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Starships of the 2230's

Judging by your pic, the bridge windows would be no larger than a car windshield.

They'd be the height of half my deliberate giant, or two-thirds of a grown man, as confirmed here:

http://movies.trekcore.com/gallery/albums/xihd/trekxihd0061.jpg

Also, you're using Richter's inaccurate model that has an incorrect saucer shape (his is a vitually flat) and totally different windows along the spine and saucer rim to what's actually in the movie.

The windows along the spine are not "totally different" - they are almost exactly the same. See below.

http://movies.trekcore.com/gallery/albums/xihd/trekxihd0005.jpg

we can see from the opening flyby that the windows on the bump below the bridge deck are the height of the person standing in one.

No, we can't. Instead, here we can see that the windows on the second tier of the superstructure and on the sides of the spine are half the height of a docking port, just like every other square or round porthole on the ship save for the three forward-facing bridge windows.

http://movies.trekcore.com/gallery/albums/xihd/trekxihd0003.jpg

We can also see corridors inside the windows along the spine of the ship.

...Establishing the very corridor height from my sketch, and thus a single-deck saucer.

Timo Saloniemi
 
as confirmed here
By people standing in the middle of the bridge with a camera right over the captain's shoulder?
No, we can't
Yes we can. It's right there, seconds before the shot you posted.
almost exactly the same
With all respect to Mr Richter (and his at the time work-in-progress), no they're not. They're no more an accurate guide to the actual USS Kelvin CG model than any fan made CG can be used to analyze details on the 11-foot TOS shooting model. Take a look at the shots of the Kelvin model, and it's windows, in the "Art of the Movie" book.
Establishing the very corridor height from my sketch, and thus a single-deck saucer
Again, inacurrate model.
You're also ignoring the two window rows at the saucer's rear, the Kelvin-type cutaway saucer we see over Vulcan with two decks in the rim and the Kelvin shuttlebay, which would be impossible unless the hanger is at least as wide as the TOS Enterprise's.
 
I spent an awful lot of time a year ago trying to make both the Enterprise and the Kelvin work at TOS scales and couldn't get it to work. The real problem is the bridge: from the top of the dome to the base of the platform underneath it wouldn't cover the height of the saucer rim; not even close. And the bridge dome is almost certainly a meter or so taller than the actual deck height, which necessitates a two-deck saucer any way you look at it.
Ah, but the interior view shows that the bridge wouldn't start from the top of the dome. Rather, even its outer rim (and not just the middle pit) would be sunken a bit into the second tier of the superstructure.
Which makes virtually no difference. The bridge deck would have to extend all the way to the bottom of the second tier in order to fit the ~300 meter scale; this alone would be consistent with a single-deck saucer but would be inconsistent with a bridge that doesn't completely fill the dome and WILDLY inconsistent with the shape and size of the viewscreen.

The scale you're using here would put the Kelvin in the neighborhood of 400 meters; that still wouldn't fit the interiors or the shuttlebay, nor would it give you a one-deck saucer (actually, closer to one and a half).

If that guy were a normal-height fella, the ship could be as small as the Saladin.
Kelvin doesn't have the same proportions as Saladin; it being the same size (similar diameter though much thinner saucer) it would still be around 400 meters long. Again: the only way to fit a one-deck saucer is to have the bridge dome and second tier BOTH fit into the first deck; that would give you your 270 meters, but it would leave you with a Kelvin that is smaller in every measure--by volume, by mass, by size, by diameter and thickness of the saucer--as NX-01... it would be considerably SMALLER than the Saladin despite having the same length.

As you of all people should know, length and size are two different things. Kelvin just isn't that large of a ship even at 457 meters, and the problem is no other size can be made consistent with the interiors we saw.

At the end of the day, you're left with the fact that a 270 meter vessel wasn't in the film, neither was a 300 meter one. The ship that we were presented with was 457 meters long; you're better off finding ways to make your analysis consistent with THAT instead of trying to shoehorn visual cues to fit your own arbitrary assumptions.

It seems pretty clear that the ship was designed to be a certain size
Which is irrelevant since the CANON size is 457 meters long. Visual cues need to be interpreted to be consistent with its established size, not the other way around.

Also, the richter mesh is different from the actual ship (relevantly, in this case) by the shape of the bridge dome and the second tier superstructure. You can see here that they are approximately the same height, and the FILM's model has a bridge with a small platform directly underneath it; there's no reason to assume it's recessed into the second tier, as based on this image the bridge is CLEARLY meant to fit into a single deck of the bridge dome.

Perhaps you are confusing Tobias Richter's scaling intentions with those of ILM? Have you considered that possibility?
 
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No offense, but you don't know what you're talking about. The Kelvin fits in the prime timeline just like the NX-01 does. Just because you can't get past the outdated TOS design aesthetic doesn't invalidate the 2009 design aesthetic of the film.

Ah, the usual "No offense but I'm about to seriously insult you for your tastes and put in a few direct insults against you as well" trope. I miss that.

Oh, and got to love the direct attack on TOS again. "It's outdated!" yet it's the only flippin' version of the ship that regularly sells model kits and is the one that most people think of when they hear the words "Starship Enterprise".

Most franchise managers would kill to be that "outdated".

So, for a further reminder, since you seem to need one, you liking something that someone does not does not make you a better person.
 
Size-wise, who says the TOS-1701 isn't the smaller Intrepid-class equivelent of the 2260's?

Just Off hand? Gene Roddenberry, Matt Jefferies, Andrew Probert, Mike Minor, James Doohan, Rick Sternbach, Mike Okuda, and mother fucking Vance.

Seriously, what the hell do you think "Heavy Cruiser" means? It wasn't the "Federation Lifeboat Enterprise" after all.
 
Ah, the usual "No offense but I'm about to seriously insult you for your tastes and put in a few direct insults against you as well" trope. I miss that.

It's not an insult to say that a 1960's design ethos would not work for a big-budget 2009 film, which is essentially why he thinks the Kelvin isn't from the prime timeline, if you'd bothered to actually read what he wrote like I did instead of getting all pissy and defensive at my response because you percieved that I attacked your precious TOS. If you think I was insulting him personally, think again. You just did that to me far more blatantly than you seem to think I did to him. For your information, I happen to love TOS's campy '60's feel. I also think that it would have been a horrible idea to replicate that feel for the movie.

Oh, and got to love the direct attack on TOS again. "It's outdated!" yet it's the only flippin' version of the ship that regularly sells model kits and is the one that most people think of when they hear the words "Starship Enterprise".

That's your defense? Model kit sales?

So, for a further reminder, since you seem to need one, you liking something that someone does not does not make you a better person.

No, I don't need any kind of reminder from you, pal, thanks anyway.:rolleyes:
 
The ship that we were presented with was 457 meters long; you're better off finding ways to make your analysis consistent with THAT instead of trying to shoehorn visual cues to fit your own arbitrary assumptions.

No. It wasn't. The Kelvin was shown to look cool and that was the complete upper bound of thought that went into the design. It has conflicting details all over it, was designed originally to be a Saladin-class vessel and then rescaled, etc. I mean, seriously, when the people in charge not only admitted that they didn't care, but were derisive to those who do - even firing lead artists accordingly - why do you feel the need to religiously defend these details?
 
If I've learned anything from Transformers over the years in regards to scale and appearances, it's that sometimes it's better to ignore some of the inconsistencies. :p
 
It's not an insult to say that a 1960's design ethos would not work for a big-budget 2009 film, which is essentially why he thinks the Kelvin isn't from the prime timeline, if you'd bothered to actually read what he wrote like I did instead of getting all pissy and defensive at my response because you perceived that I attacked your precious TOS.

No, I got pissy because your entire methodology in posting, anywhere and everywhere, amounts to "You have to accept NuTrek overwriting anything that came before, no matter what's involved, and you're a stupid old-timing idiot if you have problems with it."

Pretty much your continued tone with these posts, actually.

The Kelvin, as shown, doesn't fit the TOS timeline as shown, because it would necessarily be larger than one of the largest ships in the fleet. A "heavy cruiser" is one of the biggest things any fleet has, short of "Battleship" and "Carrier".

The design ethic is very different between NuTrek and TOS and deliberately so. Simple as that.

If you think I was insulting him personally, think again.

You did, and regularly do to anyone who criticizes anything about NuTrek. You're bordering on religious zealotry in pushing the frank absurdity that people who love TOS must accept this new movie as something that really happened in TOS's timeline which it, of course, didn't.

That's your defense? Model kit sales?

Well, I'm not seeing a big casual demand for sets of the USS Kelvin or the NuEnterprise out there. Maybe I missed it? Where's that big-ass cutaway poster at Borders? How about that big new tech book on the new ship with the NuEnterprise on the cover? Oh, wait, that was the outdated original too.

Toy sales? Ark Asylum sales? ... It's always the classic ship, even more than the uprated version. So sorry that your new "Enterprise with Penis Distension" didn't erase that horrible ship from memory for you, though.

No, I don't need any kind of reminder from you, pal, thanks anyway.:rolleyes:

You most apparently do.
 
I find your intense hatred of me extremely humorous, Vance. I had no idea that I ruffle your feathers as much as I do, considering I barely know you. Perhaps you should calm down and not take this stuff quite so seriously. Or if you really have some huge beef with my posts, send me a PM and we can discuss it personally.
 
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I find your intense hatred of me extremely humorous, Vance. I had no idea that I ruffle your feathers as much as I do. Perhaps you should calm down and not take this stuff quite so seriously. Or if you really have some huge beef with my posts, send me a PM and we can discuss it personally.

Nah, I'll say it publically since you're not the only person who does this. I have three points.

1) Quit trying to convert me to the new movie. I own it, I enjoyed it. It's a fun ride that made Paramount some much-needed cash. It was light summer-fare which got a lot of butts in seats and did its job. It is not, however, the Star Trek that I've been a part of, and grew up with. As bad as "And the Children Shall Lead" may be, it's still TOS. This movie isn't any more than NuBSG is the original BSG.

2) Quit trying to sell me on NuTrek's tech and really being TOS. As has been said many times, NuTrek's producers have deliberately avoided and ignored technical details feeling (somewhat rightly) that they undermined 1990's Trek. To this end they were very sloppy with things like sets, model scaling, effects shots, and so on. The movie is filled with pretty gross errors if you pay attention. In these respects it's absurd to use the technical details in the new movie as a base-line for even the movie itself, much less the OTHER 40 years of the franchise history.

3) Quit assuming your knowledge trumps everyone else. Some of us here actually have worked with the powers that be at various times. Some of us have names like Sternback, Okuda, Probert, Eaves and even Abrams on our short lists. Hell, some of us are Sternback, Okuda, Probert, Eaves and even Abrams. Why should I take your word as gospel when the people who actually are responsible for the product are telling me different things?

That's pretty much it. I want you to stop claiming to be an authority on these issues when you're usually both wrong and degrading, which spreads false information that often results in stupid, petty arguments that go on for 20 pages. Simple as that.
 
1) Quit trying to convert me to the new movie.

I don't give a shit whether you or anyone else liked or disliked the movie.

2) Quit trying to sell me on NuTrek's tech and really being TOS.
You can think whatever you want. I'm going by what the creators of the film intended, and even if I wasn't, I have no problem fitting it into TOS, and I've explained my rationale on numerous occasions. If you don't agree with me, fine. But that's your problem, not mine.

3) Quit assuming your knowledge trumps everyone else.
That feeling is your own personal preconception, and it is wrong. But I honestly don't have to defend myself to you.

I want you to stop claiming to be an authority on these issues when you're usually both wrong and degrading, which spreads false information that often results in stupid, petty arguments that go on for 20 pages. Simple as that.

I'm sorry, I didn't realize that you were a moderator and had power over what I can and can't write. Even if the above were true, do you think I or anyone else is going to do what you say? No, they're not. I want a million-dollar house and be married to Hayden Panettiere. Am I going to get what I want? No. Neither are you.

If you have anything else you'd like to discuss, feel free to PM me. I'm done bringing up this silliness to you in public.
 
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I don't give a shit whether you or anyone else liked or disliked the movie.

Hardly true, else you wouldn't be acting in the manner which you do. You're absolutely evangelical about accepting this movie as 'canon' and applying it to TOS's backstory. Despite that this works the other way around.

You can think whatever you want. I'm going by what the creators of the film intended, and even if I wasn't, I have no problem fitting it into TOS, and I've explained my rationale on numerous occasions. If you don't agree with me, fine. But that's your problem, not mine.

Considering that you're flat wrong about the intention of the creators of the movie, I'm calling out "bullshit" on this one. You're pursuing what interpretation that you prefer, which is fine and which is what most people here actually do, but please stop pretending otherwise - much less trying to beat up other people for it on a regular basis.

That feeling is your own personal preconception, and it is wrong. But I honestly don't have to defend myself to you.

You have several absolute statements, you claim to speak on behalf of the movie's creators, you've been insulting to TOS fans who don't like the new movie, and you're continuing this argument while claiming that you 'don't care'.

I'm sorry, I didn't realize that you were a moderator and had power over what I can and can't write. Even if the above were true, do you think I or anyone else is going to do what you say? No, they're not. I want a million-dollar house and be married to Hayden Panettiere. Am I going to get what I want? No. Neither are you.

Did you just really reply with "You're not my dad?" as a defense? Remember, you asked. I answered. I did it publicly because you're not the only person guilty of doing this, even in this thread.

If the OP was looking for backstory for the NuTrek universe, then fine - we can go from that direction. The problem is the assumption and demand that the NuTrek back-story is the same as TOS, which it is explicitly not. Rather than help the poster with the issues at hand, you launched a crusade about how right your vision of Trek was, and how everyone else should be ignored because some SFX shot in reel 2 of the movie suggested that the secondary head has two urinal cakes instead of one.
 
Some people think it split when the Borg traveled back in First Contact. Hence Enterprise and Trek XI are a separate timeline.

That was explicitly stated by Berman and Braga (both of which were rather vindictive about the existence of the original series). What makes this strange is that it's clear that First Contact happened in TNG's timeline, but pre-empts TOS happening as it did.

Though it could explain why people who lived in TUC showed up dead in VOY's flashback. :)

So, basically, you have to ask, before looking at the 2230s, which 2230s are you looking at, since you'll get very different results.

30 years prior to TOS?
30 years prior to NuTrek?
80 years after ENT?
 
^ Well, if you consider "These Are the Voyages..." is set is 2161, it would be more like 69 years...
 
Size-wise, who says the TOS-1701 isn't the smaller Intrepid-class equivelent of the 2260's?

Just Off hand? Gene Roddenberry, Matt Jefferies, Andrew Probert, Mike Minor, James Doohan, Rick Sternbach, Mike Okuda, and mother fucking Vance.

If you're gonna include manuals and various comments, fine - then see it as a retcon. TPTB fitted in an entire starship Enterprise before Kirk's. A warp core was retroactively put on the TOS Connie, invalidating Franz Joseph's old works and the original intent of Matt Jefferies. Okuda's Chronology, which invalidated the prior Spaceflight Chronology book, comes with a disclaimer to take the whole thing with a pinch of salt. Similar with the TNG Tech Manual and Mr. Scott's Guide to the Enterprise.

Star Trek is a legacy of retcons and rewrites, and the USS Kelvin and the rest of STXI is no different. Whether you personally like the film or not, it and it's ideas as valid as the rest, IMO.
 
Whoa whoa :D That's "the glass is half-empty talk".

Different continuities for different spokes happen in Trek.

Manuals and chronologies are fun to read but usually have no exact bearing on the filmed material. You could think of each book and even filmed material as it's own little pocket universe of stuff that just happens to be called "Star Trek".

TPTB fitted in an entire starship Enterprise before Kirk's. A warp core was retroactively put on the TOS Connie, invalidating Franz Joseph's old works and the original intent of Matt Jefferies. Okuda's Chronology, which invalidated the prior Spaceflight Chronology book, comes with a disclaimer to take the whole thing with a pinch of salt. Similar with the TNG Tech Manual and Mr. Scott's Guide to the Enterprise.

Star Trek is a legacy of retcons and rewrites, and
the USS Kelvin and the rest of STXI is no different. Whether you personally like the film or not, it and it's ideas as valid as the rest, IMO.

Yep, valid indeed. No less or more valid than the myriad of tech books or televised film too - as long as they're seen in the context of the mind of that material's creator :)
 
^ Well, if you consider "These Are the Voyages..." is set is 2161, it would be more like 69 years...

Nah, just a badly written holodeck program from someone with very little regard for the actual historical record. The "setting" was stardate 47457.1.

As for the rest, JJTrek has no more canonical bearing on TOS than the Johnny Knoxville "Dukes of Hazzard" movie has on the Dukes of Hazzard tv series. Completely separate animals whose only connection is being owned by the same studio.
 
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