Stargates

[EmoBorg]

I'm rewatching SGA right now, and I can't see the lighter tone compared to SG1. My impression is that it's a lot more violent, scarier, and a lot darker.

I did not find SGA dark in the beginning to be honest . Maybe because of McKay, Beckett and Zelenka. The Wraith strike me as a bunch of vampiric goths with bleached hair.

The Goa'uld were more menacing to me.

Later on, when Weir sacrificed herself and Beckett died, that is when SGA get more darker.

 

[Starbreaker]

Stargate Universe was a mixed bag. There were some great episodes like Time and Justice, but they completely moved away from any dramatic tension when they brought the stones out every episode.

 

[Bry_Sinclair]

Of the Stargates, I'm generally a fan of what was originally intended to be called Stargate Command (i.e. Seasons 9-10 of SG1). That said, I generally really enjoyed the totality of SG1 and was cool with Atlantis up unitl they killed Weir for no good reason (the producers treatment of Torri Higginson was appaling).

What was the story behind Torri Higginson's departure? I liked her as the expedition leader, it was good to see a female civilian in such a crucial role after all the military of SG-1.

The revolving door of CO's after that became a bit of a joke (though it was good to see Carter back as a full bird colonel), especially when Woolsey got the job--have to wonder if S6 had gone ahead who they'd brought in for the role for that year.

 

[Guy Gardener]

What about Teyla?

Weird and difficult, but not impossible.

Besides, no taxation without representation... Were her people even sill living on Atlantiis?

 

[cylkoth]

^The Athosians were pretty much wiped out by the end of s5. Only a handful survived Michael's little 'social' experiment.

 

[Guy Gardener]

That's sad.

It was odd that there wasn't interbreeding between the Athosians and the Earthers.

Inbreeding would have to have been a terrible problem by that point considering the low populations present in that part of the galaxy.

Seriously, would you marry a cousin before an alien?

 

[The Borgified Corpse]

I like SGU a lot. I think it comes down to what you're looking for. If you look at SGU as part of the SG-1 franchise it's not very successful. People who like SG-1 and its light adventures and likable characters were bound to be disappointed.

On its own terms, I loved SGU and its more mysterious world where things were more alien, unknown and dangerous. The idea of some big unknown purpose guiding them on was intriguing.

I generally didn't care for SGU. I like my escapism to be a bit more fun.

However, I agree that SGU did a good job of racheting up the danger & the mystery. I got the sense that one false move could cost lives or get someone stranded forever. In that sense, it reminds me of the strangely perilous, alien feel of the really early black & white Doctor Who episodes.

It's funny, I like SGA a lot more than SG1, for similar reasons why I like DS9 a lot more than TNG. And I really love the crossover episodes, and the crossover storyarcs. They never did any of that in Trek. There is no episode where for example Picard, Riker and Data, and Sisko, Dax and Kira work together in a major story. You only have cameos of the subcast for the B plot. But there is plenty of that in the SG1/SGA crossovers.

While I agree that Star Trek was terribly stingy with crossovers, Stargate wasn't that much better. "The Pegasus Project" was the only episode that crossed over more than 1 or 2 characters.

Though I think Robert Carlyle stole the show when it came to SG:U

Agreed. And considering he was the only one on the ship that seemed to have any idea what was going on most of the time, I was surprised that Col. Young and the rest weren't being nicer to him.

Hubby called it "Stargate:Galactica." I kind of agree with that; I could almost hear the suits saying, "BSG was successful, so let's make this third series just like that!"

That was almost certainly the case, though I don't know if it was the show runners' decision or the network's. And I don't think that was such a bad thing given that BSG took scifi to a new level and was well received. I was certainly open to more shows doing that and still am.

Perhaps. Although, Stargate SG-1 lasted 10 seasons (and probably would have lasted more if the cast hadn't gotten so expensive). Stargate Atlantis lasted 5 seasons. Battlestar Galactica got canceled after 4. On balance, I would say it's generally better to populate your sci-fi shows with non-assholes. But that's just my opinion.

Weir wasn't the only character they killed off, they did the same with Beckett. They eventually had to bring him back after the fans made clear their dissatisifaction with that decision.

IMO, Atlantis had a great cast that was perfectly balanced in Season 1. Then they just kept tinkering but never made anything better. I felt they made a major mistake getting rid of Lt. Ford in Season 2. While Ronon was a fine character, he was kind of redundant since they already had Teyla as the stoic alien warrior. Col. Carter & Mr. Woolsey were both good characters but they didn't seem to have quite the same sense of purpose on the show that Dr. Weir did. I did really like Dr. Keller, mostly because her romance with Dr. McKay brought out a drastically different side to the character. And while I felt that Dr. Beckett's death was a bit gratuitous, I think he had one of the best resurrections in TV history!

 

[Agent Richard07]

I'm doing a rewatch of SG-1 (now that I've watched SGA and SGU), as first time round I really did hammer through them pretty quickly. One thing that does continue to stick out for me (which I noticed the first time round) was how much I dislike O'Neill.

He's competent enough (no bumbling Jonathan Archer for sure), but there's just something about his demeanour and manner I find very off-putting. I'd go so far as to rank him at the bottom of my "Top 5 Main Character Colonels" (Carter, Mitchell, Sheppard, Young, O'Neill).

Really, hmm, that's interesting as O'Neill is the main reason I like SG-1. He was sort of a fresh take on a series that was basically cloning the ideas from Star Trek TOS and TNG, but giving us that tongue-in-cheek "this is silly" stuff that you'd expect from people that aren't into Sci-Fi.

Ba'al: Who are you?
O'Neill: You go first.
Ba'al: You claim you do not know me.
O'Neill: Well. Take no offense there, Skippy. I'm sure you're a real hot, important Goa'uld. I've just always been kinda out of the loop with the snake thing.
Ba'al: I am Ba'al.
O'Neill: That's it? Just... ball? As in bocce?
Ba'al: Do you not know the pain you will suffer for this impudence?
O'Neill: I don't know the meaning of the word. {pause}. Seriously, "impudence," what does that mean?

Jackson: It's good to see you.
O'Neill: Yeah. You too. It's a shame you're a delusion.
Jackson: Oh, I'm here. I'm really here.
O'Neill: Sure you are. {throws a shoe at and through him}
Jackson: Here in the sense that my consciousness is here. Not here in the full, physical flesh and blood sense, which is really neither here nor there. The point is, you're not imagining this.
O'Neill: I just tossed my shoe through you.
Jackson: Yes you did. That's because I have ascended to another plane of existence.

For a lot of people, O'Neill's humor is a big part of what made the show. Someone once described him this way though... When the show started, he was 90% colonel and 10% humor then towards the end, he was 10% colonel and 90% humor.

 

[The Borgified Corpse]

There's something to that. I was recently on my way home from a local fantasy convention when the cab driver struck up a conversation with me about Doctor Who. Eventually, the conversation turned to Stargate SG-1. He said he really liked the show but, as a former military officer himself, he felt that O'Neill's flippant attitude was not accurate for a Colonel. He said it might work for a lower rank but you generally don't get to be Colonel unless you are a bit more circumspect & diplomatic.

 

[Star Wolf]

Sure, but he was already a Colonel when he lost his son and retired. Not actually on track for stars when he made General after saving us.

 

[Guy Gardener]

O'Neil was getting promotions because he needed new even higher levels of clearance to do the next more secret, more immoral thing the US Government wanted to throw him against.

Even before his son Charlie accidentally killed himself, he had to already be a headcase and unfit to command a large number of soldiers in peacetime.

It was a different promotion track.

 

[Mr. Adventure]

O'Neill: You go first.
Ba'al: You claim you do not know me.
O'Neill: Well. Take no offense there, Skippy. I'm sure you're a real hot, important Goa'uld. I've just always been kinda out of the loop with the snake thing.
Ba'al: I am Ba'al.
O'Neill: That's it? Just... ball? As in bocce?
Ba'al: Do you not know the pain you will suffer for this impudence?
O'Neill: I don't know the meaning of the word. {pause}. Seriously, "impudence," what does that mean?

You'd think he'd be more considerate given how much work Ba'al spent learning English.

 

[EmoBorg]

I did not know that a new stargate movie might be made soon.
That is news to me.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=buNc7ZiR0UY

 

[USS Firefly]

I'm still hoping for a stargate quote book(with much from O'Neill ), like the star trek quote book.

 

[Silvercrest]

But then we'd be dealing with cliches and you know how O'Neill feels about those.

 

[JarodRussell]

When they reboot, what about the design? The original Stargate is a mix of Egyptian designs. When they change the backstory, they have to change the gate's look.

But unlike the Enterprise, whose base design can be characterized as a saucer, a neck, an engineering section and two nacelles mounted on pylons, the base design of the Stargate is just a ring. It won't be the same if they change it.

Similar to the T-800 Terminator Endoskeleton. That is absolutely unchangeable, because then it simply won't be the T-800.


And if they also change the water puddle to something else, then there is absolutely no point in calling it "Stargate" anymore. Because then it's just one of those generic imitations where a portal leads a team to another place in the universe, that couldn't use the original stuff for copyright reasons.

 

[Silvercrest]

SGA and SGU started going that route already with Stargate designs that diverged from the original by quite a bit (other than the ring and puddle). A reboot might feel free to go further.

I don't think the problem is design divergence as much as it is this: The further the storytelling gets from what I call "gate lore", the less relevant the Stargate becomes (other than a generic portal that takes you to another place in the universe).

Early SG-1 explored things like the use of a DHD (and what happens when it isn't working). The coordinate system and how a gate works with respect to it. Wormhole travel being only one-way. "Jumping" a wormhole to a different gate. The 38-minute limit. The power requirements of the 8th chevron (and what it does). And so on. Later in the show they moved away from a lot of that in favor of more generic sci-fi — and the show became more generic.

Obviously you can't base a show on technobabble about an event horizon's wattage requirements, or what happens when you plug in the DHD control crystal backwards. But if you ignore those things completely, you're losing your roots.

SGA and SGU moved away from those roots and suffered accordingly. SGA explored the 8th-chevron concept a little and had a "38-minute window" episode. And I LOVE the "midway station" concept, which is an example of taking known gate lore and getting creative. But even those were usually limited to SG1 crossovers. Aside from that, the gate was just a generic portal.

SGU was worse. Obviously it explored the 9th-chevron concept ... a little. Eli's deduction that got them to Destiny was based on known gate lore. And one time they held a gate open by having Eli stick his arm in it. That was about it. Otherwise, again, it was a generic portal device used to hop from ship to planet.

I'm not even sure a Stargate is supposed to work the way SGU used it. A lot of the hops appeared to be in-system, which is wrong. It's hard to tell because they discussed it so little.

Don't get me wrong-- I liked SGU despite its flaws. And there's nothing inherently wrong with the way SGA or SGU used their gates ... but if that's all there is to it, the Stargate concept goes to waste.

 

[GalaxyX]

For a lot of people, O'Neill's humor is a big part of what made the show. Someone once described him this way though... When the show started, he was 90% colonel and 10% humor then towards the end, he was 10% colonel and 90% humor.

I think at the beginning of the series, O'Neill was just a wise cracking character who used sarcasm as defiance, as your examples showed. I think a lot of people liked the character because his personality showed a courage to mock what seemed to be incredibly powered enemies, when no other characters would. In a way it was showing that he wasn't afraid, therefore giving him this "what a badass" aura, where he's not afraid to challenge anyone ego

At the end of the series I think his sarcasm was more bitter, and more antagonistic, which I believe was probably in part because RDA was sick of doing the role and he wanted out.

Still props that he was nice enough to appear occasionally afterwards, even in SG:A and SG:U

There's something to that. I was recently on my way home from a local fantasy convention when the cab driver struck up a conversation with me about Doctor Who. Eventually, the conversation turned to Stargate SG-1. He said he really liked the show but, as a former military officer himself, he felt that O'Neill's flippant attitude was not accurate for a Colonel. He said it might work for a lower rank but you generally don't get to be Colonel unless you are a bit more circumspect & diplomatic.

I think that was part of the charm of the show. Kind of reminds me of House. Show me a real life doctor that can act like a colossal prick to his coworkers/patients like that and yet his attitude always forgiven/ignored for the sake of his brilliance.

Real life is always going to have a social structure that you have to play by if you want to move up the ranks.

I guess TV shows having these types of characters is fun because it's something a lot of us secretly would love to do (like openly mock people we feel are crimping our style, so to speak)

I did not know that a new stargate movie might be made soon.
That is news to me.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=buNc7ZiR0UY

I believe this is Roland Emmerich's and Dean Devlin's attempt at continuing their version of Stargate (with Kurt Russell) while completely ignoring the continuity of all the TV series. In this way it's a "reboot" in the same way nuTrek was a reboot of that series.

So I expect to see O'Neil and Jackson, but the Kurt Russell and James Spader versions.

When they reboot, what about the design? The original Stargate is a mix of Egyptian designs. When they change the backstory, they have to change the gate's look.

But unlike the Enterprise, whose base design can be characterized as a saucer, a neck, an engineering section and two nacelles mounted on pylons, the base design of the Stargate is just a ring. It won't be the same if they change it.

Similar to the T-800 Terminator Endoskeleton. That is absolutely unchangeable, because then it simply won't be the T-800.


And if they also change the water puddle to something else, then there is absolutely no point in calling it "Stargate" anymore. Because then it's just one of those generic imitations where a portal leads a team to another place in the universe, that couldn't use the original stuff for copyright reasons.

I think any movie "reboot" will continue off from the original Roland Emmerich Stargate. So the gates will still be egyptian looking, and a lot of the same concepts will stay the same. But there won't be any of the "lore" created from the TV shows, so no "Goaul'd" or "Asgard". Probably no Carter or Teal'c, etc etc.

Whether such a movie would be successful? I don't know. I guess that depends on how much the general public likes (or even knows about) SG-1/SG-A/SG-U

 

[JarodRussell]

Emmerich already said that Kurt Russell and James Spader won't be in it.

It's funny, I like SGA a lot more than SG1, for similar reasons why I like DS9 a lot more than TNG. And I really love the crossover episodes, and the crossover storyarcs. They never did any of that in Trek. There is no episode where for example Picard, Riker and Data, and Sisko, Dax and Kira work together in a major story. You only have cameos of the subcast for the B plot. But there is plenty of that in the SG1/SGA crossovers.

While I agree that Star Trek was terribly stingy with crossovers, Stargate wasn't that much better. "The Pegasus Project" was the only episode that crossed over more than 1 or 2 characters.

In a show with 4 main characters, that's 50%. And you actually had the leads working together, in substantial stories.

 

[The Borgified Corpse]

It's funny, I like SGA a lot more than SG1, for similar reasons why I like DS9 a lot more than TNG. And I really love the crossover episodes, and the crossover storyarcs. They never did any of that in Trek. There is no episode where for example Picard, Riker and Data, and Sisko, Dax and Kira work together in a major story. You only have cameos of the subcast for the B plot. But there is plenty of that in the SG1/SGA crossovers.

While I agree that Star Trek was terribly stingy with crossovers, Stargate wasn't that much better. "The Pegasus Project" was the only episode that crossed over more than 1 or 2 characters.

In a show with 4 main characters, that's 50%. And you actually had the leads working together, in substantial stories.

Well, when I say 1 or 2 characters, usually the 2nd one was a dinky role like Zelenka or Walter Harriman or something.