Vic feels that not overtly acknowledging post TOS productions could be taken as somehow leaving a percentage of fans feeling excluded. But then they wouldn't likely like TOS because it (obviously) makes zero reference to post TOS productions.

And some folks feel a compulsion to connect-the-dots.


In regard to Ep. 6 I could see no obvious connecting of the dots to post TOS works. There is a bit of something, but it's quite light and doesn't really call attention to itself given it is something that could have happened in a hypothetical fourth season.

The only TNG like thing in this episode is that it feels somewhat more like an ensemble in giving secondary characters something more to do. Some of the writing in the latter part of the episode also feels more TNG like.

 

[Romdoll]

An interesting episode!

 

[STEPhon IT]

In regard to Ep. 6 I could see no obvious connecting of the dots to post TOS works. There is a bit of something, but it's quite light and doesn't really call attention to itself given it is something that could have happened in a hypothetical fourth season.

It doesn't matter. It's yours and Vic's hypothetical fourth season of something could've happened. And it's okay, they're fanfilms.

 

[YJAGG]

I will give Vic all the slack possible bc it's a fan film and it's his Star Trek. Nothing wrong with it, as his fantasy of Star Trek. It's a dream I would love to do myself. I'm happy he has the opportunity to do it and share his fantasy with me. Like a kid playing with Star Wars action figures and conjuring up stories that don't make any sense. That's what I see, and it's fun.

I feel the same way in 2017 when I am in Anaheim for a trade show grab your Trek pals meet me at Vasques Rock in a costumes and I'll bring my cameras

It's a matter of interpretation. It's possible Vic feels that not overtly acknowledging post TOS productions could be taken as somehow leaving a percentage of fans feeling excluded. But then they wouldn't likely like TOS because it (obviously) makes zero reference to post TOS productions.

Who knows but you will NEVER make everyone happy

And some folks feel a compulsion to connect-the-dots.

that is human nature i believe, but both NV and STC sometime line up the dots

In regard to Ep. 6 I could see no obvious connecting of the dots to post TOS works. There is a bit of something, but it's quite light and doesn't really call attention to itself given it is something that could have happened in a hypothetical fourth season.

The only TNG like thing in this episode is that it feels somewhat more like an ensemble in giving secondary characters something more to do. Some of the writing in the latter part of the episode also feels more TNG like.

I will reply to that in June,and again I enjoy STC, not chomping at the bit to see it but I am sure I will enjoy it.

To be honest if I can make a wish list, imagine that Shatner went to his dad's funeral or had an appendectomy, or got a dream role in a movie and needed to take an episode or two off what would a lower decks episode look like. The way TNG era would focus on a different character from time to time, a McCoy and Uhura trapped on a world where whites are the minority, without much help from the Enterprise. Or Sulu doing some work for Star Fleet Intelligence and getting an operative out of an Orion slave trade world.

With the popularity of the other characters I think that would be of been the next phase of trek in the 70's, maybe 3 or 4 such stories a season

 

[Warped9]

What decades of wishful thinking has given us is the idea TOS was an ensemble. But, in fact, it wasn't.

Having said that I don't have a problem with seeing a bit more of the secondary characters. Oddly, though, we're not seeing much more of Uhura, Sulu and Chekov than we did in TOS. We are seeing more of McKennah and Smith who weren't even there during TOS.

 

[Astra]

I liked Gigi Edgley's portrayal. I watched it at Fedcon together with other people and while the room could have been fuller it still was a great atmosphere. The episode had funny moments and there was laughter in the room, and at other times you could have heard a pin drop as it was so emotional and engaging.

It reminded me of one of my favorite TOS episodes in a way. I think it is very classical. Before it started, Vic also told us how the idea for the episode was conceived and how the guest character got invented, but I'm sure that will come out yet so I don't want to spoil it. He then sat down to watch it together with us, and even though he must have seen it quite a few times already, you could still see he was moved when he came back to the stage afterwards.

I'm sorry to say that the famous redshirt from the trailer did not get any reactions at all. I guess he is not very well known in Germany.

My friends and I agreed that Todd Haberkorn had some very good Spock scenes and there were also some great and funny Bones and Scotty scenes. I heard someone comment on Bones' rug - I really don't see such things and have no idea how it was any different from previous episodes.

I did hold my breath quite a few times especially through the action. It was all rather intense. I did not mind it being a bottle show, they put a lot of work into those sets so lets make the most out of them while we can.