Starfleet - war criminals? (Sisko and Starfleet Command)

[Baxten]

DS9: "In the Pale Moonlight"

GARAK: It would mean calling in all my favours, Captain. To do what you're asking would use up every resource I have left on Cardassia. And it may be a very messy, very bloody business. Are you prepared for that?
SISKO: I posted my fourteenth casualty list this morning. I'm already involved in a very messy, very bloody business. And the only way I can see to end it is to bring the Romulans into the war. I am prepared to do whatever it takes to accomplish that goal, but I can't do it alone. I need help. Now, are you in or out?
[. . .]
GARAK: If you want to guarantee that we obtain evidence of a Dominion plan to attack the Romulans, I suggest that we manufacture that evidence ourselves.
[. . .]
SISKO: You realise I can't authorise a thing like this on my own. I'll have to clear it with Starfleet Command.
[. . .]
GARAK: [. . .] I've located a gentleman willing to sell us a genuine optolythic data rod.
[. . .]
SISKO: How much does he want?
GARAK: I'm afraid he's not interested in latinum. The gentleman in question has requested to be compensated with two hundred litres of biomimetic gel.
[. . .]
BASHIR: Captain, biomimetic gel is an extremely dangerous compound, as you know. I can't release it without at least some idea of where it's going. In the wrong hands, it could be used to make biogenic weapons, or for illegal replication experiments, or to develop organic explosives.
SISKO: Perhaps I didn't make myself clear, Doctor. This is not a request, it's an order. You will package eighty five litres of biomimetic gel for interstellar transport and deliver them to cargo bay three. Is that understood?
[. . .]
SISKO: Maybe I was under more pressure than I realised. Maybe it really was starting to get to me. But I was off the hook. Starfleet Command had given the plan their blessing and I thought that would make things easier. But I was the one who had to make it happen. I was the one who had to look Senator Vreenak in his eye and convince him that a lie was the truth.
[. . .]
VREENAK: It's a fake!

[. . .]
WORF: Captain, we just received word from Starfleet Intelligence that a Romulan shuttlecraft carrying a high ranking senator has just been destroyed.
SISKO: Which Senator?
WORF: Senator Vreenak.
[. . .]
GARAK: [. . .] You see, when the Tal Shiar finishes examining the wreckage of Vreenak's shuttle, they'll find the burnt remnants of a Cardassian optolythic data rod which somehow miraculously survived the explosion. After painstaking forensic examination, they'll discover that the rod contains a recording of a high level Dominion meeting at which the invasion of Romulus was being planned.
SISKO: And then they'll discover that it is a fraud!
GARAK: No, I don't think they will, because any imperfections in the forgery will appear to be a result of the explosion. . . .
[. . .]
SISKO: At oh eight hundred hours, station time, the Romulan Empire formally declared war against the Dominion. They have already struck fifteen bases along the Cardassian border. [. . .] So I lied, I cheated, I bribed men to cover the crimes of other men. I am an accessory to murder. But most damning thing of all, I think I can live with it. And if I had to do it all over again, I would [. . .], so I will learn to live with it. Because I can live with it. I can live with it. Computer, erase that entire personal log.​

 

[JirinPanthosa]

That's the point of the episode, to ask the question whether 'In time of war the law falls silent', and whether there exists extreme enough danger that such crimes are necessary if the destruction of your entire civilization is at risk.

 

[BillJ]

I'd have done taken the same actions as Sisko, I would've also used the computer virus on the Borg.

I may end up in jail, and history may judge me harshly, but they'll be around to judge me.

But yes, they are war criminals.

 

[Jbarney]

I pretty much agree. In these cases they are war criminals, but the ends justify the means, I guess.

 

[Peach Wookiee]

One of the things I love about Deep Space Nine is that it recognizes that idealism doesn't always work in the real world. At the time of "I, Borg," you had a Federation that was pretty calm for the most part. By the time we got to "In the Pale Moonlight," everything was going crazy. They weren't able to stop a war with diplomacy. Captain Picard had certain luxuries that Captain Sisko did not. And Captain Sisko did the best he could, recognizing himself that if anyone ever found out what he did, he would rightly be in big trouble. He saved the Federation.

 

[TheSublimeGoose]

Also there's the time Sisko utilized bio-weapons on a defenseless planet....

...and just got lucky that he didn't kill anyone.

Seriously, was he assuming the Maquis, all the women and children, were waiting to evacuate the planet?

 

[kkt]

When all that's at risk when telling the truth is the Academy careers of four cadets it's a pretty easy choice.
When it's the future of Earth, the Federation, and all the other Alpha Quadrant civilizations, it's a little harder to just tell the truth and let the chips fall where they may.

 

[velour]

I thought Sisko's use of biogenic weapons against the Maquis was much more egregious than his disinformation ploy used on the Romulan senator.

The Maquis were not an existential threat to the Feds. What made Sisko's use of those weapons so outrageous was that he deliberately targeted civilians, humans no less.

The disinformation ploy, I found to be a brilliant covert operation; although I can see how it could be seen as morally bankrupt to falsely bring another party into war. In any case, the killing of the Romulan senator was clearly murder. A lot of moral ambiguity, but the ends justified the means.

There is another thread in this forum that goes something like where was so and so during the Dominion War. Where the heck was the pure-as-the-driven-snow Picard? If that man had been in charge of the war effort, the peoples of the alpha quadrant would be enslaved and speaking Dominion or be extinct.

 

[TheSublimeGoose]

I thought Sisko's use of biogenic weapons against the Maquis was much more egregious than his disinformation ploy used on the Romulan senator.

The Maquis were not an existential threat to the Feds. What made Sisko's use of those weapons so outrageous was that he deliberately targeted civilians, humans no less.

The disinformation ploy, I found to be a brilliant covert operation; although I can see how it could be seen as morally bankrupt to falsely bring another party into war. In any case, the killing of the Romulan senator was clearly murder. A lot of moral ambiguity, but the ends justified the means.

There is another thread in this forum that goes something like where was so and so during the Dominion War. Where the heck was the pure-as-the-driven-snow Picard? If that man had been in charge of the war effort, the peoples of the alpha quadrant would be enslaved and speaking Dominion or be extinct.

Yeah, the bio-weapon use should've resulted in a court-martial (where Sisko would be found guilty, along with the senior officers on the bridge at that time, who went along willingly with the order). No matter how much I like Sisko, my jaw literally dropped when he gave that order- I thought he was bluffing until it was revealed he actually did it.

And I agree with you again, the Romulan ploy was pretty brilliant- even though Garak was the true brains behind the plot.

Side note- Bernd Schneider over at his wonderful EAS site does mention a few things I disagree with. One being that he compares Captain Sisko's bio-weapon use to Captain Archer's destruction of the Xindi moon outpost (the one that would've reported the Enterprise's position). That's bullshit. The latter action was a totally justified one. That outpost presented a clear and direct threat to Archer's crew, vessel, and mission- and therefore, the survival of Earth herself.

...whereas Sisko would've been whiney if Eddington got away. That's what the consequences of Sisko's inaction would've been.

edit: a word

 

[USS Meredith]

...whereas Sisko would've been whiney if Eddington got away. That's what the consequences of Sisko's inaction would've been.

I wouldn't go that far. The Maquis, despite the intervention of the Dominion, were back in a big way - not necessarily in number, but in strength. Thanks to Eddington, they vacated an entire Cardassian settlement with a bio-weapon, and they could easily keep it up - and I think the implication is clear that they intended to. You can argue the rashness or morality of Sisko's choice all you want, but he did it for more than pride - he put an end to the Maquis. Period.

 

[TheSublimeGoose]

I wouldn't go that far. The Maquis, despite the intervention of the Dominion, were back in a big way - not necessarily in number, but in strength. Thanks to Eddington, they vacated an entire Cardassian settlement with a bio-weapon, and they could easily keep it up - and I think the implication is clear that they intended to. You can argue the rashness or morality of Sisko's choice all you want, but he did it for more than pride - he put an end to the Maquis. Period.

So the end justify the means?

And even then, in certain cases, yes I do believe the end justify the means. But the Maquis didn't require war-crime-equivalent actions.

That's like the US nuking Afghanistan because it gets sick of dealing with the insurgent problem.

 

[USS Meredith]

So the end justify the means?

Well, no, not always - I'm not arguing in favor of Sisko's methods, I'm just saying that his inaction would definitely have had more of an effect than "Sisko being whiney that Eddington got away."

Although, Sisko probably would say that the ends do justify the means - that's what defines him as a Captain, and honestly why he's my favorite. He says it himself in this episode - he's willing to play the part of the villain if that's how things need to be to get done.

 

[Bad Thoughts]

That's like the US nuking Afghanistan because it gets sick of dealing with the insurgent problem.

First, that sort of tit-for-tat thinking often carries in war. The Germans had the audacity to bomb British cities and towns? The British and Americans then bombed German cities and towns many time over.

Second, Sisko poisoned a Maquis colony: not former Federation or human. Of course, how easy it was to determine the affiliations of such planets (or what such affiliation might mean) is never revealed in the episode. But if a planet could be determined to have a very strong enemy presence, it might be considered a target, regardless of the presence of "civilians."

There are still questionable aspects to what Sisko did, but it is much more gray than you suggest. And if he actions in For the Uniform or Pale Moonlight seem very un-Starfleet, I would ask you to watch Private Little War and Enterprise Incident.

 

[Voth commando1]

Also there's the time Sisko utilized bio-weapons on a defenseless planet....

...and just got lucky that he didn't kill anyone.

Seriously, was he assuming the Maquis, all the women and children, were waiting to evacuate the planet?

That's something I just can't believe, the writers didn't want the implication though Sisko was actually responsible for killing lots of people.

As for ITPM it's an example really of self-interest, cynicism and moral bankruptcy. The Romulans were never convinced to join the war on their own interests(rightfully as the argument used would have been self serving) and not only Sisko but the writers I could feel saying "we can live with it" regarding their own cynicism, moral bankruptcy and intellectual philistinism. Not to mention callousness.

As Behr admitted they treated Sisko at the end like a "God" while Janeway receives fierce criticism, Picard is derided, and Archer viewed as a joke this captain who I should say is a poor poor example of the best of Trek and humanity in general.

What lessons did the writers want the viewers to take from this-that intrigue and the violence inevitably associated with such maneuvering is necessary for the defense of civilization?

What an utterly immoral thing to say! This isn't Warhammer 40K and I imagine Roddenberry would have been appalled, the only worse example of DS9's writers defiling Roddenberry is hard time and O'brien's statements at the end.

 

[Spot261]

First, that sort of tit-for-tat thinking often carries in war. The Germans had the audacity to bomb British cities and towns? The British and Americans then bombed German cities and towns many time over.

That doesn't make it right, carpet bombing Dresden is never going to be accepted as justified and the Maquis represented nothing like the threat the Germans did. Nazi Germany was an existential threat, the Maquis a local problem more likely to trigger diplomatic issues with the Cardassians.

Yes that could have caused another Federation Cardassian war and Eddington was in the wrong, but Sisko's actions were monstrous here and driven more by a personal grudge than rational strategy.

But if a planet could be determined to have a very strong enemy presence, it might be considered a target, regardless of the presence of "civilians."

Then target the enemy presence, not sterilise the planet. After all, those civilians are probably the ones least likely to evacuate in time, even if such a thing were possible at all. Evacuating a planet is no small deal and whilst the population was small the Maquis were hardly in a position to deploy a flotilla of starships and ferry them all off.

 

[Bad Thoughts]

That doesn't make it right, carpet bombing Dresden is never going to be accepted as justified and the Maquis represented nothing like the threat the Germans did. Nazi Germany was an existential threat, the Maquis a local problem more likely to trigger diplomatic issues with the Cardassians.

No one who planned or conducted those raids over German cities were ever accused, let alone convicted, of a war crime (that is the subject of this thread, no?).

Then target the enemy presence, not sterilise the planet.

Sisko did not sterilize the planet. What he did was more akin to a Zippo Raid (and other COIN tactics that might be currently outdated).

After all, those civilians are probably the ones least likely to evacuate in time, even if such a thing were possible at all. Evacuating a planet is no small deal and whilst the population was small the Maquis were hardly in a position to deploy a flotilla of starships and ferry them all off.

Whether or not it is believable, the episode states that the settlers on both sides had the ability and time to evacuate.

 

[doylem1]

The use of Bio-logical weapons against the Maquis should have finished Sisko's career in Starfleet right there.

He poisoned a world because of a personal vendetta towards a man who he felt betrayed his uniform while on his watch.

Although no one died that we know of, his actions were worse than those of Ben Maxwell as Maxwell was targeting military targets, Sisko targeted civilians.

 

[Voth commando1]

Sisko wasn't mad Eddington betrayed his "uniform" but that Eddington played him for a fool. He admitted as much to Dax.

 

[TheSublimeGoose]

First, that sort of tit-for-tat thinking often carries in war. The Germans had the audacity to bomb British cities and towns? The British and Americans then bombed German cities and towns many time over.

Second, Sisko poisoned a Maquis colony: not former Federation or human. Of course, how easy it was to determine the affiliations of such planets (or what such affiliation might mean) is never revealed in the episode. But if a planet could be determined to have a very strong enemy presence, it might be considered a target, regardless of the presence of "civilians."

There are still questionable aspects to what Sisko did, but it is much more gray than you suggest. And if he actions in For the Uniform or Pale Moonlight seem very un-Starfleet, I would ask you to watch Private Little War and Enterprise Incident.

You're comparing raids that were planned up and down the chain of command, authorized by numerous sources, etc... to ONE random captain deciding it would be cool to make a planet uninhabitable.

If anything, this was just really, really bad writing.

 

[Spot261]

No one who planned or conducted those raids over German cities were ever accused, let alone convicted, of a war crime (that is the subject of this thread, no?).

Er, no, it isn't. Starfleet's track record is.

Secondly a lack of legal consequences in war means little, the vast majority of wrongs that occur go untried, especially for the winning side. Nonetheless what happened was wrong and the British government, have formally apologised, as has the Queen.

Sisko did not sterilize the planet. What he did was more akin to a Zippo Raid (and other COIN tactics that might be currently outdated).

Yes he did, or at least he made the planet uninhabitable, which is above and beyond the consequences of a "zippo raid" (which were awful enough). One necessitates rebuilding one's home, the other ensures you'll never be able to do so again.

Whether or not it is believable, the episode states that the settlers on both sides had the ability and time to evacuate

No, at best we get a character's belief they would be able to evacuate in time. Sisko had no way of knowing that for sure. The fact they apparently did (we can't be sure - even a bio signs scan is fallible as we have seen many times) means nothing in that regard. The fact remains Sisko was gambling they could and made frankly next to no effort to confirm this.