Starfleet - war criminals? (Sisko and Starfleet Command)

Discussion in 'Star Trek: Deep Space Nine' started by Baxten, Mar 26, 2017.

  1. Spot261

    Spot261 Vice Admiral Admiral

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    Of course moral standards do alter in wartime, after all it becomes not only acceptable but an expectation to kill people. However that does not mean there aren't lines which should be maintained.

    In practice I think few people truly keep to what we would term justified or humane behaviour in warfare, particularly in the way they treat non combatants. Rape, torture and indiscriminate murder are common place and history suggests that peer pressure, conformity, adherence to authority, tribalism, stress and the breakdown of social conventions mean few people truly go through war as idealised dignified exemplars of humanity, which is precisely why I would almost always argue in favour of peaceful alternatives.

    War really is hell and whilst there are instances of nobility and heroism the vast majority of it is people dying, suffering, terrorised and being traumatised in ways they will never recover from, shouting in futility for help as their organs pour out into the soil, living in abject fear of the next minute, relationships and families torn apart for no good reason other than to give some inadequate politician or officer a place in history. In fact even in peacetime pretty much any form of violence is unlikely to be anything other than awful and I've seen enough of it to confidently base that on more than Hollywood.

    Having said that the question is whether trek is right to have given us a glimpse of that behaviour (and it is only glimpses, SF are shown as war criminals yes, but only in very specific instances to which are attention is drawn. We do not see routine massacres of civilian populations or PoWs for instance).

    Certainly it does not superficially fit with TNG era idealism, but perhaps by showing us the consequences of warfare it could be said to give a clear argument why those values do in fact matter. Yes Sisko's actions on several occasions are either questionable or outright horrendous, but what troubles me more from an ethical viewpoint is that those choices are invariably shown to be effective. Eddington is caught because of the biogenic weapon. ITPM leads to the Romulans joining the war. TSOAR558 has the cloaked landmines break the deadlock and thus save SF lives.

    The only times that spring to mind wherein a warcrime is commited or attempted and leads to disaster is the joint Romulan-Cardassian attack on the Founder homeworld, which crucially from a story telling perspective was NOT carried out by the protagonist.

    In a sense I am glad trek burst the bubble, but the manner in which DS9 seemingly went beyond realism in order to outright lambast the TNG idealism does trouble me occasionally.
     
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  2. Timo

    Timo Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    I'm curious - why is the Romulan-Cardassian attack on the Founders a war crime?

    We get no hint that it would involve use of weapons or methods banned by treaties. The victims are not supposed to be noncombatants. We have no indication that a state of declared war would not exist between the sides. The degree of destruction would certainly meet the criteria of military necessity, and the hopefully resulting genocide of the Changeling species would be an incidental byproduct of the necessity.

    So most of today's concerns would fail to apply - and of course future definitions of war crimes would reflect the times, requiring onscreen explication in order to be meaningful.

    Timo Saloniemi
     
  3. Bad Thoughts

    Bad Thoughts Vice Admiral Admiral

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    I have no problem with people taking issue with the morality of actions in DS9, but using TNG as a moral ruler is laughable. Yes, there were moments when someone made the wrong choice. What is problematic is that TNG was shaped by avoiding difficult moral issues and by seeking fantastic solutions in order to produce moral outcomes. I would like to say that when I ask someone to help get the jackboot off my neck, the response is not, "Is it a foreign jackboot or native jackboot?" The more troubling truth is that under Roddenbery's interference, such questions would be whitewashed from the show, never to be addressed in a way that allows our heroes to take direct action against the worst atrocities for fear of interference.
     
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  4. Spot261

    Spot261 Vice Admiral Admiral

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    I never saw TNG as a show that was intended to preach (although at times it did), I saw it as one intended to make you think. Isn't the fact we're having this conversation at all a sign that it did it's job?
     
  5. Bad Thoughts

    Bad Thoughts Vice Admiral Admiral

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    If it wants to make us think, great. However, I think that Roddenberry (as well as many fans) use TNG to moralize, where we are almost asked,"what would Picard do?", in bumper sticker fashion.

    And the comparisons to Picard are rife, are they not?
     
  6. Spot261

    Spot261 Vice Admiral Admiral

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    TNG at it's worst, maybe, although I'm not sure I watch Picard and think "that's the right thing to do because he did it", more "How did he arrive at that conclusion and how would I have approached it?"
     
  7. Nyotarules

    Nyotarules Vice Admiral Moderator

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    You've been reading the Star Trek Vanguard series where Starfleet FUBAR big time!
     
  8. Prax

    Prax Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    Genocide seems to be an obsession of Trek writers. Ok, I'm exaggerating, but look at all the examples:
    • Sheliak incident
    • Rana IV incident
    • Iborg incident
    • planned attack on the founder's drifting homeworld
    • Garak's plan to destroy the founder's homeworld
    • The fate of the Maquis
    • Weyoun's idea for earth
    • The morphogenic virus
    • Species 8472's planned method of retaliation
    • Icheb's Parent's and people's long term plan of defense
    • Admiral Janeway's virus
    • what earth supposedly did to the Xindi in the future
    • What the Xindi try to do to earth
    I'm sure there are more examples where this comes up in some manner, but these are off the top of my head.

    Here's a question: When the prophets helped Sisko against the huge dominion fleet in the wormhole, did they just "transport" the fleet back to the Gamma Quadrant, or did they actually send them to the cornfield?:eek:
     
  9. Timo

    Timo Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    Many of those just deal with terminating all life on a given planet. That seldom terminates a genus as such - it's akin to leveling a town today while leaving most of the nation intact.

    It's not as if the non-humanoid life on the planet would be much of a collateral loss, either. Apparently, most planets are just copies of Earth (or, more probably, of some unknown original) in terms of flora and fauna - the result of civilization-generations upon civilization-generations of terraforming.

    Given the nature of the Prophets, the Jem'Hadar may well have ended up in another time instead. Or may end up in another time. Or may end up having ended up in another time. Or something.

    Timo Saloniemi
     
  10. Nyotarules

    Nyotarules Vice Admiral Moderator

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    ^They were sent to the Nexus as Christmas tree ornaments
     
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  11. Prax

    Prax Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    Numbers 3, 4, 5, 7, 8, 9, 10, 12, and 13 would fall under "wiping out a species" or in one case, all species. Many of the rest would fall under "killing every member of _______ civilization." So whatever those things are defined as, they come up in Trek often enough.
     
  12. ichab

    ichab Commodore Commodore

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    If you're willing to die for that great. But what gives you the right to make that decision for millions of people?

    Hence why you should never claim to be a saint in the first place. :shrug:
     
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  13. velour

    velour Commander Red Shirt

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    The irony of Sisko's desire to take down Section 31 was that he became his own section 31 when he carried out his disinformation operation on the Romulan senator. Who needs the actual S31, when a Starfleet officer can be his own S31.

    Maybe by the 23rd century and beyond, weapons of genocidal and planetary destruction are widely available, like the Genesis torpedo -- as the Klingons called it. Genocide and planetary destruction may have become a realistic threat. Also, the thinking might be that species may be more comfortable and willing to wipe out an alien species.

    I read another thread that dealt with this matter. The prophets may have made a huge profit by selling the Jem Hadar fleet as scrap metal to the Ferenghis.:lol::p Sorry, I just had to mention it.
     
  14. Voth commando1

    Voth commando1 Commodore Commodore

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    I seriously believe the prophets rewired just about all the Ferengi's brains there is no way they would have accepted Zek's reforms so quickly otherwise.
     
  15. Prax

    Prax Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    ^RIGHT?? And what happened to Brunt? He went from a dedicated enforcer of Ferengi orthodoxy to this passive guy, totally accepting of all the things that once "disgusted" him.
     
  16. fireproof78

    fireproof78 Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    Neural parasites. It's the only explanation.
     
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  17. Voth commando1

    Voth commando1 Commodore Commodore

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    The prophets doubly rewired his mind.

    Prophet motive might not be the most well remembered or liked episode but given the evolution of Ferengi society it seems like the prophets did more than a little rewiring.
     
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  18. Jay Everington

    Jay Everington Lieutenant Junior Grade Red Shirt

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    This. DS9 was often criticized by Trek purists for going against Roddenberry's vision of humanity, but what they miss is that by exploring how humanity reacts when their backs are to the wall, you will almost always get a better story, not to mention learn more than you ever will by exploring humanity when things are going well.

    You have to consider that the period between the end of STVI and Wolf 359 was - so far as we know - an era of relative peace and prosperity for the Federation. Not saying things were perfect; they clearly weren't, but compared to the next 15-20 years things were going pretty damn well for them. Then you have the Borg showing up, Wolf 359, the Maquis rebellion, all the turmoil that followed first contact with the Dominion, the war itself, and shortly after the Reman coup seen in Nemesis. And even after that, we know Romulus ends up being destroyed just a few years later.

    This is one of the reasons I've always felt that a series exploring the post-Dominion War era would be really interesting. Surely all this turmoil would result in a very different Federation than what was portrayed in early TNG or even TOS, one that would be a perfect analogy for some of the problems facing the real world today.

    There was a great scene in another DS9 episode (Past Tense, Part 1) where Bashir and Sisko are walking through the sanctuary district and Bashir openly questions whether, when push comes to shove, humanity is really any different than the Romulans or Cardassians. That if you take away their comforts and put them in a corner, is it simply within humanity's nature to turn to our darker instincts in order to survive.

    That the show would go on to explore that question in greater depth during the war is one of the reasons I feel it was such a creative success. ENT season 3 touched on these questions as well, in quite a timely manner given it aired in the immediate aftermath of 9/11 and during the Iraq war.

    Personally, I've always felt Trek is at its best when it is asking those questions, and moreover when it's topical and asking them during times when they need to be asked more than ever. In that sense, DS9 was well ahead of its time and makes for better viewing today than it did 20 years ago.
     
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  19. Peach Wookiee

    Peach Wookiee Cuddly Mod of Doom Moderator

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    DS9 made a lot more sense to me post-9/11.
     
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  20. Nyotarules

    Nyotarules Vice Admiral Moderator

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    This is why I find the JJverse interesting. Vulcan the moral center of the Federation, influence is drastically diminished, either some other race will step into the breach or the Federation loses its moral compass completely and is just one step above the Romulans and Klingons when it comes to morality. Will planets like The Trill, Betazed etc that were part of the TNG era even join such a Federation?