Starfleet - war criminals? (Sisko and Starfleet Command)

[Prax]

You have to consider that the period between the end of STVI and Wolf 359 was - so far as we know - an era of relative peace and prosperity for the Federation. Not saying things were perfect; they clearly weren't, but compared to the next 15-20 years things were going pretty damn well for them. Then you have the Borg showing up, Wolf 359, the Maquis rebellion

What about the "Bloody, bloody Cardassian War" where millions died?

I've been listening to the "DS9 Epilogue Podcast" on YouTube lately. It's an episode by episode podcast with two hosts. One is a first time viewer who hasn't seen any other Trek and has no idea what's to come. The other is a second time viewer who hasn't seen the show since airing, and isn't very familiar with other series.

Despite the low production value, I find it quite honest and humorous. They frequently mention Sisko's questionable ethics and temperament, Bashir's questionable medical ethics(Which I had never considered), and so on.

The episodes are about 15-30 mins long. If anyone gives it a go, I'd recommend starting on Emissary.

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It's nice to hear fresh opinions that aren't colored by extensive knowledge of and experience viewing all the Trek shows.

 

[fireproof78]

This. DS9 was often criticized by Trek purists for going against Roddenberry's vision of humanity, but what they miss is that by exploring how humanity reacts when their backs are to the wall, you will almost always get a better story, not to mention learn more than you ever will by exploring humanity when things are going well.

You have to consider that the period between the end of STVI and Wolf 359 was - so far as we know - an era of relative peace and prosperity for the Federation. Not saying things were perfect; they clearly weren't, but compared to the next 15-20 years things were going pretty damn well for them. Then you have the Borg showing up, Wolf 359, the Maquis rebellion, all the turmoil that followed first contact with the Dominion, the war itself, and shortly after the Reman coup seen in Nemesis. And even after that, we know Romulus ends up being destroyed just a few years later.

This is one of the reasons I've always felt that a series exploring the post-Dominion War era would be really interesting. Surely all this turmoil would result in a very different Federation than what was portrayed in early TNG or even TOS, one that would be a perfect analogy for some of the problems facing the real world today.

There was a great scene in another DS9 episode (Past Tense, Part 1) where Bashir and Sisko are walking through the sanctuary district and Bashir openly questions whether, when push comes to shove, humanity is really any different than the Romulans or Cardassians. That if you take away their comforts and put them in a corner, is it simply within humanity's nature to turn to our darker instincts in order to survive.

That the show would go on to explore that question in greater depth during the war is one of the reasons I feel it was such a creative success. ENT season 3 touched on these questions as well, in quite a timely manner given it aired in the immediate aftermath of 9/11 and during the Iraq war.

Personally, I've always felt Trek is at its best when it is asking those questions, and moreover when it's topical and asking them during times when they need to be asked more than ever. In that sense, DS9 was well ahead of its time and makes for better viewing today than it did 20 years ago.

You make some solid points on this topic. I found Sisko's "It's easy to be a saint in paradise" line pretty much a thesis statement for the series.

 

[Tenacity]

Bashir's questionable medical ethics

Making sexual advances on his patients (patients would include people like Jadzia Dax), sometimes he would begin dating his patients after medically improving their lives in significant ways.

Nahhh, no ethical problems there.

 

[Prax]

Yeah, they mention a whole slew of them that I had forgotten about. Jadzia, The girl who can't walk, the girl in Chrysalis, Ezri, The thing with Kern, etc.

It's a pretty lighthearted commentary though.

 

[Nyotarules]

Making sexual advances on his patients (patients would include people like Jadzia Dax), sometimes he would begin dating his patients after medically improving their lives in significant ways.

Nahhh, no ethical problems there.

Why should there be, who else is he going to date, everyone on that station is a potential patient. The same goes for the CMO of a starship.

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

If Bashir is careful, there wouldn't be a problem. Once the medical treatment is concluded, they're not patients anymore. He can't date somebody he is actually treating, but once he is finished treating them, then he has no power over them.

And we already know that Starfleet has no rules against fraternization - as long as it's desired by everyone involved, officers and crew alike can date whoever they want. Even subordinates.

 

[Nyotarules]

Good. Starfleet cannot expect folks to live in space for decades, and live like monks and nuns.

 

[Voth commando1]

You know I've always wondered what having an evening with the captain on the holodeck would be like-Janeway at the end of Renaissance man goes on to the Doctor about a bunch of protocols of how your supposed to act when in a leisure or hang out situation with the captain.

I mean that's like partying with either your boss or worse your superior officer-which would be pretty awkward. I'm not sure I'd know how to handle myself.

 

[Prax]

Partying with a superior officer is awesome. That's how you get promoted faster. Partying with his/her superior officer is even better.

 

[fireproof78]

You know I've always wondered what having an evening with the captain on the holodeck would be like-Janeway at the end of Renaissance man goes on to the Doctor about a bunch of protocols of how your supposed to act when in a leisure or hang out situation with the captain.

I mean that's like partying with either your boss or worse your superior officer-which would be pretty awkward. I'm not sure I'd know how to handle myself.

Given the way Janeway acted, it seems like the Captain is a special class when it comes to social interactions and dating.

Other officers do not seem to have that concern, nor does it seem to be addressed with other officers in the same command.

Making sexual advances on his patients (patients would include people like Jadzia Dax), sometimes he would begin dating his patients after medically improving their lives in significant ways.

Nahhh, no ethical problems there.

Not to mention "Profit and Lace..."

Actually, you know what, let's not mention that episode. That raises a lot of ethical questions.

 

[Spot261]

If Bashir is careful, there wouldn't be a problem. Once the medical treatment is concluded, they're not patients anymore. He can't date somebody he is actually treating, but once he is finished treating them, then he has no power over them.

And we already know that Starfleet has no rules against fraternization - as long as it's desired by everyone involved, officers and crew alike can date whoever they want. Even subordinates.

Somewhat complex if it's an ongoing relationship and they get sick

 

[Prax]

Aren't a lot of these cases where Bashir continues treating them while dating them?

 

[Paradise City]

Sisko the war criminal, Bashir taking advantage of women in the surgery. What a crooked lot these people are.

 

[Voth commando1]

And people wonder I'm an Eddington fan.

 

[Spot261]

Because he's a different scum bag?

 

[Voth commando1]

Because he's a hero, he's larger than life(plays music) no because he's a freedom fighter, a champion, litteratuer, and all around awesome example of eternal principle embodied in flesh.

 

[Spot261]

Lol, we so watched a different show

 

[Crazyewok]

I imagine Roddenberry would have been appalled, the only worse example of DS9's writers defiling Roddenberry is hard time and O'brien's statements at the end.

How I hate this line of argument.

Roddenberry was not a visionary or some enlightend individual.

He was a typical money hungry hollywood writer that hit on one good idea.
And even that idea he nearly ruined with tge first two seasons of TNG.

 

[fireproof78]

Because he's a hero, he's larger than life(plays music) no because he's a freedom fighter, a champion, litteratuer, and all around awesome example of eternal principle embodied in flesh.

I forgot that Captain Kirk had appeared on DS9.

 

[Tenacity]

Somewhat complex if it's an ongoing relationship and they get sick

If the relationship came first, not so complex.

If there was a prior abusive relationship that ended in he said/she said accusations, then one needed to be treated by the other (no other option) ... now that would be complex.

He was a typical money hungry hollywood writer that hit on one good idea.

Might be able to exchange "money" for "sex" in that sentence.