Starship design history in light of Discovery

[Timo]

I read an article a while ago about how German UBoats were numbered out of sequence on purpose, because if the allies captured U-718 for instance, and the registration was sequential, they would know the Germans had built at least 718 UBoats. I could see starfleet doing something similar with their ship registries.

(Not 100% sure it was the Germans but you get the idea)

I'm not seeing "out of sequence" in the Nazi numbering scheme. However, wartime construction very much involved a "skipping numbers" scheme, with a thousand registries allocated to a specific batch even if barely 400 got built, and the next batch (or subtype, or even all-new class) in turn comprising 300 boats starting at the next even thousand, and so forth.

This might be close to what Starfleet is doing, with the first two digits of a five-digit registry mercilessly rolling over at some set timepoint or whatnot even though construction hasn't yet filled the last three digits up to 999.

The Kriegsmarine number-skipping wasn't rigorously done to provide each new boat type with a nice and round "1 number", either: U-1001 did not differ from U-1000 or U-999, even though U-3001 and U-5001 represented all-new designs. Again, Starfleet might be guilty of this, not every prototype with an initial NX registry having three zeroes or a 001 at the tail end of the registry.

Ultimately, the Nazis constantly adjusted their system to account for changes in production - both utopian fantasies of increased production and realistic downscalings. Again, I see Starfleet doing the same as their strategic position changes (especially as the Klingon threat ebbs and flows). Modern "peacetime" navies may not be good comparison points in any of the above three respects. Although they do account for the one overriding concern: whether it's cool. Which is why the USN chose SSN-21 rather than SSN-774 for the Seawolf, purely to highlight the "this is a future wondersub for the 21st century" thing.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Rahul]

I'm not seeing "out of sequence" in the Nazi numbering scheme. However, wartime construction very much involved a "skipping numbers" scheme, with a thousand registries allocated to a specific batch even if barely 400 got built, and the next batch (or subtype, or even all-new class) in turn comprising 300 boats starting at the next even thousand, and so forth.

This might be close to what Starfleet is doing, with the first two digits of a five-digit registry mercilessly rolling over at some set timepoint or whatnot even though construction hasn't yet filled the last three digits up to 999.

The Kriegsmarine number-skipping wasn't rigorously done to provide each new boat type with a nice and round "1 number", either: U-1001 did not differ from U-1000 or U-999, even though U-3001 and U-5001 represented all-new designs. Again, Starfleet might be guilty of this, not every prototype with an initial NX registry having three zeroes or a 001 at the tail end of the registry.

Ultimately, the Nazis constantly adjusted their system to account for changes in production - both utopian fantasies of increased production and realistic downscalings. Again, I see Starfleet doing the same as their strategic position changes (especially as the Klingon threat ebbs and flows). Modern "peacetime" navies may not be good comparison points in any of the above three respects. Although they do account for the one overriding concern: whether it's cool. Which is why the USN chose SSN-21 rather than SSN-774 for the Seawolf, purely to highlight the "this is a future wondersub for the 21st century" thing.

Timo Saloniemi

Indeed. I think people were projectin waaay to much onto the NCC numbering of Federation vessels. There could be a bazillion reasons for why the numbering is the way it is, that we simply don't know about.

I always think of the Oberth-class starships (like the USS Grissom) as a completely different type of vessels than the "usual" hero ships. In that those are usually heavy armed, and multi-purpose. Wheras we have never seen an Oberth-ship during a battle - they usually get blown away pretty fast.

It be the difference between an aircraft carrier, and a civilian boat that is operated by the Navy. So it would make sense those ships follow a completely different numbering scheme (5 digit, because they probably built a lot more "civilan" starships than military ones) than the "usual" Starfleet ships.

In the same way, the USS Kelvin might simply have been an older ship, where the Federation gave it a three digit number. And then later, they decided ships with that type of mission profile should be grouped in a 4 digit number scheme, so somebody simply painted a zero before the original number.

With stuff like this, real life is usually way less organized and clean than a fictional universe would be. So it's actually pretty realistic that the numbers are all over the place. It's not like stardates - which really should follow a logical scheme. Starship registries is a result of human decisions and retroactive sorting - it should be a mess.

 

[Syd Shanshala]

I'm not seeing "out of sequence" in the Nazi numbering scheme. However, wartime construction very much involved a "skipping numbers" scheme, with a thousand registries allocated to a specific batch even if barely 400 got built, and the next batch (or subtype, or even all-new class) in turn comprising 300 boats starting at the next even thousand, and so forth.

This might be close to what Starfleet is doing, with the first two digits of a five-digit registry mercilessly rolling over at some set timepoint or whatnot even though construction hasn't yet filled the last three digits up to 999.

The Kriegsmarine number-skipping wasn't rigorously done to provide each new boat type with a nice and round "1 number", either: U-1001 did not differ from U-1000 or U-999, even though U-3001 and U-5001 represented all-new designs. Again, Starfleet might be guilty of this, not every prototype with an initial NX registry having three zeroes or a 001 at the tail end of the registry.

Ultimately, the Nazis constantly adjusted their system to account for changes in production - both utopian fantasies of increased production and realistic downscalings. Again, I see Starfleet doing the same as their strategic position changes (especially as the Klingon threat ebbs and flows). Modern "peacetime" navies may not be good comparison points in any of the above three respects. Although they do account for the one overriding concern: whether it's cool. Which is why the USN chose SSN-21 rather than SSN-774 for the Seawolf, purely to highlight the "this is a future wondersub for the 21st century" thing.

Timo Saloniemi

Ahh yes ok I couldn’t remember exactly what was said about the Uboats, glad you can set the record straight. This line of thinking regarding registries certainly makes sense in my head cannon!

 

[DEWLine]

Sequential works. Let's keep it.

 

[cooleddie74]

If you believe some lists of Constitution-class starships at least one of them(the U.S.S. Eagle NCC-956)had a registry number lower than 1000.

 

[F. King Daniel]

Real life contributors to NCC numbers:

Rearranging limited decals of 1, 7, 0 and 1.
Birthdays of JJ Abrams' relatives (Kelvin, Biddeford etc)
Numbers related to ship names (Mayflower, Newton etc)
Including part of someone's phone number (DS9's Defiant)
Bryan Fuller's love of Halloween (Discovery)


...you're all giving this far too much thought.

 

[cooleddie74]

GET OUT.

Either take TBBS seriously the way it was intended or begone with you, heretic!

 

[Christopher]

Real life contributors to NCC numbers:

Rearranging limited decals of 1, 7, 0 and 1...

And those numbers were chosen in the first place because they'd be easy to read onscreen, even from a distance or with a poor broadcast signal.

 

[fireproof78]

Real life contributors to NCC numbers:

Rearranging limited decals of 1, 7, 0 and 1.
Birthdays of JJ Abrams' relatives (Kelvin, Biddeford etc)
Numbers related to ship names (Mayflower, Newton etc)
Including part of someone's phone number (DS9's Defiant)
Bryan Fuller's love of Halloween (Discovery)


...you're all giving this far too much thought.

Yes, but every thing must have an in-universe explanation and rationale otherwise we strike!

 

[Tomalak]

I always think of the Oberth-class starships (like the USS Grissom) as a completely different type of vessels than the "usual" hero ships. In that those are usually heavy armed, and multi-purpose. Wheras we have never seen an Oberth-ship during a battle - they usually get blown away pretty fast.

There was at least one at Wolf 359 - you can see it out of Sisko's window in Emissary. I think there's even one in the background of the Sector 001 battle in First Contact too.

Obviously Starfleet saw some use against the Borg!

 

[XCV330]

There was at least one at Wolf 359 - you can see it out of Sisko's window in Emissary. I think there's even one in the background of the Sector 001 battle in First Contact too.

Obviously Starfleet saw some use against the Borg!

the Oberth's built-in ability to explode upon demand, or prior to demand, or just whenever, makes them unpredictable crewed torpedoes against the Borg and therefore something even the Borg Queen cannot factor into strategy.

 

[Dukhat]

If you believe some lists of Constitution-class starships at least one of them(the U.S.S. Eagle NCC-956)had a registry number lower than 1000.

Canonically, the only 'proof' that the Eagle is Constitution class is a diagram of several ships (all using a Constitution class silhouette), of which the Eagle was one. That doesn't necessarily mean that each ship was a Connie, just that that's the generic shape they used for the diagrams.

There was at least one at Wolf 359 - you can see it out of Sisko's window in Emissary. I think there's even one in the background of the Sector 001 battle in First Contact too.

The one they used in "Emissary" was a reuse of the damaged U.S.S. Vico from TNG. The First Contact model was a low-poly CGI model of the Oberth class that was only used for that movie.

 

[Tuskin38]

Wasn’t there also one in Generations?

 

[cooleddie74]

^
Yep. One of the three starships that arrive at Veridian III to rescue the surviving crew of the Enterprise-D from the surface. It warps away with the Farragut and the Miranda-class starship in the closing moments of the film.

 

[Dukhat]

^
Yep. One of the three starships that arrive at Veridian III to rescue the surviving crew of the Enterprise-D from the surface. It warps away with the Farragut and the Miranda-class starship in the closing moments of the film.

The ironic thing about that shot was that the Oberth model had the name Pegasus and the Miranda had the name Saratoga from the last use of the models in TNG and DS9...two ships that had already been destroyed before that scene!

 

[cooleddie74]

I didn't know that!

 

[137th Gebirg]

Me neither... Learn something new every day!

Anyone know what they were supposed to be called? Memory Alpha lists them both as "unnamed" and only the Nebula-class Farragut was called-out.

 

[Dukhat]

Me neither... Learn something new every day!

Anyone know what they were supposed to be called? Memory Alpha lists them both as "unnamed" and only the Nebula-class Farragut was called-out.

Yeah, officially they’re ‘unnamed’ since they couldn’t knowingly use the names that were actually printed on the models.

 

[137th Gebirg]

Well, sure, I was just wondering if they were given names, like, in early drafts of the script or in the novelization or something. The miniatures were filmed in such a way that the viewer couldn't see the incorrect names clearly (intentionally, I'm sure, based on reasons previously assigned) so any other names could be designated without allowing much visual scrutiny.

MA does give mention of the unnamed Oberth in Generations in some book:

The TNG eBook, Slings and Arrows: "The Insolence of Office", gives this ship's name as the USS Trosper

Curious if this name was based on any official source, or if a similar "soft canon" name was given to the Miranda.

 

[cooleddie74]

I could be mistaken but when we see the Hood rendezvous with the Enterprise-D in "Encounter at Farpoint, Part I(TNG)" it may literally be the Excelsior shooting model from the two most recent films with the NX-2000 registry still on the hull, but the model was shot at an angle where the movie registry wasn't legible.