They crashed veeerrry slowly.....
[yt]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X464-am0Jcg[/yt]
StarKiller {SPOILER}
- Thread starter Flying Spaghetti Monster
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They crashed veeerrry slowly.....
[yt]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X464-am0Jcg[/yt]
And since we wouldn't witness it until 8-minutes after it occurred that's not exactly instantaneous, is it? And the only "instant" thing would be the loss of light. The sun will still put out heat and radiation (which travels slower than light) and have gravity. The effects of nova we'd notice once it impacted us, shearing off the atmosphere, eroding the surface and wiping it clean, etc.
But that's not "instantaneous" from when the nova actually happened.
Oh, you're just being pedantic about the word "instantaneous." (Nevermind that an "instant" is not a defined period of time beyond 'short', which is completely relative.) Okay. But by that silliness, detonating a nuclear bomb you're sitting on wouldn't be instantaneous either. Or, really, anything as everything takes some measure of time to occur. So the word has no meaning whatsoever, since it can never occur.
The point is, if the sun stopped giving off light (and even heat) right now, all life on Earth would not be dead a millisecond later. A time-frame of days or weeks is most definitely not "instantaneous."
See this article from Popular Science:
http://www.popsci.com/node/204957
Kor
See this article from Popular Science:
http://www.popsci.com/node/204957
Kor
The Starkiller Base is pretty stupid, although it didn't come across quite as stupid as a second Death Star, which was just lame, but the movie seemed to embrace the over the top element of it, witness Hux's crazy Hitleresque speech before it fires, so it didn't bother me. I do get why it might be a little much for others.
While having no definite length given, "instantaneous" does mean a very short amount of time, usually perceived as happening right away. You turn on the light on a room and it "instantly" comes on. Though fractions of a second have occurred given the speed of electricity from the source, through the closed switch, to the light and then the speed of light from the bulb to your eyes. But it happens "instantly" as far as you are concerned.
If the sun went out right now, those of us on Earth wouldn't know it for 8.5 minutes, trillions of times longer the length of time you have to "wait" for a light to come on when you flip a switch. And that's just the light, radiant heat would take much longer (heat doesn't travel the speed of light and doesn't conduct/travel well through a vacuum.) Various forms of radiation would take slightly longer than the light (they don't travel at light-speed either.)
Any shock-wave from what happened to the sun is going to travel slower than the speed of light (though, honestly, I'm not sure how fast it'd travel as a fraction of c. Though considering the released energy it may flirt with a high percentage of c.) If Earth remains intact through all of this, it's going to take a long time for the heat already trapped under or atmosphere (if it survives the shock waves) a very long time.
So, if I'm being pedantic thinking "instantaneous" means "seems to happen right away" and not "a period of several minutes to several weeks, possibly months" Then, yeah, I'm being pedantic.
Also, definition of "instantaneous?" "an infinitesimal space of time."
Several minutes isn't an infinitesimal space of time.
Would have been neat if there was a special effect for the hyperlaser going into and out of hyperspace. The more recent Space Battleship Yamato 2199 movie has an effect for the enemy's weapon that can "transverse space" which looks really cool even if it is based on a 1978 anime effect. They ramped it up for 2014.
They wouldn't even have to explain it at that point. Laser goes into hyperspace, portal looking think opens up in Republic systems, then laser comes out and melts planet and fleet into slag. Would have looked cool too.
Still wouldn't show how Solo and Finn could see it from Maz's place, unless it needed to come out of hyperspace for gravity assisted course corrections right overhead (which would be weird, but gravity bending light weapons, plus how would it know how to reenter hyperspace...but it is more wacky science that just seeing it across light years distances)
They wouldn't even have to explain it at that point. Laser goes into hyperspace, portal looking think opens up in Republic systems, then laser comes out and melts planet and fleet into slag. Would have looked cool too.
Still wouldn't show how Solo and Finn could see it from Maz's place, unless it needed to come out of hyperspace for gravity assisted course corrections right overhead (which would be weird, but gravity bending light weapons, plus how would it know how to reenter hyperspace...but it is more wacky science that just seeing it across light years distances)
Interesting article on Starkiller Base and plasma physics:
http://www.geekwire.com/2015/starki...-wars-bad-guys-have-perfected-plasma-physics/
But... this is a universe inhabited by lords, counts, princesses and emperors in space, as well as mystical warriors with laser swords and magical telekinesis (and now mind reading). I don't think we're meant to think too much about the science involved.
Kor
Let me try my hand at it anyway
First a quote from another website (one link only, I promise)
"The world-sized weapon fits the elan of the old Empire (Really - how many super-weapons do they have to have shot out from under them before they'll start figuring it out?!?) though the 'use up a star to charge the batteries' thing might have been a little overcooked - pardon the pun...."
"I'll take back a few of the things I've said about J.J. Abrams over the years. He's done a lot to redeem himself in my eyes with this magnificent offering - let's see how the rest of the series goes. If this film is any indication, the Star Wars universe is in very good hands."
Early in the film, we heard Rey mention the word Kelvin--and what was the first ship we saw in the 09 Trek reboot?
More about other links in a moment:
"Containing an entire star's worth of energy in an even smaller oscillator is poorly thought out. The mass alone would crush the planet/death star. And to make that in 30 years? How long would the technology alone take to develop?"
Now, remember, the whole mass/energy of the universe was once smaller than an atom. Remember when we laughed at the Moon leaving us and increasing speed in Space 1999's pilot Breakaway--only now we know the whole universe is doing just that?
Stranger things...
This actually tells me they are on the way to Time Lord tech.
We saw a star in the TARDIS after all, and when the planet exploded, that sun was only that planet's width--as if hit by the Master's compression weapon.
To go back to the 09 Trek--we saw Vulcan fall in on itself--so maybe some type or early red-matter deca-lithium after all? Naquadah maybe?
Besides, the Fourth Doctor saw that Captain who kept whole worlds like shrunken heads.
Another quote;
"people seem to not like the "space station the size of a planet" thing that the bad guys keep trying to use in the movies... 'if it didn't work out so well the first time, so why did they build another one around the forest moon of Endor?' is something that has been argued about for 30 years...now, 30 years later, they built a new one- even more bigger and more powerful.-- why would they do this?"
Shock and Awe.
This base actually makes sense. In the past, you built these large mobile moons (Death Stars) that had to go to their targets--so a lot of their mass went into their hyperdrives. The weak point of Starkiller base really wasn't all that weak. There had to be both substantial interior and exterior damage to kill it.
Here the idea isn't to move your weapon into harm's way (even if it is mobile), but to have a base that fires a hyperlight weapon of enormous power--an abomination that wrecked nature in just firing the thing.
Now I have heard folks make the same complaint about seeing this weapon work--seeing targets light years away explode instantly--same as with Spock Prime watching Vulcan implode. It isn't a bug--it is a feature.
Here is my explanation to that--which may also answer why the penchant for superweapons.
Had the beam been stealthy--the military goal would have been met--but that isn't enough to cause subjects to quake in their boots.
Handwavium, I know, but my guess is that, in-universe, the hyperlight weapon has an even faster 'halo' of even faster quanta jacketing it--that moves near instantaneously. This halo then decays into visible light when it strikes an atmosphere, in much the same way that the audio spotlight holosonics works:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sound_from_ultrasound
This halo effect means that the targeted world can see the main body of the beam as it approaches--causing fear.
Even worse, the main body of the beam also illuminates the target while destroying it--meaning that everyone in the whole bloody galaxy can see the beam and the worlds it destroys **real-time** and unaided.
Saddest of all, when the beam is spent--all you see now is the ghost of the world as it takes regular visible light time to travel--meaning you will see this sick event for a second time.
This also explains how Nero showed Vulcan's death to Spock Prime.
From starshipmodeler's karim:
So... a couple of things that bugged me immediately that haven't been mentioned in this thread yet:
We see the giant weapon fire and destroy the Republic, etc... Then we are told that it charges by draining the sun, and when its ready to fire, the sun goes out... So where did the charge come form for the first shot?? And lets say it is located in a binary system... who spends the time, money, and effort to build a non-mobile mega weapon that only gets as many shots as it has stars in its system?
Stellar nursery. (or cluster--from Asimov's NIGHTFALL)
That alone should make you sick.
This thing isn't just destroying extant star systems--but those to come as well!
Only two bombs were needed in WWII--and there were only two to be had--but no one knew that.
Had the original Death Star managed to fire that second time--its all over.
This was even worse--the whole fleet was wiped out.
In other words, Hux and the First Order changed out the order of chosing targets.
The original Death Star's second target of Yavin...a military one...was the first target for Starkiller base. It was Yavin and Alderan in one shot
This blow was far worse--and the better part of the First Order's objective has already been achieved--everything else was just gravy. That's the real hell of it.
Due to better effects, energy bolts are not just smooth featureless animations. Weapons/beams seem to track--like the DC Comic Excelsior's tracing phasers--the bolts seem made of energy fibers.
Everything is directed. The original Death Star beam converged--the starkiler beam diverged--in the same way oil/gas can do horizontal drilling fracking below--Starkiller can do with energy beams above.
Imagine Pearl Harbor Day--but with Japan using, not a fleet of expensive ships, but a single large craft that contained the CASTLE BRAVO runaway H-bomb.
That is Starkiller base.
Of course, one can actually go larger. Colin Kapp's Chaos weapon.
Using gravity tractors over deep time, one might even be able to knock over a quasar--and have an actively feeding galactic core aim its X-ray jets through the plane of a galaxy, instead of above or below it. harmlessly.
Maybe, but I'm thinking it would be as invisible as a ship in hyperspace--only sensors could detect it.
Again, you actually want this strike to be as visible as possible--whatever the price.
--thus Starkiller Base is perfectly in keeping with The Tarkin Doctrine...and how.
Then too--it means that something like Stargate's aurturo device, trek's omega particle or just an interdictor/immobilizer could stop the beam. That's good
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Sorry, but all of these "super weapons" are actually incredibly stupid.
First, why would you want to go around completely destroying all of the most desirable, habitable worlds in the galaxy? It's like saying "I want to rule the world! So I'm going to destroy the Americas, Australia, and Europe in order to do so!"
Second, why would you invest so much in such a ridiculously oversized weapon that had to cost an equally ridiculous amount of resources to build, when even a small ship with anything even remotely close to light-speed drive (not hyperdrive mind) could do the same job. The Falcon, for example, was said to be able to go 0.5 past light speed even without hyperspace if memory serves. That, on a ship of its size, would completely obliterate all life on pretty much any planet, if not outright turning the planet into a ball of molten magma. And for significantly cheaper and far more mobility to boot.
I know it's a science fantasy series, but that doesn't make it any less dumb. Especially having visited it three times now, with all three completely and utterly failing each time.
First, why would you want to go around completely destroying all of the most desirable, habitable worlds in the galaxy? It's like saying "I want to rule the world! So I'm going to destroy the Americas, Australia, and Europe in order to do so!"
Second, why would you invest so much in such a ridiculously oversized weapon that had to cost an equally ridiculous amount of resources to build, when even a small ship with anything even remotely close to light-speed drive (not hyperdrive mind) could do the same job. The Falcon, for example, was said to be able to go 0.5 past light speed even without hyperspace if memory serves. That, on a ship of its size, would completely obliterate all life on pretty much any planet, if not outright turning the planet into a ball of molten magma. And for significantly cheaper and far more mobility to boot.
I know it's a science fantasy series, but that doesn't make it any less dumb. Especially having visited it three times now, with all three completely and utterly failing each time.
The explanation I've seen floating around is that (according to one of the tie-in books) the base uses something called "phantom energy" which *somehow* refracts the light from the "phantom beams" back through hyperspace, making the image of the destruction instantly visible all over the galaxy.
Yes, I know it's nonsense meant to hand-wave JJ's loose grip on astrophysics, but apparently it's "official" nonsense.
Well, the Death Star was pretty clearly explained. It was deterrence. Just like the United States would protect West Berlin through threat of nuclear warfare, the Death Star would prevent systems from rebelling because, if their planet rebelled, everyone would die. It's not like massacring an entire rebelling population is unheard of in history.
The Starkiller was not only explained, it was shown. The New Republic prevented the First Order from destroying the Rebellion. The Starkiller destroyed the New Republic and its fleet, leaving them with the most powerful fleet in the galaxy.
The Falcon was never said to go .5 past light outside of hyperspace. It was just said to go .5 past light. That's a decent explanation for what he meant but it was probably just more Star Wars nonsense measurements like parsecs as a measurement of time.
Or even more to the point, like how he felt the death of the Intrepid's Vulcan crew in "The Immunity Syndrome"--Spock was feeling great disturbances a decade before Obi-Wan!
This is a problem that Star Trek has as well, and it is so, SO, dumb. What kind of navy - especially one that has multiple worlds and/or theaters of operation to consider - has ONE fleet?
I just rewatched the scene (in my head - I have an excellent memory
) where the Hosnian System is destroyed to see what ships were in the fleet, to see if I saw, for instance, Mon Cal cruisers represented. My thinking being that surely there was more than just what was destroyed there. But I didn't see ANY ships destroyed in that scene. Just worlds. No mention of any fleet. What the heck are you guys talking about?
All I know is they said that without the Republic's fleet, they didn't have anything that could get past the Starkiller's shields and take it down.
You can see maybe a dozen ships get vaporized with the planet in the close up. They are still small in the shot though.
I imagine the fleet was the reasoning behind destroying the other four planets. Maybe those were the main Republic Fleet bases or the main shipyards. The Republic Fleet had stood down following the war and ended the massed buildup of the war machine since the start of the Clone Wars. So the Fleet, even if it is the largest in the Galaxy, was small compared to what the Old Republic, Confederacy of Independent Systems, and certainly the Galactic Empire's had in the past. The war was over. The Empire had been stripped of the majority of its fleet. Peace had settled, for the most part, in the Galaxy probably most of the last three decades.
With that in place, General Organa would be classified as a war hawk for fearing the First Order. There was no way (as far as the Republic was concerned) that the First Order could hope to match the Republic in a fleet engagement. Even with the Order's new star destroyers and shielded TIE Fighters.
But Starkiller Base changes that. It neutralizes the Republic Fleet, or at least a solid core of it (like hitting Pearl Harbor with a Wave Motion Gun on December 7th, 1941, and vaporizing not only the base, but the island around it as well). Sure there are probably more Republic ships in the Galaxy, but they might not be the larger cruisers that can stand up the modern Star Destroyers. But, if Republic tactics are like Rebellion tactics they will use Starfighters and more Starfighters.
I imagine the fleet was the reasoning behind destroying the other four planets. Maybe those were the main Republic Fleet bases or the main shipyards. The Republic Fleet had stood down following the war and ended the massed buildup of the war machine since the start of the Clone Wars. So the Fleet, even if it is the largest in the Galaxy, was small compared to what the Old Republic, Confederacy of Independent Systems, and certainly the Galactic Empire's had in the past. The war was over. The Empire had been stripped of the majority of its fleet. Peace had settled, for the most part, in the Galaxy probably most of the last three decades.
With that in place, General Organa would be classified as a war hawk for fearing the First Order. There was no way (as far as the Republic was concerned) that the First Order could hope to match the Republic in a fleet engagement. Even with the Order's new star destroyers and shielded TIE Fighters.
But Starkiller Base changes that. It neutralizes the Republic Fleet, or at least a solid core of it (like hitting Pearl Harbor with a Wave Motion Gun on December 7th, 1941, and vaporizing not only the base, but the island around it as well). Sure there are probably more Republic ships in the Galaxy, but they might not be the larger cruisers that can stand up the modern Star Destroyers. But, if Republic tactics are like Rebellion tactics they will use Starfighters and more Starfighters.
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