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Starship design history in light of Discovery

Eaves does not make it clear whether he thinks the TOS ship should be newer or older than his DSC ships, but some of the text hints at the former. Which may of course be "true", in-universe, but then all these even-older-than-Pike's ships would be odd recipients for the new drive the anticipation of which dictates the square nacelles, while Pike misses out.

The "true true" story behind the ships may once again turn out to be quite contrary to creator intent... Perhaps NCC-1701 simply is a relic from the "round times", while boxy is the New Normal that leads to the rounded-flattened-boxy of the TOS movies and then to the even-more-rounded-flattened-the-other-way boxy of TNG?

Timo Saloniemi
 
If we accept that she will be refit into Kirk's, then round nacelles won't be seen as an incongruity in the 2260s.

Or else, during the refit, maybe they didn't see it as necessary to install the boxy nacelles, just re-clad them?

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Constitution Type 1 - Consitution Sub-Class

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Constitution Type 2 - Lexington Sub-Class

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Constitution Type 3 - Yorktown Sub-Class


Until there is any further clarification on the timeline, I choose to continue to treat what happens on screen as a coherent visual record, as was established in older Star Treks like DS9 and ENT. I accept the old definition of continuity that has been used by all the Encyclopaedic material up to this point; visual continuity is actual continuity. This would however invalidate one episode: "The Cage", and also any footage of "The Cage" from "The Menagerie" Part 1 and Part 2. This is what Pike's Enterprise, itself different from Kirk's, looked like some two years before Discovery:

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It would probably be too far-fetched to say that the Enterprise was refit first from this sub-class, then into the one from DSC, and then back to TOS again, unless "The Cage" didn't take place where it was generally accept to take place, i.e. before DSC, but instead some time after. Going back to the original post, my guess for the design history would be something like this:

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Generation 0 - Transition Earth Starfleet/Federation Starfleet Design

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Generation 1 - Transition Earth Starfleet/Federation Starfleet Design

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Generation 2 - Bonaventure (First Federation Starfleet Ship)

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Generation 3 - From the Pacific 201 Fanfilm (Love the Realism)

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Generation 4 - The Baton Rouge Class from Beta Canon

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Generation 5 - Starfleet Ships from the Kelvin Timeline

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Generation 6 - A New Approach to Warp Nacelle Designs

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Generation 7 - The Ships and Beta Canon Ships of TOS

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Generation 8 - The Ships from Battle of the Binary Stars

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Generation 9 - The Ships from The Motion Picture Era

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Generation 10 - The Ships from the Excelsior Class Era


Comments are welcome if you feel a different order is more appropriate. The era around the Shenzhou, Enterprise and Discovery is probably the most unclear. Designs don't necessarily need to look like a transition, because in real life, multiple avenues of design are cultivated simultaneously in military technology.
 
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I rather favor the idea that the TOS ship indeed is a relic in the 2250s-60s, skipping the boxy phase and going straight for the next one - perhaps because only the limitations of the Organian Peace Treaty on newbuilding would make Starfleet desperate enough to modernize even the small, ancient Constitutions. (Their public image might make them a good choice among "small and ancient", of course.)

Anything done to the ship between Pike and Kirk would then be cosmetics, treading the water, that sort of stuff. Which means I may squint a bit and say the DSC look was there in "The Cage" (but with the taller bridge, Bussard spikes and so forth), and for Kirk the ship just received a paint job that essentially hides all the DSC detail sufficiently to give the TOS one.

The extra pylon elements might be temporary, to brace an old ship's poor bairns between overhauls. The shorter neck... might have been there, and then stretched for TOS. Lucky how few shots we get in "The Cage" overall. :devil:. And lucky how the ship is more or less designed to be redone bit by bit, component by component.

It is the other ships, the "DSC natives", that warrant the big refits. And indeed they may be the result of previous rounds of major upgrades, being essentially "upgraded G5" in above terms, and now maxed out and fit to be scrapped. That way, their low registries also fall in line...

Timo Saloniemi
 
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The only thing about the Constitutions being too small or ancient is that they seem to be a prestigious posting (DSC quote), and Kirk talks with considerable pride about how there are only 12 like her in the fleet (TOS quote), sort of implying they are a notable class (he may have been referring to only his subclass). Additionally, I seem to remember a quote from either TNG, DS9 or VOY about how Kirk discovered more planets than anyone up to that time. Considering how big Starfleet likely is, it suggests they were in some way very efficient explorer ships.

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I don't generally like to mention Axanar because of the controversy, but I quite like the order of Klingon design history they came up with. They seem to place the Raptor-class as an early battlecruiser (perhaps relegated to a scout later in it's long lifespan). They place John Eaves unused D4 class next. Then the D5 class from Enterprise. Then a new D6 class design that looks nicely transitory, and slightly resembles the Kelvin battlecruiser. Then the D7. Say, if you wanted to also fit the Kelvin battlecruiser in, it could be a variant of the D6 or D7, or maybe a D8. Then again, maybe the D-classifications are Vulcan designations and actually have no relation to the age of a design, and are instead what order the Vulcans encountered Klingon designs in (like M-class from the Vulcan word Minshara). I have no clue in hell how the Klingon fleet of Discovery would fit into this pretty good design history, maybe privately-built non-military ships. Maybe something like this:

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Generation 3

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Generation 4

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Generation 5

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Generation 6

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Generation 7

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Generation 8

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Civilian design, owned by a private Great House, from Generation 8?

In terms of where these ships line up with the Starfleet ones above, I would guess the D7, which we (unfortunately) saw on screen in Enterprise was a contemporary to the NX, i.e. generation 1 of Starfleet, but was refit repeatedly (maybe a half-dozen times between 2156 and the Dominion War) with new technology, being an especially robust and adaptable space frame. That would make the D5 rougly a contemporary of the Daedalus class or something, but of course, as in real life, technology might progress at different speeds depending on the political and scientific environment; I imagine Romulan and Klingon starship research went much faster after competition with the scientifically innovative Federation, but may have been stagnant before that, and that the D7 was much more advanced than the NX.

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But in terms of fan films, I rather mention the far less controversial Pacific 201, by EC Henry, who does some of the best Star Trek and Star Wars analysis on YouTube. I agree with his philosophy of making the first ships of the Federation look really really grounded in current science, they look much more like a NASA spacecraft, except in 22nd century form. The USS Pacific with it's smooth white hull, greeblies and visible antennae looks great I think. Dunno how the film will turn out, but the design was really well thought out and looks ship-like with a conning tower. Pictured here with a refit NX-class and Daedalus-class, also given smooth hulls in refit.
 
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visual continuity is actual continuity
I like this idea. Taking it a little further (and in a slightly odd direction but go with it for now), let’s assume that what we’ve seen of the Enterprise in TOS implies a ship that can have its configuration changed for specific mission purposes.

How many times in TOS did we see the Enterprise change between ball nacelle caps and a grille? In the same episode. We also saw the Enterprise have spikes on the nacelles and no illumation on the bussard collectors, a larger bridge dome, and a larger deflector dish in one flyby, then a smaller dish, smaller bridge dome, illumnated spikeless nacelles in another.

Taking visual continuity literally, let’s assume that the changes introduced by reusing stock footage are physical changes to the Enterprise that actually happened in those episodes. Given that starships seem to be modular and built to be interchangeable, it would make sense for individual bits of ships to change config (like the Abrams ship’s dish that expands when going to warp etc) and this could explain the differences in the DSC version of the Enterprise.

I maintain that the DSC Enterprise is perfectly capable of looking like it does in the cage and wnmhgb and into TOS. It just doesn’t in DSC because it’s in combat mode.

Or it’s a poor romulan facsimile and the first line of dialogue in s2 will be “hey... that’s not what the Enterprise looks like...”
 
In my head cannon I kept thinking the Discovery actually had 3 full nacelles inside each housing, and that the ships of that era could achieve high warp speeds by literally just cramming lots of warp nacelles into these square frames. So Eaves saying that he himself believes there are round nacelles in the square housings solves every problem I had with the ships, while also making the Connies seem more prestigious as they perhaps represent the most efficient tech available. The longer Ive looked at the disco ships the more I see them as a true continuation of the ENT aesthetic.

I play the harmonica. The only way I can play is if I get my car going really fast, and stick it out the window. I put a new engine in my car, but forgot to take the old one out. Now my car goes 500 miles per hour. The harmonica
sounds *amazing*. -- Steven Wright
 
How many times in TOS did we see the Enterprise change between ball nacelle caps and a grille? In the same episode. We also saw the Enterprise have spikes on the nacelles and no illumation on the bussard collectors, a larger bridge dome, and a larger deflector dish in one flyby, then a smaller dish, smaller bridge dome, illumnated spikeless nacelles in another.

To nitpick, we didn't see the bridge dome change size within an ep. (Except in the transition to Mirror universe, but I don't think that should count.) The ubiquitous "approaching red planet, suddenly jumping a bit sideways" aft view is from an angle that hides the dome dimensions.

But yes, I'm sure the ship actually retracts the diffuser endcaps of the nacelle to reveal the plasma purging vents when dropping out of warp and establishing orbit around planets, red or otherwise. That is, if the engineer feels the need to purge. And yes, the front deflector spires only extend when the ramscoops suck in the upper atmospheric gases of a suitable planet. Or, say, sample the mysterious swirls of Galactic Barrier mystery matter.

...and this could explain the differences in the DSC version of the Enterprise. I maintain that the DSC Enterprise is perfectly capable of looking like it does in the cage and wnmhgb and into TOS. It just doesn’t in DSC because it’s in combat mode.

Oh, I wouldn't go quite that far. Retracting that neck must be a pain in the... neck.

Or it’s a poor romulan facsimile and the first line of dialogue in s2 will be “hey... that’s not what the Enterprise looks like...”

Or then it will have changed to a more cagey version and no dialogue ever touches upon the issue. Save at most for indicating it is touchy.

Timo Saloniemi
 
we didn't see the bridge dome change size within an ep
Rats. Ok that suggests a different bridge module - but given that the 1701D seemed to have a new module once a year (more if you believe books like “rouge saucer” - which is awesome if you’ve not read it) then I’m ok with the Connie having easily swappable bridge domes.

But yes, I'm sure the ship actually retracts the diffuser endcaps of the nacelle to reveal the plasma purging vents when dropping out of warp and establishing orbit around planets, red or otherwise.
They probably won’t but I’d love them to actually show this on DSC.

Retracting that neck must be a pain in the... neck.
:lol:
No bobbing for space apples in DSC then haha!
 
Hm, looking at this comparison, the DSC Connie's pylons are not actually angled as far back as the Refit's.

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Pike just liked having the cladding removed from the empty spaces in the middle of the pylons to reduce mass and give his ship that trendy cafe-racer look. When he was done deciding who lives and who dies he'd sometimes pull into a starbase and challenge other captains "do you even ride?"
 
Pike just liked having the cladding removed from the empty spaces in the middle of the pylons to reduce mass and give his ship that trendy cafe-racer look. When he was done deciding who lives and who dies he'd sometimes pull into a starbase and challenge other captains "do you even ride?"
Maybe the gap means that Pike can make the Kessel Run in less than 12 parsecs :o
 
Not sure if this fits the topic of the thread, but the ISS Shenzhou had a Terran emblem on the top of its saucer. it is really hard to see as we get zero shots of her from above.

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Eaglemoss's Mirror Shenzhou for comparison
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I still don't understand why They made it a Brass Color.
It's kinda wonky to me.
:shrug:
You'd have to ask Bryan Fuller.

He told John Eaves and the other ship designers to stay away from the lighter hull colours of the TOS Connie.

I believe he also specified the bronze/brass colour for the Discovery.
 
Yes, the booklet from Eaglemoss says the color was chosen by Bryan Fuller. He just wanted something different. It's like the nacelles, he specifically said he did not want round nacelles.
 
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