State-run health care

[TheLonelySquire]

The fact that you can't differentiate between real reform (which would help this child) and a power grab designed to limit our freedoms is very telling. But to each his own.

It is true that the current proposals in the US Congress don't go nearly far enough, so in a way I guess it's not "real" reform. But it's better than nothing.

I'd also like to know how it's "a power grab designed to limit our freedoms". And don't repeat the so-often-refuted lies about rationing, or being forced to change plans or doctors.



Marian

Hey, you can choose to drink the liberal kool-aid all you want. It is what it is.

 

[Guartho]

"Blessed are the poor..."

"Hey there Jesus, watch that. I'm not paying for their lazy asses to have basic health care."

Tell me where in that passage does it say to tax from the rich and give it to the poor?

I'm not going to bother with that passage because I don't have to. The rest of the second passage I posted is very clear about the Godliness of paying taxes and doing what Congress and the president tell you to.

This is also why you pay taxes, for the authorities are God's servants, who give their full time to governing. 7Give everyone what you owe him: If you owe taxes, pay taxes; if revenue, then revenue; if respect, then respect; if honor, then honor.

Seems pretty clear that if the feds say pay taxes for universal health care then do it because God put them there to tell you to do that.

Also I'll ask you: What money did you send to help that boy?

Why are you asking me that? I have posted nothing about that boy and I've also posted that I can barely afford health insurance premiums myself. It makes no sense for you to ask me that.

Also I'll ask you: How much money have you sent to Santa Clause?

 

[Warped9]

And giving people health insurance isn't "enriching" them.

Giving someone something when they can provide for themselves is indeed enriching them.

The whole point of a developing, evolving and hopefully advancing society is to provide people with things they never had before and to make their lives better.

And the main point of UHC is to provide access to something many cannot obtain otherwise.

I think part of what is really going on here is that some feel that just because they can make things work to their benefit then there's no reason others cannot as well. But the reality is not everyone's circumstances are the same and different people must deal with different situations. If you have a decent job and make good money and can afford the things you need then good for you. But there are many people who are not in your situation through no fault of their own. You're saying that their situation is wholly their fault and too goddamned bad for them.

 

[Guartho]

Um, the vast majority of people not covered are those that pay little or no taxes. The rest of us generally want reform, but not ANOTHER government trainwreck.

Do you have verifiable numbers for that vast majority or are you just making stuff up again?

 

[Kira's Mom]

And giving people health insurance isn't "enriching" them.

Giving someone something when they can provide for themselves is indeed enriching them.

The whole point of a developing, evolving and hopefully advancing society is to provide people with things they never had before and to make their lives better.

And the main point of UHC is to provide access to something many cannot obtain otherwise.

I think part of what is really going on here is that some feel that just because they can make things work to their benefit then there's no reason others cannot as well. But the reality is not everyone's circumstances are the same and different people must deal with different situations. If you have a decent job and make good money and can afford the things you need then good for you. But there are many people who are not in your situation through no fault of their own. You're saying that their situation is wholly their fault and too goddamned bad for them.

You hit the nail on the head. It's "I've got mine, fuck the rest of you."

 

[Thespeckledkiwi]

It WOULD be free to those able-bodied people who, based on their income, cannot afford it. That is not right.

Not free. It would be paid for by their tax dollars. And the system would be one that would be answerable to those same taxpayers, not shareholders who are only motivated by profit margins.

Canadian here. I, nor any of my family members (5 who've had cancer and survived including my parents) have EVER had to wait for any surgery. Never.

It totally blows my mind that there is opposition to Universal Health Care in America. Blows my mind.

Rhetoric. The whole "you'll have to wait MONTHS for a life saving procedure!!!" line leaves out that the months long wait will be for non essential elective procedures as Miss Chicken pointed out earlier in the thread.

Um, the vast majority of people not covered are those that pay little or no taxes. The rest of us generally want reform, but not ANOTHER government trainwreck.

Wait what?

The vast majority of people not covered are getting butt fucked by the corporate pigs the Republicans were covering for 8 years. And many of them are children, so yes maybe they don't pay taxes but their parents pay taxes.

We need reform because no private insurer is going to do what a government can do and that is break up a monopoly.

 

[Guartho]

Ok, I realize it's only been a little over half an hour and he could have coincidentally signed-off for a real life break, but hey, I've been waiting a long time to post this thing.

 

[Crusher Disciple]

Um, the vast majority of people not covered are those that pay little or no taxes. The rest of us generally want reform, but not ANOTHER government trainwreck.

Well, as a government employee who sees the fuckery that government is capable on the inside, you won't get an argument from me that a govt program wouldn't be a trainwreck. It's just much easier to hold a govt entity accountable than a private one.

Government run healtcare is the lesser of two evils as far as I'm concerned. I'm still trying to dig my agency out from the privatization jnightmare we were forced into about 4 years ago. We've been crippled by selling out to IBM ever since.

But perhaps I've said too much.

 

[Garak]

"One can get non-elective surgery done much quicker at private hospital whereas those relying on Medicare usually have a wait for non-urgent surgery."

Well, that answers rhetoric about people supposedly languishing on waiting lists for months having to wait for a procedure.

Canadian here. I, nor any of my family members (5 who've had cancer and survived including my parents) have EVER had to wait for any surgery. Never.

It totally blows my mind that there is opposition to Universal Health Care in America. Blows my mind.

Ditto, my fellow Canadian, ditto.

I can understand the argument of letting the gov't run a program when gov't has a history of screwing things up, but if you don't try how will you ever know? If there is potentially a better option that protects all your citizens, why not give it a try?

A productive and prosperous country is a healthy country. Seems these days, the USA needs all the help it can get.

 

[Guartho]

It's just much easier to hold a govt entity accountable than a private one.

Ding ding ding. This is one of the key points I finally had to realize before getting off of the fence.

 

[Crash]

I can understand the argument of letting the gov't run a program when gov't has a history of screwing things up, but if you don't try how will you ever know? If there is potentially a better option that protects all your citizens, why not give it a try?

We here in America think we have more common sense and are better with money than the federal government despite having, on average, eight grand in credit card debt and a record rate of foreclosure that helped kick start an international recession.

 

[Guartho]

^ gold. Pure gold. Though, the Feds do have a whole lot more "credit card" debt.

 

[Crusher Disciple]

Well, we had to. Wages have stagnated for about 20 years and the price of housing, goods and basic necessities have risen.

 

[Garak]

I can understand the argument of letting the gov't run a program when gov't has a history of screwing things up, but if you don't try how will you ever know? If there is potentially a better option that protects all your citizens, why not give it a try?

We here in America think we have more common sense and are better with money than the federal government despite having, on average, eight grand in credit card debt and a record rate of foreclosure that helped kick start an international recession.

Touche.

 

[Awesome Possum]

It is true that the current proposals in the US Congress don't go nearly far enough, so in a way I guess it's not "real" reform. But it's better than nothing.

I'd also like to know how it's "a power grab designed to limit our freedoms". And don't repeat the so-often-refuted lies about rationing, or being forced to change plans or doctors.



Marian

Hey, you can choose to drink the liberal kool-aid all you want. It is what it is.

Considering all the conservative kool-aid seems to be missing, we didn't have a choice. Also you might want to wipe your mouth the drink leaves a stain.


For what its worth, the kool-aid reference as it is connected to Jonestown is highly inaccurate. They used some knock-off brand.

 

[RJDiogenes]

Not Funny Face, though.

 

[RyanKCR]

"Blessed are the poor..."

"Hey there Jesus, watch that. I'm not paying for their lazy asses to have basic health care."

Tell me where in that passage does it say to tax from the rich and give it to the poor?

I'm not going to bother with that passage because I don't have to. The rest of the second passage I posted is very clear about the Godliness of paying taxes and doing what Congress and the president tell you to.

This is also why you pay taxes, for the authorities are God's servants, who give their full time to governing. 7Give everyone what you owe him: If you owe taxes, pay taxes; if revenue, then revenue; if respect, then respect; if honor, then honor.

Seems pretty clear that if the feds say pay taxes for universal health care then do it because God put them there to tell you to do that.

Also I'll ask you: What money did you send to help that boy?

Why are you asking me that? I have posted nothing about that boy and I've also posted that I can barely afford health insurance premiums myself. It makes no sense for you to ask me that.

Also I'll ask you: How much money have you sent to Santa Clause?

I ask because everyone who wants UHC is so concerned for those who don't have insurance and parade these people and I want to see how concerned they really are.

For that verse you do know what that was really about don't you? It is not about blind acceptance for the government or do you think the Christians who hid the Jews were violating that verse? Besides UHC is not hear yet and I don't believe it should arrive. We need reform not another government run program.

 

[Pingfah]

I ask because everyone who wants UHC is so concerned for those who don't have insurance and parade these people and I want to see how concerned they really are.

Concerned enough to advocate UHC

 

[sidious618]

If I gave money to every person who needed it for health care I'd be broke and forced to prostitute myself.

So business as usual, I guess.

 

[RyanKCR]

I ask because everyone who wants UHC is so concerned for those who don't have insurance and parade these people and I want to see how concerned they really are.

Concerned enough to advocate UHC

Not enough to do something yourself, just enought to demand someone else do it.

If I gave money to every person who needed it for health care I'd be broke and forced to prostitute myself.

So business as usual, I guess.

So you decided to nothing at all but expect someone else to do it? If you can't do it then why would someone else be able to do it?