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Starting from the beginning--when does ENT get good?

HopefulRomantic- your last long post summed up how I feel as well.
:biggrin: :biggrin: :biggrin:

I'm hoping to get into this very soon. I watched it when it first aired but I didn't like it much and didn't watch every episode. I remember liking Trip, T'Pol and Dr. Phlox but I hated Archer and I barely remember what the rest of the cast looked like let alone acted like. It always came across as a poorly conceived idea that didn't know whether it wanted to be a prequel to TOS or another incarnation of TNG/VOY.

Needless to say the series finale is burned into my brain for the rest of eternity. Even with me not being a fan of the series I felt sorry for the cast and the fans of Enterprise. Hopefully I'll manage to appreciate the series upon my second viewing.
In my case, I think seeing the first 3 seasons all at once really helped. I didn't have to stew for a week over an episode that was badly written, or hampered by character inconsistency - I benefited from seeing the overall arc of the development of the show and the characters, which smoothed out a lot of rough edges.

Of course, nothing could improve TATV for me, gaaah :ack: But we'll always have "Demons"/"Terra Prime," thank goodness.

I wish you happy viewing, Terok Nor, and look forward to your comments in your next go-round. :)
 
In my case, I think seeing the first 3 seasons all at once really helped. I didn't have to stew for a week over an episode that was badly written, or hampered by character inconsistency - I benefited from seeing the overall arc of the development of the show and the characters, which smoothed out a lot of rough edges.
Totally agree and your experiences match mine, I did not like the show before I did watch all of it. Even more than any other Trek show ENT has to be watched as a whole, perpaps because there is a lot of thematic serialization in the show which you might not get if you just watch it sporadicarlly.
 
I am glad that people in this thread have suggested watching it all together. I was planning to come here and post the same thing. I started from the beginning and slogged my way through it all. At times, I found myself thinking, "this is the worst," and other times I could not get enough. I can't say I have a favorite season really or that one is the best. I like a lot of season 4 but I like a lot of the other seasons as well. What I found after I finished the series is that I actually missed watching it. I ended up going back and immediately rewatching some episodes from the first and second seasons. My advice is to push through the crappy episodes to find the gold.
 
As much as I dislike the first two seasons, I have to agree with watching them in order, if it can be tolerated. The only reasons are that there are a small number of episodes in the first two seasons with actual geo (astro?) political importance which increase the depth of episodes in season 4, and create an interesting contrast and important background setup for certain major season 3 episodes as well as its entire ark.

As for the quality of season 1 and 2, it comes from the writing being pulled in all sorts of directions by the show producers, and network executives. The execs hated having a scifi show on their channel, did not understand it at all, and wanted same-old Trek, because they knew that works, and any deviation scared them. The show runners wanted something different, but at the same time I'm fairly certain they were holding to certain incompatible ideas as well. Basically, what happened with Voyager happened even worse with Enterprise.

Season 3 is the point where the network finally gave up and let the producers have some freedom. Season 4 everyone in charge finally gave up, and a new guy finally took charge, and we finally got interesting and important episodes on a regular basis.

In the end we got a show with a captain who is out of his depth, which should have been interesting, yet despite screwing up many times, the show portrays him as in the right and qualified. Plots were reused from other Trek series, and from within ENT itself. The show shoe horns the prime directive into the setting. I remember my initial impression of the crew being somewhat off putting.

The first season quickly becomes bland and half hearted, and the second season is outright boring for the most part. That's just from memory, since I have only watched them since their original run.

Also, my favorite episode is the Space Time Nazi episode which concluded the time war arc. It's one of only two episodes I actually like out of that mess, not counting season 3. The other one is the one where the Tholians are chasing down the 31st century time machine which is larger on the inside than the outside. That was a very cool episode.
 
The show shoe horns the prime directive into the setting.

I always did feel that the show was too hesitant to explore the possibilities of a pre-Prime Directive era. I've always thought that the PD must've been a reaction to some disaster that resulted from early Starfleet crews interfering too recklessly. It would've been interesting to see those early mistakes that Starfleet made and later learned from. Fortunately, I've ended up writing the post-series Enterprise novels, and I've been able to do what I wanted the show to do, i.e. take advantage of the freedom to depict a Starfleet that isn't yet constrained by a non-interference rule.
 
Also, my favorite episode is the Space Time Nazi episode which concluded the time war arc. It's one of only two episodes I actually like out of that mess, not counting season 3.

Oh no, not the Space Nazi episode! I'm glad you found something to like, but did it have to be that one:guffaw:The premise of the episode IMO was just a step too far, and this is coming from a ST die hard. In the end I also found things to like about the episode, namely the conclusion to the Suliban arc started in season 1, but I guess I couldn't include this two-parter as a favorite.

Having said that I think I'd watch this episode over half of what is now put on TV today. I guess I'm getting old.... and get off my lawn!
 
The show shoe horns the prime directive into the setting.

I always did feel that the show was too hesitant to explore the possibilities of a pre-Prime Directive era. I've always thought that the PD must've been a reaction to some disaster that resulted from early Starfleet crews interfering too recklessly. It would've been interesting to see those early mistakes that Starfleet made and later learned from.
Ehm, there was no Prime Directive yet and the disaster you described is is precisely what happened in "Cogenitor".
Sure, it is just a suicide and not some large scale disaster but Trek wouldn't be Trek if it cared less about the life of one being than that of billions.

In my opinion the show featured the best Prime Directive episodes of the franchise. When you watch "Cogenitor" you do side with Trip, you feel with him and are convinced that his case is righteous. Unlike any other story I think that this is the one which really drives home how counterintuitive (and precisely because of that how absolutely necessary; you do not need ethical rules (of course you do need laws though) for obvious stuff like "do not murder") the Prime Directive is.
 
The show shoe horns the prime directive into the setting.

I always did feel that the show was too hesitant to explore the possibilities of a pre-Prime Directive era. I've always thought that the PD must've been a reaction to some disaster that resulted from early Starfleet crews interfering too recklessly. It would've been interesting to see those early mistakes that Starfleet made and later learned from.
Ehm, there was no Prime Directive yet and the disaster you described is is precisely what happened in "Cogenitor".
Sure, it is just a suicide and not some large scale disaster but Trek wouldn't be Trek if it cared less about the life of one being than that of billions.

But isn't the fate of an entire species also tied up in Archer's decision? But yes, I could have done with some more stark examples of how 'harmless interference' could have unintended consequences dire enough to justify the existence of the PD. And would have also enjoyed the irony of Starfleet having to institute the same policy for others that the Vulcans wanted to institute for them.

"History has proved again and again that whenever mankind interferes with a less developed civilization, no matter how well-intentioned that interference may be, the results are invariably disastrous."

I would have liked to have seen some of that history (er, outside of Earth's own actual history of devastating civilizations, which Picard's quote seems to be an obvious reference to).
 
Ehm, there was no Prime Directive yet and the disaster you described is is precisely what happened in "Cogenitor".
Sure, it is just a suicide and not some large scale disaster but Trek wouldn't be Trek if it cared less about the life of one being than that of billions.

I think for storytelling purposes a large-scale disaster is required. But that would be preceded by a series of smaller tragedies.

I don't think you could really argue that one tragedy would lead to a non-interference policy, because people would say, "That was a one-off - look at the good we've done these other times." There needs to be a series of unfortunate events before Starfleet begins to think that, on balance, it's better not to get involved.
 
"History has proved again and again that whenever mankind interferes with a less developed civilization, no matter how well-intentioned that interference may be, the results are invariably disastrous."

I would have liked to have seen some of that history (er, outside of Earth's own actual history of devastating civilizations, which Picard's quote seems to be an obvious reference to).

Except that quote is total rubbish. There are plenty of cases in Earth history where a "less developed" civilization got knowledge and ideas from a more advanced civilization and thrived as a result. For instance, Europe got all sorts of innovations from the more advanced cultures of the Mideast and Asia -- gunpowder, stirrups, the magnetic compass, the lateen sail, decimal mathematics, the printing press, etc. -- and not only did not get destroyed by the influx of foreign knowledge and technology, but used it to thrive and dominate all those formerly more advanced societies.

The idea that it's an inevitable law of nature that the "less advanced" society will always be damaged by interaction is just a way of letting Europeans off the hook for the damage they caused to other societies. It lets us pretend it was just an unavoidable accident, rather than the result of a deliberate campaign of cultural domination and assimilation. (It's also very ethnocentric and self-congratulatory, because not all those cultures were "less advanced" at all. Native American society was comparable in advancement to Europe in a lot of ways -- less aware of some technologies, but far more skilled in others, so it balanced out. The main things that devastated the Americas were European diseases, which spread along existing Native American trade routes and wiped out 95% of the population before European settlers ever reached them.)
 
"History has proved again and again that whenever mankind interferes with a less developed civilization, no matter how well-intentioned that interference may be, the results are invariably disastrous."

Except that quote is total rubbish.

Yes, Trek doesn't always differentiate between obvious interference (picking sides in a war being the classic example) and the more nebulous notion of "cultural contamination". The latter plays on unfortunate politically correct ideas about maintaining the purity of a primitive culture by quarantining it. Earth history shows that cultures constantly intermingle and become enriched as a result, but according to (some interpretations of) the Prime Directive, a hunter-gatherer seeing a spaceship must regarded as a cultural atrocity.
 
The show shoe horns the prime directive into the setting.

I always did feel that the show was too hesitant to explore the possibilities of a pre-Prime Directive era. I've always thought that the PD must've been a reaction to some disaster that resulted from early Starfleet crews interfering too recklessly. It would've been interesting to see those early mistakes that Starfleet made and later learned from. Fortunately, I've ended up writing the post-series Enterprise novels, and I've been able to do what I wanted the show to do, i.e. take advantage of the freedom to depict a Starfleet that isn't yet constrained by a non-interference rule.
I agree with you. In hind sight, it's my wish for the Prime Directive to have been a result of very well meaning, humanitarian blundering on Archer's part.

Just imagine, he could involve Earth in an interplanetary war in a single solar system (he almost did just that, possibly twice, but it had no lingering results), he ties an alien race to Earth as dependents, he addicts a planet to pain killer due to funky biology (a twist on Dear Doctor perhaps), he gives subspace technology to a 20th century style planet and the state he gives the tech to becomes world dominating (not necessarily militarily, but still throw things out of wack for the locals), he inadvertently enslaves a race to a machine god, he inadvertently replaces a primitive society's god with himself and forms a violent aggressive religion which ultimately leads to the group getting killed off, at some point he encounters a brutal planet bound threat to humanity which is partially his fault and doesn't wipe them out or otherwise solve the situation. Basically take any Kirk or Picard episode where they face a self styled god or a pre-warp civilization, and try to think of the funniest or worst outcome for Archer to cause.

It just needs to lead into a Prime Directive where a hands off attitude prevails, but where no strings attached, one time aid still happens.
Also, my favorite episode is the Space Time Nazi episode which concluded the time war arc. It's one of only two episodes I actually like out of that mess, not counting season 3.

Oh no, not the Space Nazi episode! I'm glad you found something to like, but did it have to be that one:guffaw:The premise of the episode IMO was just a step too far, and this is coming from a ST die hard. In the end I also found things to like about the episode, namely the conclusion to the Suliban arc started in season 1, but I guess I couldn't include this two-parter as a favorite.

Having said that I think I'd watch this episode over half of what is now put on TV today. I guess I'm getting old.... and get off my lawn!

Its absurdity is exactly what I like about it so much, but you're not alone, I can't think of anyone other than myself who genuinely loves that episode. When I first saw it it was like watching something out of the original series. To me the episode was absolutely amazing and the kind of wackiness I had been waiting for.


Ehm, there was no Prime Directive yet and the disaster you described is is precisely what happened in "Cogenitor".
Sure, it is just a suicide and not some large scale disaster but Trek wouldn't be Trek if it cared less about the life of one being than that of billions.
"Cogenitor" was a mess specifically because of Archer's magic Prime Directive sense, and is just a poor rehash of TNG: "The Outcast." He says we mustn't interfere in the workings of their society, and whatnot. Except it is balogna. They're out there willingly interacting with all sorts of civilizations all the time, just like the Enterprise crew. He says what he does only because he cares more about political connections and advanced technology, so the pseudo Prime Directive reasoning is just self serving.

The weird thing is, the only time Picard ever treats asylum like a negotiable thing is in "The Outcast" (and for some reason Janeway when Quinn wants asylum on Voyager) but in all other instances if someone comes to him it's just granted. The except being where he suspected the person may have been involved in an assassination.

The difference in "The Outcast" is that the person in question was not on the ship at the time, but he does say he will negotiate to get her released from her people. Archer deliberated on his own yet declines. In the situations where Picard got to choose on his own those situations had far greater affect, such as giving asylum to a Romulan defector. Sisko also gave asylum to a Bajoran terrorist who had just escaped from the Cardassians, even though it would make the political situation worse. That's all with the Prime Directive actually existing.

I believe that if Picard had the person right in front of him and he was asked for asylum he would have granted it without hesitation, as he did in most other situations. The only reason it is a Prime Directive issue is because he would have to use force to extract the person. Force would mean going into the alien society and stirring junk up, and that's contrary to the Prime Directive. He wanted to do things the local's way to keep things peaceful and respectful and thus in accordance with the Prime Directive. It's similar to when he negotiated to save Wesley's life from execution from that weird Eden world.

So my conclusion is, Archer definitely was not in accordance with the Prime Directive. Picard would have accepted the asylum request, and that's with the actual Prime Directive to answer to.

Except that quote is total rubbish. There are plenty of cases in Earth history where a "less developed" civilization got knowledge and ideas from a more advanced civilization and thrived as a result. For instance, Europe got all sorts of innovations from the more advanced cultures of the Mideast and Asia -- gunpowder, stirrups, the magnetic compass, the lateen sail, decimal mathematics, the printing press, etc. -- and not only did not get destroyed by the influx of foreign knowledge and technology, but used it to thrive and dominate all those formerly more advanced societies.
Europe is pretty unique in how the regions are divided by rough terrain, but open enough for regular contact. It's fractured yet allows enough contact that war seems like a good idea. It keeps the area very vibrant, because no single faction can conquer all other factions, and if one group wants to drop an idea, the other groups keeping that idea forces the other to keep with it. It means a good idea like guns never goes out of style, where as in Japan the Shogun was able to suppress them, and in China technology in all sorts of areas diminished because of one body's decision.

It's very easy to see all of the introduced technologies as having lead to bigger better, and further flung wars. Besides which, there are different kinds of contact. There's the very direct contact which can lead to conquest, and there is the light contact which is like a filter. The Japanese got the filter version of contact, they got Dutch guns and potatoes, but didn't get conquered because they were so far away and contact was hard. I'm not sure much changed for the Japanese.

In contrast the Maori got nice filtered contact, with no conquest, but did get guns too. The tribes which got them quickly realized what they had and killed off any tribes which didn't have guns.

Romans conquering Greece, totally unfiltered, but Greece ended up assimilating the Romans culturally, even if the Greeks were assimilated politically into Rome.

Over all though, as wealth spreads and populations grow, human caused death (every day violence and war) decreases.

The Prime Directive isn't just about isolating societies, it's about respect, at least in TNG. If a primitive society is right next door, then unfiltered contact is just about inevitable, and lack of respect for their ways means getting steamrolled and becoming just another little, and resentful, part of Earth in the heavens. But, when Picard has to interact with societies, regardless of advancement, he approaches them with respect and tries to work with their rules while in their sphere. That's what I like to think the Prime Directive writers were fearing in-universe.
"History has proved again and again that whenever mankind interferes with a less developed civilization, no matter how well-intentioned that interference may be, the results are invariably disastrous."

Except that quote is total rubbish.

Yes, Trek doesn't always differentiate between obvious interference (picking sides in a war being the classic example) and the more nebulous notion of "cultural contamination". The latter plays on unfortunate politically correct ideas about maintaining the purity of a primitive culture by quarantining it. Earth history shows that cultures constantly intermingle and become enriched as a result, but according to (some interpretations of) the Prime Directive, a hunter-gatherer seeing a spaceship must regarded as a cultural atrocity.
I feel like the cultural contamination idea must have started as a backlash against Kirk's era. It probably was a well meaning form of respect for other civilization's methods. But, the idea quickly turned into some sort of purity fetish, at least in regard to pre-warp civilizations. So, the idea of a healthy civilization turned from one which is dynamic and can adapt or which promotes humanitarian values, and instead a healthy civilization became one which is untouched by any extra-planetary cultures.

At the same time, it helps make sense as to why Picard wants to work within alien systems. Working within those systems reinforces them, but barging in and doing what you want is the essence of contamination.
 
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"Cogenitor" was a mess specifically because of Archer's magic Prime Directive sense.
What magic sense? He knows that messing with this society is wrong because of the events of "Dear Doctor". Trip knows as well but he follows his gut, he views this alien society through a human lense and from a human perspective the third sex is clearly mistreated.
But the whole point of the Prime Directive is that applying human ethics upon other species is ethically wrong. It is the 101 of interspecies ethics and not really that hard to understand once you think about it.

Virtually no species in the universe would behave like we wanted them to be. Even the Vulcans, their arranged marriages violate human rights.

Or think about the Klingons. In all important aspect they are the very opposite of is: they cherish death, humans cherish life, they are aristocratic, we are democratic. Humans never pretend that these differences do not exist and when the Klingons got nasty the Feds defended themselves. But precisely because they followed the Prime Directive an uneasy peace became psosible in the 24th century.

We are not out there to be missionaries and enlighten (meaning in this instance tyrannize) the galaxy via making out human ethics universal. They surely are universal on our planet but not universal in the galaxy.
 
Yes, Trek doesn't always differentiate between obvious interference (picking sides in a war being the classic example) and the more nebulous notion of "cultural contamination". The latter plays on unfortunate politically correct ideas about maintaining the purity of a primitive culture by quarantining it. Earth history shows that cultures constantly intermingle and become enriched as a result, but according to (some interpretations of) the Prime Directive, a hunter-gatherer seeing a spaceship must regarded as a cultural atrocity.

Exactly. TNG totally missed the point of the Prime Directive. In the TOS era, the idea was "We mustn't be so arrogant as to think of other races as helpless children who need us to make their decisions for them; they understand their cultures better than we do and are more qualified to choose the paths that will work for them." But the TNG interpretation of the Prime Directive was "Other races are helpless children too primitive and ignorant to understand our sophisticated ideas, so we must make the decision for them that they must be insulated from knowledge, even if it kills them." It's embracing the exact same condescending White Man's Burden imperialism that the original PD rejected; it just flips the script from imposed intervention to imposed isolation.
 
I was under the impression that "Cogenitor" resulted in the humans and later Federation losing a potential technologically advanced ally due to Trip's actions. Archer got along well with their leader, but after the suicide, he basically told Archer to go away and never come back. At least that is what I got out of it.

This species might later have been absorbed or destroyed by the Romulans or Klingons due to Archer's blunder keeping them out of Earth and the later Federation's sphere of influence.
 
^No, there's evidence that Earth did enter into trade with the Vissians despite the events of "Cogenitor." Primarily, the Vissians had torpedoes armed with "photonic warheads," and a few months later, as of the start of the Xindi mission, Starfleet started using photonic torpedoes.
 
At first blush, that seems like a double standard, approving of the objectification of a male character but disapproving of it with a female character.
It is a double standard, but there already is one, I've just flipped it on its head so that men can be objectified rather than women for a change :lol:. It was actually a breath of fresh air I found, though admittedly it's something that should be put to rest, regardless of gender.

Needed to comment on this....

This is not ok. I get that you said this is jest, but some people do reason like that. Equality is not about saying, women have been objectified so much, let's do it to men now. It's about OR being ok with both genders being objectified OR no objectification at all.


As for Enterprise...
I was actually kinda surprised by the show from the get-go, but it never really did it for me. I saw half of season 3, and 4 I only saw much later. And I found that, in rewatching the show from the beginning, there is a lot of good to be found. Sure, some episodes were pretty bad. Some characters didn't work so well at the start, and not even at the end.

But overall, I do believe Enterprise really added something to the Star Trek canon, and I'm we have it, even seasons 1 and 2.
 
All Trek deserves to be rewatched. It's good and it rewards viewers for paying attention.

I'd recently rewatched Star Trek (2009) and Into Darkness. Coming out of those (and remebering this thread) I decided to check out a few ENT episodes here and there throughout the series.

It's very difficult to go from JJTrek to Enterprise. It's probably a lot easier to go the other way around. I love the characters and the premise but there are far too many repeating cliches in the first couple of seasons - watching Archer get beat up over and over and over again is borderline insulting to watch. Stinkers like Brave New World, Terra Nova, Civilization, Rouge Planet, Oasis and Detained give support to the idea that many would jump ship before its finer moments come to the screen. But you have to stick with it - every Trek has stinkers and winners. When ENT is good it's damn good. The rewards for making it past season one are totally worth it!
 
Other races are helpless children too primitive and ignorant to understand our sophisticated ideas, so we must make the decision for them that they must be insulated from knowledge, even if it kills them." It's embracing the exact same condescending White Man's Burden imperialism that the original PD rejected; it just flips the script from imposed intervention to imposed isolation.
You seem to refer to the notion that Starfleet should not make contact with pre-warp civilizations but misunderstand the motivation for this.
The goal is not to keep knowledge to yourself but rather to not influence a species who's path will be significantly changed after you reveal yourselves. The very culture might become xenophobic or submissive to the powerful aliens they meet. In short, all kind of nasty shit can happen when your very presence becomes one of the crucial historical moments of another culture.
It is no exaggeration that the first contact with the Vulcans was the single most important historical event for humankind, it lead to unification, peace and prosperity. Now imagine what would have happened if the Vulcans had landed on Earth and made first contact with Hitler or Khan. What if they had played nice protector and taken our nuclear weapons from us.

Messing with another species before they are most likely (First Contact shows that evem first contact with a civilization that has warp power is not guaranteed to work out well) ready to deal with the fact that there are other sentient lifeforms out there is a pretty horrible crime, forbidden by the rule number one of the United Federation of Planets.
 
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