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I'm thinking of collating my best posts (all of them) into a book and putting it on sale around Christmas, like Charlie Brooker does with his Guardian column. With a conservative estimate, I'd say it should earn me $2 billion.
Again, an interesting point... I suppose my sense of legal justice (or a more clear explanation for the lack of it) is coloring how I feel about the ending.
I can understand your point of view, I guess it's not so important for me.
A few year ago I saw a documentary about an incident that happened during the Irish War of Independence where the IRA brutally murdered a Protestant family. And I mean brutally; they shot the father and son in the gonads and let them bleed to death in an agonising fashion for several days. The claim was made that they were working with the British government and passing along information about local members of the IRA, but there's no evidence of that, and many think that the locals just ganged up and killed them because they didn't like them. When the war ended, no justice was served, and in the show they interviewed some people that said it was war time and it was a legitimate action for the time.
Now, if they were working with the British government and they really did give information about local IRA activities, then I would concede that executing them is an understandable action, even though I would have preferred for them to be arrested somehow and tried later. But to claim that shooting the guys in the nuts and letting them bleed to death is in any way just, to hear someone try to pass it off as somehow the right thing to do, that made me feel a little ill.
In contrast, what Kira did doesn't seem so bad.
Anyway this whole idea of Kira's hatred for collaborators comes up again in the future, so it's important to see just how far her hatred for them goes.
A lot of other shows (including every other Trek show) would make Kira innocent, but this episode makes the show's heroine guilty of murder, which is great. It doesn't sugarcoat the fact that she was a terrorist and a murderer, and yes, it was necessary, and it was the only way for the resistance to fight Cardassians.
Beyond that it seems extremely likely that Kira did, in fact, seduce Vatrik in order to get at the list, meaning that she was willing to use her body as a tool to further her aims in the resistance, which is probably harder for Odo to stomach than the fact that Kira killed during the occupation (something Odo already knew).
Odo's in love with her from the beginning, which is why he wants to believe Kira's story about the ginger tea and her innocent relationship with Vatrik. "Justice, as they say, is blind... I used to believe that." "You were a better liar than I gave you credit for." What prevented Odo from seeing the truth wasn't that he believed Kira was above killing Vatrik, but rather that he hated the idea of her seducing him, and potentially others, for similar reasons. Notice, for example, how pissed he gets in the bar when Quark starts to imply that Kira offered him sexual favors.
Hence at the end, the look of shame on Kira's face when she says: "What you think of me is very important." I don't think it's just the lying and the killing that is being referred to here, but rather the unspoken truth about how much Kira was really willing to sacrifice during the occupation.
A lot of other shows (including every other Trek show) would make Kira innocent, but this episode makes the show's heroine guilty of murder, which is great. It doesn't sugarcoat the fact that she was a terrorist and a murderer, and yes, it was necessary, and it was the only way for the resistance to fight Cardassians.
Beyond that it seems extremely likely that Kira did, in fact, seduce Vatrik in order to get at the list, meaning that she was willing to use her body as a tool to further her aims in the resistance, which is probably harder for Odo to stomach than the fact that Kira killed during the occupation (something Odo already knew).
Except that Kira flat out said - at a time when she had no more reason to lie because Odo had already revealed that he knew it was her - that there was no seduction whatsoever involved. So really, I don't know where you're getting that from. She says that she was sneaking into the shop, that she got caught, and that she had to kill Vaatrik to get away free. No mention of seduction anywhere.
TheGodBen, I'm thinking a liberal estimate of around $3 trillion is in order. Then you can use all that moolah on CGI for an upcoming Star Trek series and we'll all be happy.
And if that inside joke doesn't ring any bells, strike my last. I don't remember if you posted in that particular thread or not.
star, at the rate you're going, you'll pass me in reviews quite soon. It's a testament to how... verbose mine are that they're slow sinkers.
We're perfect together, really. I'm the three-course meal and you're the on-the-go lifestyle. I'd say when we're both done with our respective threads, we partner up and start selling something. /nods all-knowingly
A lot of other shows (including every other Trek show) would make Kira innocent, but this episode makes the show's heroine guilty of murder, which is great. It doesn't sugarcoat the fact that she was a terrorist and a murderer, and yes, it was necessary, and it was the only way for the resistance to fight Cardassians.
Beyond that it seems extremely likely that Kira did, in fact, seduce Vatrik in order to get at the list, meaning that she was willing to use her body as a tool to further her aims in the resistance, which is probably harder for Odo to stomach than the fact that Kira killed during the occupation (something Odo already knew).
Except that Kira flat out said - at a time when she had no more reason to lie because Odo had already revealed that he knew it was her - that there was no seduction whatsoever involved. So really, I don't know where you're getting that from. She says that she was sneaking into the shop, that she got caught, and that she had to kill Vaatrik to get away free. No mention of seduction anywhere.
^ Okay, I guess I'm going to have jump in here and defend myself.
I liked Precious Cargo for what it was. It was a fun little, enjoyable episode, at least for me. I went into that episode expecting it to be a fun, little, meaningless episode with hardly any connection to the larger Star Trek mythos. You got to remember that this was in the midst of ENT Season Two, when hardly anything was being added to the overall mythos of Star Trek. Now I'll admit that if I had went into the episode with absolutely any other expectations, I would have ended up hating it with a passion. However, whenever I watch anything, my expectations do play a part in my overall enjoyment, or lack thereof, of that episode/movie/whatever.
For example - and I'm sure I'll be opening myself up to even more s here - I liked Transformers: Revenge of the Fallen. I went into that movie expecting it to be a mindless action flick. I didn't think I'd get anything out it other than some nice pretty explosions. And you know what? It delivered on that account. I wanted to see some giant, transforming, alien robots beating the shit out of each other. I wasn't disappointed. If I had expected the movie to deliver some good acting, good dialogue, or a fairly decent story, I would have been massively disappointed. The same thing holds true for Precious Cargo.
Also, if I had went into an episode like Damage expecting it to be a fun, little, meaningless episode, I would have been massively disappointed - as it is anything but. This is part of the reason why I'm so fucking offended by TATV. I went into that episode expecting something a lot more. This was a season finale, a series finale, and for all intents and purposes - at the time - the franchise finale. I expected something with a good story and a strong, meaningful connection to the larger mythology. What we got was a crapfest of an excuse for Jonathan Frakes and Marina Sirtis to reprise their roles, nothing more.
Conversely, if I watch the Charlton Heston movies Ben-Hur and The Ten Commandments expecting to see movies which promote an atheistic worldview, I'm going to be sorely disappointed.
This is also why I find Valiant so disappointing, and why I would rate it even below Profit and Lace. As I watched that episode for the first time, I kept expecting the writers to finally just have the guts to say that Red Squad was wrong. Instead, we got an ending which I feel is a letdown - leaving it up in the air as to whether Jake, Nog, and the sole survivor feel that Red Squad was in the wrong or right all along.
Now, while I am saying that I have an affection for Precious Cargo, I'm certainly not saying that it's great. It's no better than a 5/10, at the most. It's a very average episode which I'll willing to give the benefit of the doubt, that's all.
Of course, I might simply be over-analyzing this. Maybe I just like Precious Cargo because I think Padma Lakshmi is so freakin' hot.
I don't want to go too off-topic by talking about Enterprise, but I'll just say that my big problem with Precious Cargo was how I predicted the moment Trip saw the Princess in the tube that they would end up having sex on a jungle planet. Turns out that they did the nasty on a swamp planet, but I was close.
This is also why I find Valiant so disappointing, and why I would rate it even below Profit and Lace. As I watched that episode for the first time, I kept expecting the writers to finally just have the guts to say that Red Squad was wrong. Instead, we got an ending which I feel is a letdown - leaving it up in the air as to whether Jake, Nog, and the sole survivor feel that Red Squad was in the wrong or right all along.
I always felt the ending was a condemnation of Red Squad. Sure, Collins said at the end that Captain Waters was a great man and he wasn't to blame for their failure, it was the fault of the team, but I always assumed that was to show just how brainwashed they were, and Nog wanted it in Jake's report so that people would understand. I mean, the last line of the episode was "[Waters] was a bad captain."
Except that Kira flat out said - at a time when she had no more reason to lie because Odo had already revealed that he knew it was her - that there was no seduction whatsoever involved. So really, I don't know where you're getting that from. She says that she was sneaking into the shop, that she got caught, and that she had to kill Vaatrik to get away free. No mention of seduction anywhere.
The last scene doesn't deal with the issue directly. Kira says: "Vaatrik was my responsability." and "Obviously, I never found the list, but that's what I was looking for when Vaatrik walked in on me."
That's not the whole story, though, since going back to the beginning of the investigation, Vaatrik's wife claims that he was having an affair with Kira, who doesn't deny that they knew each other previously: she merely asserts that they became friends and that she has a taste for ginger tea. She knows she can't deny having met Vaatrik soon after she came to the station because she knows Odo will be able to confirm that they did meet.
Let's keep in mind that much of what Kira says in this initial conversation with Odo is a lie, and that much of what Vaatrik's wife claims ends up being true. One of the things Vaatrik's wife asserts is that her husband confessed his infidelity a couple of days before the murder. Now we never really find out if this is true, but we never find out it's false either. Basically, we're left with the possibility that, on the one hand, Kira and Vaatrik did have an affair (which, of course, from Kira's point of view was just a way of trying to get close to Vaatrik and locate the list), or that they were just having innocent meetings over tea.
The second possibility seems rather unlikely (why would Vaatrik be interested in spending time with Kira for innocent conversation over tea), especially given the "noir" genre, which often uses the "femme fatale" trope of the seductive and deadly woman. Also, the whole question of using sex as a means to an end is floated at least two other times over the course of the episode. First, when Odo sits down to question Kira: "I don't do what you want, not for money, not for food." (But for the resistance?) And then again with Quark at the bar, when Odo breaks Kira's alibi.
The episode goes out of its way to make it clear that it is commonplace for the less-privileged Bajorans to trade sexual favors for various material comforts (if it weren't commonplace, why would Kira assume that is why Odo accosts her, and why would Quark think this detail would make for a more convincing alibi?). This would explain Vaatrik's interest in Kira upon her arrival on Terok Nor, and exploiting this type of behavior would be the ideal way for an agent of the resistance to get close enough to Vaatrik to determine the location of the list.
So, given what we know, it seems likely that Kira's initial approach for locating the list was getting involved with Vaatrik. Now, granted, this could be seen as primarily a sort of "aftertaste" of the noir genre conventions that PAF was using to build the episode, but anyway it fits with the theme of "Necessary Evil,"
and it makes sense that Odo would struggle with this aspect of the investigation in particuler, given that it is already starting to become clear at this point that Odo's feelings for Kira go beyond friendship. Kira's version of events ("Vaatrik and I were just friends, and I like ginger tea") is not, after all, a very convincing lie in those circumstances.
Also, I think the final scene is even stronger in light of this:
Odo: You were a better liar than I gave you credit for.
Kira: You were working for the Cardassians.
Odo: I haven't been for over a year. You've had all that time to tell me the truth.
Kira: I tried to tell you the truth a hundred times... What you think of me matters a lot. *bows her head in what appears to be a mix of sorrow and shame* I was afraid...
Odo: ... that it might affect our friendship? *gazes soulfully at Kira, whose head is still bowed* Maybe it doesn't have to.
Kira: Will you ever be able to trust me in the same way again?
Odo: ...
Why was it so hard to tell Odo the truth once he was no longer working for the Cardassians? Because Kira had been forced to kill a collaborator? Maybe in part, but she is not exactly shy about the resistance's contempt for collaborators (and Odo himself had expressed disgust with them earlier in the episode). Then perhaps because she had lied about sabotaging the ore processing center? In part, sure, but as Kira points out in this scene, there was a perfectly good reason for that: Odo was working for the Cardassians. It seems more likely that the reason it was so difficult to tell the truth was because of the implications regarding the rest of what Kira had told Odo about her activities on the station and her association with Vaatrik.
This is also why I find Valiant so disappointing, and why I would rate it even below Profit and Lace. As I watched that episode for the first time, I kept expecting the writers to finally just have the guts to say that Red Squad was wrong. Instead, we got an ending which I feel is a letdown - leaving it up in the air as to whether Jake, Nog, and the sole survivor feel that Red Squad was in the wrong or right all along.
I always felt the ending was a condemnation of Red Squad. Sure, Collins said at the end that Captain Waters was a great man and he wasn't to blame for their failure, it was the fault of the team, but I always assumed that was to show just how brainwashed they were, and Nog wanted it in Jake's report so that people would understand. I mean, the last line of the episode was "[Waters] was a bad captain."
star, at the rate you're going, you'll pass me in reviews quite soon. It's a testament to how... verbose mine are that they're slow sinkers.
We're perfect together, really. I'm the three-course meal and you're the on-the-go lifestyle. I'd say when we're both done with our respective threads, we partner up and start selling something. /nods all-knowingly
I've never thought of myself as the on-the-go type. I suppose I come off that way here probably because I don't delve too deeply in this world. My husband would not call me a "casual" fan of trek -- but a dyed-to-the-wool Trekkie. However, when I participate here, I very much feel that my love of Trek is far more casual than I thought it was.
So you get my overall impressions. Heck, I don't even participate in the "discuss every tiny detail" threads in the ENT forum, where my love of Trek is the most ardent. *shrug*
Now, if you want to discuss health and fitness, on the other hand, then I become quite wordy.
But yes, we might consider combining forces. Your more detailed reviews will excite the readers who want to look at things from all angles and in all lights, and my briefly described impressions would suit the fans who are wondering the general entertainment value of a particular episode or series.
Generally I think it's fun to have multiple review threads going at once, it keeps the overall discussion interesting (though obviously TheGodBen's thread will suck the life out of the forum like air out of a open docking bay).
flemm is right, my thread will be so awesome that it will suck all the aweomse from other threads to make it even more awesome, sort of like a superawesome black hole.
Speaking of which, my thread will be the best because when all the other threads are done and over with, I'll still be in season four, keeping people reading for long periods of time they could have spent on other, more important things.
Seriously, star is so totally going to pass me soon.
Oh geez, someone slay me. I'm triple-posting. I didn't realize star said anything to me.
I know exactly what you mean about a place like this making you feel not quite as crazy about the franchise as you'd otherwise think. My girlfriend is pretty much convinced I know everything about Star Trek, because she's just getting into it, so compared to her that's practically the truth. Yet I see people talking about things around here that I've never heard of all the time, and it really puts me in my place.
And then TheGodBen makes ridiculous photoshop images and it really puts me in my place.
It's funny you should mention health and fitness. I wouldn't say I'm an expert or anything, but I definitely know more on those subjects than virtually everyone I know IRL, heh.
s for liking Precious Cargo.
I've never thought of myself as the on-the-go type. I suppose I come off that way here probably because I don't delve too deeply in this world. My husband would not call me a "casual" fan of trek -- but a dyed-to-the-wool Trekkie. However, when I participate here, I very much feel that my love of Trek is far more casual than I thought it was.
