StarShip Classifications in your Head Cannon!

Discussion in 'Trek Tech' started by KamenRiderBlade, Nov 24, 2018.

  1. Mres_was_framed!

    Mres_was_framed! Lieutenant Commander Red Shirt

    Joined:
    Nov 5, 2018
    This since Captain R.M. Merrick was apparently part of some merchant-marine type organization, this might be a case of "Star Ship" just meaning "important Star Fleet Ship" as I mentioned above. As in, Kirk commands a ship that consists of a special crew on a special exploratory mission. Not special like the special honor that the Enterprise is in TNG (flagship designation, and that whole consideration), but special just because it is a "Star Ship".
     
  2. J.T.B.

    J.T.B. Rear Admiral Premium Member

    Joined:
    Jun 14, 2005
    In the STTMP novel Rodenberry specifically stated that "heavy cruiser" was a more acceptable term for what might otherwise be called a battleship.
     
  3. Shamrock Holmes

    Shamrock Holmes Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

    Joined:
    Jun 30, 2009
    I think heavy cruiser=battleship doesn't really work. There is some overlap between the old armoured cruiser, the heavy cruiser and the battlecruiser though. That the Connie (notionally a heavy cruiser) was roughly equivalent to a Klingon battlecruiser supports this.
     
  4. KamenRiderBlade

    KamenRiderBlade Captain Captain

    Joined:
    Oct 24, 2012
    Battle-Cruiser by definition should have BattleShip level fire power with Cruiser like hull / armor / agility.

    That's the definition of a historical "Battle-Cruiser"
     
    SolarisOne likes this.
  5. Ithekro

    Ithekro Vice Admiral Admiral

    Joined:
    Apr 5, 2012
    Location:
    Republic of California
    There are also "Large Cruisers" which were an American named ship type to make them not associated with the out of favor battlecruiser. This was the Alaska-class. Armed with 12 inch guns in an age when new battleships were armed with 16 inch guns, and treaty defined heavy cruisers were armed with 8 inch guns. They were a middle road ship. They were not able to take on battleships effectively. They were not armored all that well. They were fast. They were designed as either carrier escorts or cruiser-hunters. Able to track and run down any heavy cruiser afloat, and even the German "pocket battleships" (Deutschland-class) which were technically modern armored cruisers armed with 11 inch guns.

    The Germans also has a "battlecruiser" that was armed with 11 inch guns, because that's what they had ready when they were finished...their 15 inch guns came out a few years later, and there was a plan to rearm them with the twin 15 inch turrets to replace their triple 11 inch turrets, but this was cancelled. These ships (Scharnhorst-class) were battleship armored and relatively fast, but had cruiser killing guns that would not be up to the task of taking on properly armored battleships.

    Armored cruisers were typically built like battleships. Armed with 7-10 inch guns (though some had 12 inch guns) and were usually faster than the battleships built at the same time as they were. These ships were heavily armored to fight in the battle line against other armored cruisers, or hunt down smaller cruisers. They, like the later battlecruisers, where intended to be part of the scouting forces for the main battle fleets.

    Battlecruisers were suppose to be a large, fast, well armed version of a battleship on a cruiser hull. They were designed for scouting purposes. They were to be able sink nearly anything they couldn't outrun, and outrun anything they couldn't sink. They were not designed to fight in the main battle line, but most admirals and captains tended to forget about this in battle because they often had large enough guns to sink enemy battleships.

    "Heavy" and "Light" cruisers were Washington and London Treaty names for restricted tonnage cruisers based on the size of their guns. Up to 155mm guns were light cruisers, over that and up to 210mm guns were heavy cruisers. Treaty limited cruisers to 10,000 tons. and gave each signing country a limited amount of tonnage the could keep or build. Countries that did not sign this treaty could build bigger cruisers with larger guns, but most that fit the general classifications were still called heavy cruisers. Especially those built post-treaty that were heavier than 10,000 tons, but tended to stil used up to 210mm guns.
     
  6. Timo

    Timo Fleet Admiral Admiral

    Joined:
    Aug 26, 2003
    That the German ships that favored protection and speed over firepower should be called "battlecruisers" is a British conceit, much like the "pocket battleship", not a German one. Since the British were the ones to dream up the battlecruiser in the first place, it's probably their prerogative to define the term and its applications. But this means that two opposites meet the criteria: the German ships as completed (without the heavy guns and with the armor), and the British ships as intended and completed (with the heavy guns and without the armor). What the Germans intended does not figure in how the British applied the term. And of course they similarly slighted the assorted French battleships with the designation on occasion as well.

    No fear of misuse of the term in any context, then - the British already preemted that for good.

    But old naval designations long abandoned may see reuse that relates little to the original usage. The British resurrected "sloop" and "frigate" for their WWII escorts, and the latter now lives on in a role that probably couldn't be more dissimilar to what "frigate" meant until the late 19th century. Starfleet's "heavy cruiser" could well be their battleship if it comes to that. But then again, Starfleet also believes in battleships, namely those of others, and those are giants compared to Starfleet's biggests. So probably not.

    Timo Saloniemi
     
  7. KamenRiderBlade

    KamenRiderBlade Captain Captain

    Joined:
    Oct 24, 2012
    Funny you should mention "Sloop" Timo
    I reuse the term for my various standardized 'Auxilary Vessel Types & Classes' in my Head Cannon

    Ranging from:
    - Smallest -
    Type CMU (Cargo Management Unit): WorkBee Class
    Type PEV (Personal Exploration Vehicle): Skiff Class
    Type PUC (Personal Utility Craft): Sloop Class
    Type SUV (Space Utility Vehicle): Schooner Class
    Type TUF (Transport Utility Flyer): Clipper Class
    Type ASE (Advanced Situations & Environments): Delta Class
    Type EMR (Extended Missions that RunAbout): Missouri Class
    - Largest -
     
  8. Shamrock Holmes

    Shamrock Holmes Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

    Joined:
    Jun 30, 2009
    The only 'in script' references to 'battleships' in dialogue refer to both the 'large' Jem'hadar warship and the 'supership' from "Valiant", the Krenim timeship, and two militarized verrsions of the Galaxy-class (in "Yesterday's Enterprise" and "Conundrum"). 'Battlecruiser' appears only once (refering to the D7/K'Tinga) but 'battle cruiser' is usually several times to describe various Klingon warships including D7/K'Tinga's & Vor'cha [also known as attack cruisers], Romulan D'Deridex, and an unindentified Cardassian type (probably not the familiar Galor which are either destroyers or cruisers).
     
  9. Shamrock Holmes

    Shamrock Holmes Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

    Joined:
    Jun 30, 2009
    How would this compare to say the Runabout or the Raven-type (possibly Aerie-class) surveyor?
     
  10. KamenRiderBlade

    KamenRiderBlade Captain Captain

    Joined:
    Oct 24, 2012
    [​IMG]
    Type of Auxilliary Vessels: Dimensions in meters
    Type CMU: LxWxH = 3.3m x 2.0m x 2.0m
    Type PEV: LxWxH = 6.0m x 3.0m x 2.0m
    Type PUC: LxWxH = 5.0m x 3.0m x 3.5m
    Type SUV: LxWxH = 8.5m x 5.0m x 3.5m
    Type TUF: LxWxH = 10.9m x 10.0m x 3.5m
    Type ASE: LxWxH = 21.0m x 13.0m x 6.0m
    Type EMR: LxWxH = 35.0m x 16.0m x 6.0m

    My Standardized Auxxiliary Vessel Pallet
    1x Auxilliary Vessel Pallet is LxWxH = 36.0 x 17.0 x 7.0 meters; (Pallet is 0.25 meters thick)
    NOTE: It's designed to handle vessel up to 7 meters tall
    The slots for the AVP needs to be LxWxH = 37.0 x 18.0 x 8.0 meters for each Pallet to reside in

    By the start of the 26th Century (Earth Date: 2501/01-01), the Aerie-Class or Raven-Type that you knew has been updated dramatically and are known as Private Civilian Vessels designed by the UFP & StarFleet and sold to Civillian's as a beginners StarShip for a small group of people who want to be entrepreneus that want to make a living for themselves out on the frontier all on their own. The updated vessel fits the same dimensions as it's predecessor, just with much more efficient use of it's volume / bounding box on the major LxWxH dimensions.

    It's now known as the:
    Type: Chisel
    Class: "Tabula Rasa"
    LxWxH: 90 meters x 40 meters x 22 meters

    Type PUC: has a small cargo hold of LxWxH = 3.0m x 2.0m x 2.5m
    I've seen IRL Pickup Trucks with larger cargo beds then that.

    Type EMR: is the updated RunAbout for the start of the 26th century, it's outter dimensions is roughly the same as the 24th century RunAbout but the internal volume and systems have been drastically updated.
     
    Last edited: Feb 23, 2019
  11. Gabriel

    Gabriel Captain Captain

    Joined:
    Dec 15, 2018
    well for me its

    Battleship (federation real never hd any of these
    battle cruiser (again feds don't really use this but Akira may count as one)
    heavy cruiser (most powerful in starfleet)
    cruiser - 1/2 of a heavy cruiser
    light cruiser of 1/2 a cruiser
    frigate- 1/2 of a cruiser destroyer_ starfeet really doesn't use this but the defiant would count.
    Scout (1/4 of a frigate)
    fighter (pretty weak)
    starship is interchangeable with any of these
     
  12. Shamrock Holmes

    Shamrock Holmes Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

    Joined:
    Jun 30, 2009
    Agreed.

    Possibly, mostly based on BTS data, the Prometheus-class - despite relatively modest size is probably a better example in firepower terms (to the extent that battlecruiser (mostly a European thing) is different from an American heavy cruiser (hull-coded as an "attack cruiser").

    True.

    Largely equivalent to a battlecruiser, but more balanced towards non-defense applications, probably greater range and endurance.

    Honestly, in space terms is mostly likely to be technical advancement than anything else that disambiguates these (the previous (battle)cruiser design is "demoted" to CL when the new one comes online). However, the closest comparable we have in canon (the Connie (heavy) cruiser [equivalent to a Klingon battlecruiser] and the Miranda light cruiser are broadly equivalent offensively speaking (the Reliant-subtype may actually be more heavily armed, unlike say the Soyuz (recon?), Lantree (reserve logistics) and Saratoga II (generalist)) so it might be a "speed and/or endurance thing" due to significantly reduced fuel tankerage space on the Miranda.

    Pretty much. Definately something of a "moving target" label - the Connie was a (heavy)cruiser for it's era, but the broadly size equivalent New Orleans and Intrepid-classes are more likely to be the frigates of theirs.

    Frigates may also be somewhat more weighted towards a particular specialism than the big ships.

    Complicated due to multiple contradictory meanings of "destroyer".

    Guided Missile Destroyer - basically a cruiser with somewhat depreciated "flagship" capacity.
    Destroyer Escort - Classified as Frigates by the RN (and the USN post-70s)
    Escort Destroyer - Dedicated ASW platform [no real parallel in space terms].
    Torpedo Boat Destroyer - fast, long range escort vessels, mostly use torpedoes for offense, defensive guns. Defiant is largely trying to be this.
    Torpedo Boat - relatively slow, short-to-medium range, carries both torpedoes and dual purpose guns (up to 5"). Defiant mostly sits here (crossed with the monitor). The Raider-type is either this or TBD.

    Yup.

    Mostly with frigates and above IMO, but "technology marches on" will effect this.
     
    Gabriel likes this.
  13. Gabriel

    Gabriel Captain Captain

    Joined:
    Dec 15, 2018
    Yeah I have a problem with other sci-fi shows showing fighter craft being so powerful because when you really think about it you can’t really be that powerful. Since they are pretty small
     
    Henoch likes this.
  14. Timo

    Timo Fleet Admiral Admiral

    Joined:
    Aug 26, 2003
    It all depends on their weaponry, I guess. A small aircraft fifty years ago could deliver a bigger and deadlier armor-piercing grenade farther and faster than a big gun mounted on a giant ship could. In Trek, there's little evidence of small craft being capable of delivering great firepower, though: they achieve nothing against big ships in the battle of "Sacrifice of Angels", being only expended as a psychological weapon.

    Which is a bit odd, since they supposedly could do the exact same thing aircraft in WWII did - to lob the projectile of a battleship weapon to its target without needing to involve the battleship there. A photon torpedo is a photon torpedo is a photon torpedo, regardless of the platform firing it, right? We see no evidence of big accelerator cannon in the big ships as such: the torps just lazily swim out of those tubes, moving no faster than stuff dropped off from a fightercraft.

    Timo Saloniemi
     
    Gabriel likes this.
  15. Unicron

    Unicron Boss Monster Mod Moderator

    Joined:
    May 8, 2003
    Location:
    One Small Step
    Well, I wouldn't say they achieve nothing in the big fleet battle, although we don't get enough to see if they do anything truly substantial. There's at least one Cardassian ship that takes significant damage, enough to make it lose attitude control (0:32), and the Maquis fighters in "Preemptive Strike" seemed to be doing a number on Gul Evek's ship since they presumably surprised it.

     
  16. Timo

    Timo Fleet Admiral Admiral

    Joined:
    Aug 26, 2003
    Then again, giant gasoline explosions on the surface are the DS9 way of saying "shields holding, no damage", at least from S4 on. And the moment where that Galor appears to sustain damage is also the moment the Cardassians start faking a reaction to the attack fighters, as per Dukat's plan...

    Timo Saloniemi
     
  17. STR

    STR Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

    Joined:
    Sep 27, 2009
    Location:
    Out there. Thatta way.
    The Soviet/Russian Kirov class are often (if not officially) referred to as battlecruisers. The term, broadly, refers to large surface combatants lacking the extensive armor of a battleship. Bigger than a normal cruiser, but not a battleship, equals battlecruiser.

    Each country that constructed CB's termed them differently and designed them for slightly different missions. As such, you have to step back and evaluate the group as a whole using the least common denominator. Which, is a large not-battleship.

    The German vessels were dedicated commerce raiders. The British take was cheaper ships of the line (superceded by the fast battleship). The Japanese strait up turned their battlecruisers into fast battleships between the wars. The only CB's America completed really were large cruisers with slightly heavier armament.
     
    Last edited: Apr 15, 2019
  18. Timo

    Timo Fleet Admiral Admiral

    Joined:
    Aug 26, 2003
    Regarding the Kirovs, the Soviets called them "Atomic(powered) Rocketry Cruisers" simply because the word Cruiser for them was synonymous with Biggest Ship, in a systematic scale starting with Cutter and proceeding through Small and Large to Cruiser. It had abolutely nothing to do with the "cruiser mission" that until WWII had still been an important element of naval warfare and involved scouting and commerce warfare (raiding and protection) as well as token presence at distant stations.

    For all we know, the Federation feels the same way, and Cruiser is not a mission designation of any sort, but a measure of size. On one hand, no other designation in Starfleet is known to refer to size; on the other, none is known NOT to. And even though Cruiser is a commonly heard designation and covers ships of all sizes, the newer ones are a) bigger than old ones and b) the biggest of the any-designation-flaunting ships of the day, suggesting the size definition could hold for any given era.

    Then there's the other type of Cruiser, the puny civilian pleasure craft such as the Aurora of TOS or Sarek's ride in DSC. But civilian terminology would be expected to exist in parallel with Starfleet terminology.

    Timo Saloniemi
     
  19. Unicron

    Unicron Boss Monster Mod Moderator

    Joined:
    May 8, 2003
    Location:
    One Small Step
    As I recall, the FASA Trekverse had a size classification based on a vessel's mass, though given that FASA stats tended to be a tad wonky that might not be the most reliable system. :D A somewhat similar system is used in modern Battletech, with a ship's designation linked to its gross mass as well as its intended mission profile more or less.
     
  20. Gabriel

    Gabriel Captain Captain

    Joined:
    Dec 15, 2018
    Well I base mine off the system today’s navies use. I mean not word for word but I did use them as references since technically things like frigate heavy cruiser are typically warship designations.