Starships of the 2230's

[Timo]

Starships of the 2230's :
1. Relied mostly on beam weaponry

Where do we get this? The Kelvin did; doesn't mean other ships would have.

2. Had a cruising speed of warp 4, max warp 8.

Again, how so? We didn't see the Kelvin at warp. A quarter of a century later, we saw a fancy new starship do warp 4 when damaged on a maiden voyage, which doesn't give us any information on the warp performance of non-new, non-damaged ships on regular operations.

3. Were in the normal size range for starships.

That goes by definition, of course: even if the Kelvin were two centimeters tall, or perhaps two kilometers long, she'd define "normal size range" for that era.

Externally, the Kelvin was obviously shaped to be a bit less than 300 meters long - in contrast to, say, the TOS Enterprise whose surface detail wasn't completely obvious and whose dimensions thus were easily fudged during production, or the Voyager whose size-establishing surface detail was explicit and whose dimensions were also quite explicit (and never mind that this contradicted some interior views rather badly). Internally, the Kelvin was shot at a size that might be on the upper edge of what we consider "normal", but still not exceptional in comparison with some TNG era designs or earlier plausible-looking fan creations (say, the aforementioned Proxima battleship).

Timo Saloniemi

 

[F. King Daniel]

Externally, the Kelvin was obviously shaped to be a bit less than 300 meters long

The basic proportions of the ship disagree with that assesment. The engineering hull diameter of the Kelvin is the same as that on the TOS-1701, and the saucer is double the diameter. The ridge around the Kelvin saucer indicates the size of the TOS one. It's double-wide, like the Constellation-class saucer is double-deep.

The Kelvin design was inspired by the old Destroyer/Scout, but no more so than the STXI spacedock was based on Franz Joseph's.

 

[Timo]

There are no size-establishing features on the secondary/dorsal hull. There are plenty of size-establishing features on the saucer superstructure and spine, giving a saucer much smaller than "double size". Finally, there are windows on the saucer rim that are exactly as nondescript as those on the rims of the TOS and TMP ships.

I'll dig up a graphic on the superstructure detail when I get back home tonight. The ship may have been designed with various sizes in mind, but the version that ended up onscreen had the detailing of a <300m starship, even if the interiors of something larger. Basically the same thing as with the hero ship, only not quite so extreme.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[F. King Daniel]

There are no size-establishing features on the secondary/dorsal hull. There are plenty of size-establishing features on the saucer superstructure and spine, giving a saucer much smaller than "double size". Finally, there are windows on the saucer rim that are exactly as nondescript as those on the rims of the TOS and TMP ships.

The saucer rim is the same thickness as on the TOS/TMP Enterprises. This is one of the features that requires the saucer to be double the diameter.

I'll dig up a graphic on the superstructure detail when I get back home tonight. The ship may have been designed with various sizes in mind, but the version that ended up onscreen had the detailing of a <300m starship, even if the interiors of something larger. Basically the same thing as with the hero ship, only not quite so extreme.

A <300 meter ship would require a one-deck saucer rim and an engineering hull no wider than the bridge set, which would be absolutely useless.

Here's part of a size chart I made earlier, showing the double-diameter saucer, same-diameter engineering hull, the ridge on top of the Kelvin saucer bieng the width of the TOS saucer and the same two-deck saucer rim:

Ships with saucers this size have existed in fandom since the 80's. Look up the Arial-class shuttlecarrier.

A more logical divergence point is the resolution of the Temporal Cold War, or the lack thereof.

By your nitpicking logic, no two episodes could exist in the same universe. James R. Kirk, changing Saaviks, changing Cochranes, changing Klingons, changing Romulans, goofs , retcons, whichever episodes or films you don't like...

Considering the number of retcons and goofs in all of Star Trek, it's all or nothing. "X is okay but Y isn't" doesn't work.

 

[Timo]

A <300 meter ship would require a one-deck saucer rim and an engineering hull no wider than the bridge set, which would be absolutely useless.

There'd be nothing useless about a one-deck saucer (certainly it would make more sense than the 1.5-deck one of the TOS and TMP ships!), and the engineering hull would be as wide as the superstructure, not as wide as the bridge. Window sizes establish the bridge set as smaller than the superstructure.

Ships with saucers this size have existed in fandom since the 80's. Look up the Arial-class shuttlecarrier.

No objection to that. Size variation is okay, and trends may be deceiving; even the old Spaceflight Chronology featured a bygone starship (the Baton Rouge, which incidentally had features much like those of the Kelvin, including a flat, straight-rimmed saucer some 150 m across and with a terraced superstructure) that was better endowed than Kirk's eventual TOS ship.

It's just that the detailing on the Kelvin is that of a <300 m ship, even though she was used on screen without much regard of this. Other models have also been used wildly out of scale, although usually only after making an initial appearance in the intended scale. For example the ST3 Klingon BoP and the freighter it confronted were portrayed "out of scale" from the get-go, though.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Dukhat]

double post.

 

[Dukhat]

A more logical divergence point is the resolution of the Temporal Cold War, or the lack thereof.

"Shockwave, pt II" showed us the resolution, and the restoration of the timeline to the Star Trek universe we all know and love.

I'm sorry, but to try to use the TCW to explain anything in Star Trek is a lesson in futility. The ENT writers didn't even have a clue about what was going on with it, how it affected things and how it didn't, so why on earth would anyone be able to use it to prove anything?

JJTrek showed us what happened on the other side of that focal point in time, where Archer doesn't quite hit that reset button correctly, and things get worse before they get better.

But Archer's actions had nothing to do with Star Trek '09, even before Nero's incursion. It was the prime timeline, whether you like it or not.

Starfleet is forced to build gargantuan ships earlier, phase weapon technology, instead of getting shelved for a time during the Romulan War, develops faster, and becomes something closer to Star Wars turbolaser type of weapons, and Earth becomes an overdeveloped parody of itself, looking more like Corusant.

Could you please give me some proof that there weren't already very large ships in Starfleet before the TOS Enterprise came along, or that the weapons seen in the film are any different from TOS, or that the entire Earth looks like Coruscant based on seeing only one city? Hell, Earth had the 270m long J-Class freighter 100 years before TOS, and that ship was almost as long as the TOS Enterprise. The NX-01's saucer was juts about the same size as the TOS Enterprise, and that was a century before too.

And for some unknown reason, Vulcans get pink skin instead of the familiar yellowish tone. Might have something to do with Vulcan getting a blue sky (maybe some terraforming project to thicken the atmosphere? Response to a Suliban attack, perhaps?)

I just totally have no idea what you're talking about here. Are you saying that Vulcan's sky is supposed to be red 100% of the time (and because it's blue, it has something to do with the TCW)? How do you know this? And why is this such a big deal?

You could do a whole series just explaining the differences between the two timelines...

You're welcome to do that. Me, I don't give a crap about inane nitpickiness.

 

[blssdwlf]

So when does Kirk die in the "prime" universe? Did he die in Generations or after Scotty retired in Relics?

 

[Dukhat]

So when does Kirk die in the "prime" universe? Did he die in Generations or after Scotty retired in Relics?

Now you're just being silly

 

[blssdwlf]

So when does Kirk die in the "prime" universe? Did he die in Generations or after Scotty retired in Relics?

Now you're just being silly

Schrodinger's Kirk - although I think the whole "prime" universe is silly too

 

[Utopianvista]

The Kelvin isn't in the prime time line. If you want it in the prime timeline you have to ignore the entire series of TOS. Also TNG and DS9 since they show the original Enterprise's bridge (DS9 an entire episode!) It doesn't work. It's pointless to argue how it cannot fit as the gushers will ignore reality.

Sadly all talk about Star Trek history is going to tie into that debate from now on. Lovers of Abrams Trek always wanting to bring up that awful movie and say that a supersized super advanced Kelvin is part of the same universe.

 

[Herkimer Jitty]

I can bring the Kelvin into the Prime verse. The only times I have to clamp my hands over my eyes and ears are A) The immense number of shuttles carried by the Kelvin and B) Starfleet not using phasers in The Cage

As for "lovers" and "gushers"... I think the word "meh" more accuratley describes my thoughts and feelings towards Trek XI.

Now for something more heinous... those TOS gushers who think the NoBloody Enterprise magically works on different principles than in TNG and ENT. Warping backwards? Multiple reactors? Antimatter nacelles? Poppycock, I say! Poppycock! Obviously we can ignore it as an aberration in regards to canon.

 

[David cgc]

Some time ago, I made a Prime-Universe picture featuring Tobias Richter's Kelvin. Since I'm a committed, if not vocal, proponent of the smaller sizes of the Trek XI ships, I scaled it in the most reasonable manner possible- the engineering hull airlock to the door of a travel pod. You can see in the picture plenty of scale-establishing features, including workbees and travel pods (including one in the upper left corner, docked to the engineering airlock) and judge for yourself how sensible the a-bit-more-than-300-meters Kelvin is.

 

[Dukhat]

The Kelvin isn't in the prime time line. If you want it in the prime timeline you have to ignore the entire series of TOS. Also TNG and DS9 since they show the original Enterprise's bridge (DS9 an entire episode!) It doesn't work. It's pointless to argue how it cannot fit as the gushers will ignore reality.

Sadly all talk about Star Trek history is going to tie into that debate from now on. Lovers of Abrams Trek always wanting to bring up that awful movie and say that a supersized super advanced Kelvin is part of the same universe.

No offense, but you don't know what you're talking about. The Kelvin fits in the prime timeline just like the NX-01 does. Just because you can't get past the outdated TOS design aesthetic doesn't invalidate the 2009 design aesthetic of the film.

 

[Gepard]

and judge for yourself how sensible the a-bit-more-than-300-meters Kelvin is.

Looks reasonable, if a wee bit cramped in the engineering hull. Saucer seems fine, though. I like the idea of scaling off the airlocks, but having the engineering hull and inner saucer ridge match the size of the Enterprise refit components appeals to me too. On the whole, I tend to prefer the large sizes, if only because huge ships = teh awesomez.

Isn't 300 meters sort of in between the commonly argued sizes? (I don't recall off the top of my head what the lower figure is, but I thought it was somewhere in the 200-something meter range.)

 

[Crazy Eddie]

And now back to the Kelvin :
2229- Commissioned, penultimate pre-Constitution cruiser (CA)
2233- Minor Refit, computers replaced with Daystorm Duotronic Comps. Paint scheme changed to light gray.
2250-Major Refit to bring into line with Constitution class, Nacelle replaced with new fleet standard. Down graded to CL.
2270- Retired\Sold off. May stay in service in secondary roles.

Something I've noticed and you may want to keep in mind: starships only seem to share design elements when they're in a similar size/weight range. Constitutions, Constellations, Soyuz, Mirandas, etc; they're all between 250 and 350 meters long with crew sizes between 200 and 500. Notice, however, that we never see any Excelsiors with Constitution style nacelles or Constitutions with Excelsior style nacelles or even saucers. One hundred years later we again see common design elements between the Galaxy and Nebula classes.

Kelvin is considerably bigger than the Constitutions and so are the other ships in the STXI fleet; the upgraded Enterprise is larger still. They're not going to be refitted with Constitution parts; if anything, they'll be refitted with engines from the larger Enterprise.

Also this:

So, Starships of the 2230's were in the normal size range for starships.

Given the size of Vulcan and Andorian ships a hundred years earlier, it doesn't seem the "normal" range for starships ever really changes from century to century. Why would you expect it to anyway, when some of the more advanced space-faring races have already been colonizing the galaxy for centuries before the Federation even existed? In which case, Kelvin and Excelsior would seem to be of about the same class (whatever class that is supposed to be; battleship, maybe?).

 

[Crazy Eddie]

It's just that the detailing on the Kelvin is that of a <300 m ship

I spent an awful lot of time a year ago trying to make both the Enterprise and the Kelvin work at TOS scales and couldn't get it to work. The real problem is the bridge: from the top of the dome to the base of the platform underneath it wouldn't cover the height of the saucer rim; not even close. And the bridge dome is almost certainly a meter or so taller than the actual deck height, which necessitates a two-deck saucer any way you look at it.

Mind you, some elements ARE consistent with 300 meters; the superstructure airlock works just fine (if a little on the small side) situated on B-Deck; trouble is, with the size of the secondary hull the shuttle bay doors would only be one and a half decks, and you'd also have both upper and lower phaser cannons retracting behind armored covers into the same deck where there is not quite enough room to accommodate both of them. Also the lower saucer bulge and the nacelle pylon do not work at the smaller scale either; both would be too small to fit a real deck space but too large to permit reasonable access by crawlspaces. And the biggest problem, of course, is that a 300 meter ship has ZERO chance of housing the number of shuttles seen in the film, nor could that puny secondary hull be made consistent with the interior view of the shuttlebay (or the sets, for that matter).

Whatever possible design intent, Kelvin DOES NOT WORK at 300 meters. And lest we get all dazed and confused over length quotes, the fact is just under half of those 457 meters is the length of that huge warp nacelle behind the impulse engine; the actual saucer is only 250 meters in diameter.

even though she was used on screen without much regard of this.

The on screen usage is canon, unfortunately for you.

 

[F. King Daniel]

The Kelvin isn't in the prime time line. If you want it in the prime timeline you have to ignore the entire series of TOS. Also TNG and DS9 since they show the original Enterprise's bridge (DS9 an entire episode!) It doesn't work. It's pointless to argue how it cannot fit as the gushers will ignore reality.

Sadly all talk about Star Trek history is going to tie into that debate from now on. Lovers of Abrams Trek always wanting to bring up that awful movie and say that a supersized super advanced Kelvin is part of the same universe.

Ignoring the hopelessly outdated look of the TOS sets for a second, recall that 2.5 years after the 5-year mission ended, Starfleet totally changed how everything looked. Obviously it was a total visual retcon under the guise of a refit - bit if they can supposedly do that, 25 years prior is plenty of time to go from the Kelvin look to the TOS one.

Size-wise, who says the TOS-1701 isn't the smaller Intrepid-class equivelent of the 2260's? Or that perhaps, in the Prime universe, Starfleet downsized their frontline ships in the twenty years between the Kelvin and the TOS Enterprise?

 

[Timo]

I spent an awful lot of time a year ago trying to make both the Enterprise and the Kelvin work at TOS scales and couldn't get it to work. The real problem is the bridge: from the top of the dome to the base of the platform underneath it wouldn't cover the height of the saucer rim; not even close. And the bridge dome is almost certainly a meter or so taller than the actual deck height, which necessitates a two-deck saucer any way you look at it.

Ah, but the interior view shows that the bridge wouldn't start from the top of the dome. Rather, even its outer rim (and not just the middle pit) would be sunken a bit into the second tier of the superstructure. This also incidentally means that there could be a long corridor level with the bridge floor, going aft along the spine, as well as all sorts of rooms and turbolift stations in the "doughnut" around the bridge, as the lower positioning would offer extra horizontal space.

Here's a sketch with a really big guy (say, Robau's six-foot-four Brikar Security Chief) standing in front of various features, such as the docking ports or the bridge windows. When he stands so that his upper torso matches the bridge forward windows, he is exactly one deck above the deck where the spine docking port lays.



If that guy were a normal-height fella, the ship could be as small as the Saladin. As matters stand (or more exactly, as that guy stands on the bridge or its surrounding corridors), the ship would work best at about 270 m length. And the saucer rim would be one-deck-plus-utilities, and the saucer would be only about 150 meters across.

It seems pretty clear that the ship was designed to be a certain size, as specified by the spine structures, and that the bridge set was built to match; and that certain other sets were shot as locations without concern as to matching the originally intended size.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[F. King Daniel]

I spent an awful lot of time a year ago trying to make both the Enterprise and the Kelvin work at TOS scales and couldn't get it to work. The real problem is the bridge: from the top of the dome to the base of the platform underneath it wouldn't cover the height of the saucer rim; not even close. And the bridge dome is almost certainly a meter or so taller than the actual deck height, which necessitates a two-deck saucer any way you look at it.

Ah, but the interior view shows that the bridge wouldn't start from the top of the dome. Rather, even its outer rim (and not just the middle pit) would be sunken a bit into the second tier of the superstructure. This also incidentally means that there could be a long corridor level with the bridge floor, going aft along the spine, as well as all sorts of rooms and turbolift stations in the "doughnut" around the bridge, as the lower positioning would offer extra horizontal space.

Here's a sketch with a really big guy (say, Robau's six-foot-four Brikar Security Chief) standing in front of various features, such as the docking ports or the bridge windows. When he stands so that his upper torso matches the bridge forward windows, he is exactly one deck above the deck where the spine docking port lays.



If that guy were a normal-height fella, the ship could be as small as the Saladin. As matters stand (or more exactly, as that guy stands on the bridge or its surrounding corridors), the ship would work best at about 270 m length. And the saucer rim would be one-deck-plus-utilities, and the saucer would be only about 150 meters across.

It seems pretty clear that the ship was designed to be a certain size, as specified by the spine structures, and that the bridge set was built to match; and that certain other sets were shot as locations without concern as to matching the originally intended size.

Timo Saloniemi

Judging by your pic, the bridge windows would be no larger than a car windshield. They're much bigger than that. Also, you're using Richter's inaccurate model that has an incorrect saucer shape (his is a vitually flat) and totally different windows along the spine and saucer rim to what's actually in the movie. Thus using it for analysis of windows and docking ports is futile.

For scale purposes, we can see from the opening flyby that the windows on the bump below the bridge deck are the height of the person standing in one. We can also see corridors inside the windows along the spine of the ship. Both point to a double-diameter saucer.