star's Journey into the World of DS9...

[Quinton O'Connor]

Oh, star, I was talking about "Whispers". It's oft-heralded as a classic, and it received one of my highest reviews of the second season; it's one of those cases where I went into it expecting to find things to unravel the heightened threads, but couldn't. I thought the revelation at the end was good -- a real powerful homage to some terrific stories of yesteryear.

Watching it a second time is especially interesting; seeing why everyone is acting out-of-character around the O'Brien Replicant and whatnot is quite fascinating.

 

[star]

Sorry guys. Whispers didn't do it for me. It was interesting, but slow and I felt like I got seriously gipped at the end. The replicant thing didn't bother me so much as it was basically 1 minute at the end where they wrapped everything up and not to my satisfaction. For me it was a ginormous build up to nothing. Yep. I was extremely dissatisfied.

But again, sometimes I'm going to be going against the grain and have you all going . LOL

Later today, I might get to the last two episodes I have left (before Netflix has to send me more).

 

[Quinton O'Connor]

Oh yeah, if everyone's opinions were identical, these review threads would be a lot less interesting. :P

 

[TheGodBen]

And since I tend to tow the party line a lot, that's why I need weird images to keep my review threads interesting.

 

[star]

Paradise
♥♥♥♥♥♥---- (6/10)

The good: Sisko crawling back into the box. I was actually cheering him on.

The bad: The ending (will go into further detail in the summary).

The zany: There are universal laws: An unusually large man is always nicknamed "Tiny." When you're running late for work, you will hit every red light. And if an episode is named "Paradise" it will be anything but.

Summary: I don't know what it is about this show and bad endings lately. Until the last couple of minutes, this episode was getting a solid 8/10 from me. It made me feel uncomfortable, but in the right way. When Sisko refused to fall prey to Alixus' manipulations -- even to make things easier on O'Brien and himself while they were waiting to be rescued -- I was so pleased.

But here's the rub: Alixus basically kidnapped these people and held them against their will. She got rid of the doors... why? To keep people from conspiring against her, no doubt. She makes them work their derrieres off so they have too little time or energy to meditate on their situation -- under the guise of discovering their "cores." She lets people suffer and die when she has the means to save them (or at least the last one). Oh and let's not forget how she whores that chick to try and get Sisko to be more sympathetic to their "chosen" lifestyle. And yet not a single member feels angry, violated, used etc when her subterfuge is discovered. It was clear that none of them had originally signed on to start a technology-free colony. It felt disingenuous that all of the people would say, "You may have stranded us here and taken away our free will (because anyone who doesn't tow the party line is severely punished), but you know what? We're so glad you did!"



Shadowplay
♥♥♥♥♥♥---- (6/10)

The good: FINALLY!! Bareil & Kira smooching! *happy dance* I know that nothing is going to come of the two of them... but at least some of that immense sexual tension had someplace to go this time. Don't mistake this as actual 'shippage on my part. I wanted some kind of closure with them and the make-out session will work well enough for me.

The bad: The A-plot was pretty dull and predictable. I had the villagers pegged as holograms as soon as the words "no one leaves the valley" were spoken.

The zany: I'm gonna start wearing beads on my head. That just looks so cool.

Summary: I enjoyed the Ben/Jake stuff (along with O'Brien). I actually liked the interaction between Odo and the little girl. (Though the Data/little boy moments from Insurrection come to mind as well. Which one was first?) It was pretty so-so otherwise. Nice to hear the Dominion mentioned again. I really wanna know more about those folks. Other than changelings, Jem'Hadar and the war, I really don't know much about that group. I'm looking forward to seeing it developed. Also Odo's little speech about what is real was pretty cool... though again, Data comes to mind (remember the trial to determine whether he was a sentient being?).

Really, though, I liked the Kira/Bareil exchange. The way he looks at her.... "I'll be in my bunk." *runs off to find husband* (Pathetic? Perhaps, but I ain't apologizing for it!)

I've got a few days before the next disks arrive. In the meantime I'm told that I must check out Dr. Who. (Netflix is apparently streaming the first 4 seasons online).

 

[C_Miller]

No, there is no doubt that Paradise is not the best executed episode of all time. It suffers from some of the problems I had with TNG. It offers really heavy moral questions, yet doesn't come close to offering the development that is needed to really tackle these issues (and of course the planet is never mentioned again). Anywho, yes Alixus is a total bitch. I don't think there's anyone who sides with her (although it was the original plan of the writers to make her sympathetic).

But, I can sympathize with the people who decided to stay. They had been there for a long time. They had kids on that planet. Even if it was created through a lie, it was still their home. Similar to the Maquis. Yes in a galaxy with infinite planets, I'm sure you can find something that is exactly like the old one without any differences. However, it is not attached to all the good memories and histories of the old one. People tend to underestimate how important "space" is for people. Space is more than just a geographical location that you occupy. I am from Rochester, NY. It's not the world's most unique city in the world. In fact, I'm pretty sure I could find similar things in any midwest mid-sized city. But Rochester is in my blood, much in the same way that this planet was in their's. They built their community and it became a part of them.I don't think I would have left if I was in their shoes.

I'm sure they were angry and yes, the show probably could have dealt with that better, but that was still their community.

 

[Gul Re'jal]

I didn't like the ending of Paradise either.

I can understand that those people live there for ten years, which is a log time, and some/many would decide to stay in spite of the truth coming out, but I don't believe ALL would choose to stay and forgive. Some of those people surely had some family somewhere else, some ties to things somewhere else and they had been cut off for a long time by one woman who felt like she had a right to rule their lives and force them to live her way.

I just don't buy it. Some people would be pissed off, some of pissed off might choose to stay anyway, but not all. And surely not everyone would smile idiotically and say "oh, never mind, let's' forget about it".

 

[Admiral Shran]

Paradise
♥♥♥♥♥♥---- (6/10)

Summary: But here's the rub: Alixus basically kidnapped these people and held them against their will. She got rid of the doors... why? To keep people from conspiring against her, no doubt. She makes them work their derrieres off so they have too little time or energy to meditate on their situation -- under the guise of discovering their "cores." She lets people suffer and die when she has the means to save them (or at least the last one). Oh and let's not forget how she whores that chick to try and get Sisko to be more sympathetic to their "chosen" lifestyle. And yet not a single member feels angry, violated, used etc when her subterfuge is discovered. It was clear that none of them had originally signed on to start a technology-free colony. It felt disingenuous that all of the people would say, "You may have stranded us here and taken away our free will (because anyone who doesn't tow the party line is severely punished), but you know what? We're so glad you did!"

Couldn't have said it better myself. It's the reason why this episode is one of my least favorites of the entire series. I mean come on - I can understand that some of them would become truly attached to the place, but ALL of them. I don't think so. If the episode had ended with just one of the villagers leaving - how about the guy Alixus put in the box for crying out loud - it would have at least been passable.

Like you said, it dropped two hearts due to that. For me it drops the episode about six to seven hearts.

Shadowplay
♥♥♥♥♥♥---- (6/10)

Summary: I enjoyed the Ben/Jake stuff (along with O'Brien). I actually liked the interaction between Odo and the little girl. (Though the Data/little boy moments from Insurrection come to mind as well. Which one was first?)

This was first. Insurrection was released during DS9's seventh season. TNG was still in it's seven season at this point.

Other than that, all I have to say about this episode is - ENT: Oasis.

 

[flemm]

I agree that the ending of Paradise leaves much to be desired. The settlers' reaction is simply too uniform and too matter-of-fact to be convincing. It's a case where another well-written supporting character or two would have been needed to give the settlement a stronger identity. This would have helped bring diverse reactions to the fore at the end without having to create new characters on the spot.

I have to say I like this episode quite a bit, though. It gives Sisko his strongest material since probably In the Hands of the Prophets at the end of season 1. And, most importantly, it does one of the things DS9 does best, which is challenge Federation dogma and ask the question: is this perfect future really as perfect as we are led to believe? Is being surrounded by magic technology and eating out of replicators really the most satisfying life for a human being?

This type of thinking leads to a lot of great episodes on DS9 and a lot interesting little details (like replicated food being less flavorful and desirable than the real deal), so I appreciate what the writers did here despite the fact that the episode tries a little too hard to sympathize with Alixus at the end.

The settlers either have to react more strongly against their captor once she is revealed as such, or we have to see more evidence of the positive impact of this new lifestyle, whereas the episode focuses heavily on Alixus' manipulation and control of the others, making their reaction at the end seem incongruous and difficult to justify.

 

[Admiral Shran]

And, most importantly, it does one of the things DS9 does best, which is challenge Federation dogma and ask the question: is this perfect future really as perfect as we are led to believe? Is being surrounded by magic technology and eating out of replicators really the most satisfying life for a human being?

While I agree that one of DS9's greatest strengths was questioning both Federation dogma and the concept of a perfect utopian society (this was done with GREAT effect in later episodes - I won't name them in order to avoid spoilers), here it just falls flat.

I'll say right now that I'll gladly take being surrounded by magic technology and eating less flavorful food out of replicators (which I have a big problem with - how the hell is it supposed to be less flavorful? ) than living in a society with sweat-boxes, no privacy, and working back-breaking labor in order to get by.

 

[TheGodBen]

I can buy that some of the colony might be suffering from Stockholm syndrome and they decided to stay, but that doesn't come across well in the episode. As the good Gul said, most of these people must have family back home that they want to see again, so the idea that they'd all decide to stay and smile happily just doesn't ring true. It's a good episodes for Sisko, but the ending lets it down.

Also, Sisko getting back into the box is one of my earliest memories of the show. Even when I didn't fully understand what was happening, that scene stood out.

The good: FINALLY!! Bareil & Kira smooching! *happy dance* I know that nothing is going to come of the two of them...

I don't know, there's an episode coming up shortly that heavily implies that the two of them have come.

Wait, that came out wrong. (Or did it?)

 

[flemm]

I'll say right now that I'll gladly take being surrounded by magic technology and eating less flavorful food out of replicators (which I have a big problem with - how the hell is it supposed to be less flavorful? ) than living in a society with sweat-boxes, no privacy, and working back-breaking labor in order to get by.

So would I, but then I like my relatively comfortable life in our own society. That said, there are people who find it limited and limiting and want to get back to what they consider to be a more natural lifestyle: growing their own crops, raising and slaughtering their own lifestock, making their own soap, building their own homes, being less tethered to technology, less reliant on our society's insanely complicated infrastructure, etc. It's not really about what you or I prefer: the idea that some people would reject the Federation's way of life is definitely worth exploring.

Anyway, while the episode has its moments, I think the problem here is that there is too much focus on the obviously sinister side of the colony's lifestyle for the ending to ring true.

Spoiler: a few mild spoilers

As for the replicated food detail, I think it's an excellent choice to distinguish between the artificially created food and the real deal. It's true that the (totally fantastic and silly) concept of replicator technology as it is normally understood in Trek doesn't really allow for this possibility, but that is the whole point: replicators are stupid, and having characters pull all of their food out of a hole in the wall totally sterilizes what should be an important part of human culture. So, making the replicated food inferior is a way of bringing cooking and growing food back into the picture as important endeavors. What point would there be to Sisko cooking his own food and making a big deal of the proper technique if he can just press a button for something that tastes identical? Not to mention his father's restaurant on earth, for example. These ideas come back to the fore in some of the Eddington episodes to good effect.

 

[Admiral Shran]

It's not really about what you or I prefer: the idea that some people would reject the Federation's way of life is definitely worth exploring.

It is worth exploring, and future episodes to so very well. And, I think we both agree that this episode really screwed up the concept by not giving it a more balanced view. According to this episode it's either the Federation lifestyle or the colony's - there's no middle ground.

Spoiler: a few mild spoilers

As for the replicated food detail, I think it's an excellent choice to distinguish between the artificially created food and the real deal. It's true that the (totally fantastic and silly) concept of replicator technology as it is normally understood in Trek doesn't really allow for this possibility, but that is the whole point: replicators are stupid, and having characters pull all of their food out of a hole in the wall totally sterilizes what should be an important part of human culture. So, making the replicated food inferior is a way of bringing cooking and growing food back into the picture as important endeavors. What point would there be to Sisko cooking his own food and making a big deal of the proper technique if he can just press a button for something that tastes identical? Not to mention his father's restaurant on earth, for example. These ideas come back to the fore in some of the Eddington episodes to good effect.

Spoiler: future episodes

I don't know. What always bugged me is that I always took it to be that Sisko likes to cook his own food because he simply enjoys doing it, not because he thinks it tastes better. That's the same thing I always thought about Joseph and his restaurant - he runs the place because he enjoys doing it, nothing more.

As for Eddington, I think there the showrunners got a little too carried away with questioning the Federation lifestyle. I won't say too much, as we should probably wait until star actually gets to those episodes so that we don't have hide everything in spoiler tags. I'll just say that that questioning was done very well in episodes like The Maquis and Doctor Bashir, I Presume. With Eddington it gets a little unbelievable. For example, how was he growing his own crops and leading a revolution at the same time?

 

[flemm]

It is worth exploring, and future episodes to so very well. And, I think we both agree that this episode really screwed up the concept by not giving it a more balanced view. According to this episode it's either the Federation lifestyle or the colony's - there's no middle ground.

I wouldn't go that far as the final scene suggests that the remaining colonists themselves may opt for just such a middle path in the long run. I do think we are pretty much in agreement about the problems with the ending, though.

I won't say too much, as we should probably wait until star actually gets to those episodes so that we don't have hide everything in spoiler tags.

Yeah, that makes sense.

 

[Admiral Shran]

I'm still anxious to hear your thoughts on the opening of Season Two.

OMG. I can't believe I forgot to say this back when you reviewed these episodes star.

I have a particular soft spot for those three episodes because they were the first episodes of DS9 I ever watched.

Back when they first aired I was just becoming interested in Star Trek. I had recently watched my very first episode of Trek ever, TNG: Liaisons, and The Homecoming aired the very next day. Maybe that's why I have such a hard time understanding why some people say they're boring - they pulled me right into the series with a vengence. In fact, they did a much better job of pulling me into Trek in general than Liaisons did, or the very first piece of Trek I ever saw did - which I'm kind of embarrassed to say was Star Trek V: The Final Frontier.

 

[TheGodBen]

Oh, I'm really sorry. I don't even know why I'm apologising because I had nothing to do with TFF, but somebody owes you an apology and it might as well be me.

 

[JoeD80]

I'll say right now that I'll gladly take being surrounded by magic technology and eating less flavorful food out of replicators (which I have a big problem with - how the hell is it supposed to be less flavorful? )

The replicator was never very good at "salting to taste" and also had a thing for adding MSG to every dish.

 

[Admiral Shran]

Oh, I'm really sorry. I don't even know why I'm apologising because I had nothing to do with TFF, but somebody owes you an apology and it might as well be me.

It's about time somebody apologised for putting me through that trauma!

Actually, if anyone owes anybody an apology over TFF, it's Shatner owing it to all of us.

 

[TheGodBen]

Well, Shatner did want to do a Director's Edition of TFF, which would have been the same movie but with Shatner appearing at the end grovelling for our forgiveness. Sadly, Paramount refused to put up the money for it, so we're stuck with the original version for all eternity.

 

[Admiral Shran]

Damn Paramount. They gotta screw up everything.