^What's wrong with Infinite Diversity in Infinite Combinations?
Starfleet philosophy?
- Thread starter VulcanGuy
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Just seems childish to me to start calling people 'racist' and other name calling to people who have no malevolent intentions and only want to be around people like themselves.
The desire to only be around people who are like yourself is racist, because it inherently implies that you think your own "kind" is superior to other kinds. Furthermore, it is primitive and weak -- like a royal dynasty whose members only marry within their own family tree, the desire not to mix with those who are different will inevitably lead to your group withering and dying away. People need those who are different to infuse new ideas and new energies and new strengths in a constantly-changing world.
And what does it matter if Trotsky invented the word "racism?" It's still a valid description of an evil and primitive ideology.
Only because humans seem to outbreed everybody else (and cost less to makeup).
I think part of the problem is that different species evolving on differnt planets would have different ecological needs.
Even on earth, you'd have a hard time putting every vertibrate species on the same ship and have everybody be comfortable. The elephant would have a hard time not squashing the mouse, the mongoose would always be fighting the cobra, the zebra would be cold, and the polar bear would get heat stroke. Add to that the different gravatational and atmospheric requirements, and it's practically impossible to have all these species in one ship working together. It's just not possible -- outside of very similar species the differences would be too big to accomadate everyone.
Even on earth, you'd have a hard time putting every vertibrate species on the same ship and have everybody be comfortable. The elephant would have a hard time not squashing the mouse, the mongoose would always be fighting the cobra, the zebra would be cold, and the polar bear would get heat stroke. Add to that the different gravatational and atmospheric requirements, and it's practically impossible to have all these species in one ship working together. It's just not possible -- outside of very similar species the differences would be too big to accomadate everyone.
I don't even know about that. Like we said, it's generally accepted that that Starfleet may practice or have practiced species segregation on its starships, but that's very different from saying that Humans are the ones who keep the Federation strong and secure.
For one thing, of the three Federation Presidents we've seen in Star Trek (the one in The Voyage Home, the one in The Undiscovered Country, and Jaresh-Inyo in DS9's "Homefront"/"Paradise Lost"), only one of them appeared to be Human, the one from TVH. He's named Hiram Roth in the novels. The one from TUC, who is named Ra-ghoratreii, is an alien whose species is described as Efrosian in backstage sources and in the novels. Jaresh-Inyo is a Grazerite. Even if we expand our pallet to include Jonathan Archer, whose barely-legible bio from "In A Mirror, Darkly" established that he became an early Federation President in the mid-2180s, that's still a full 50% of all known canonical presidents who are non-Human.
If we expand our pallet to include Presidents established in the novels, the percentage gets even smaller:
* Haroun al-Rashid of United Earth (Human male)
* T'Maran of the Confederacy of Vulcan (Vulcan female)
* Avaranthi sh'Rothress of the Andorian Empire (Andorian shen)
* Jonathan Archer of United Earth (Human male)
* Madza Bral of Trill (Trill female, joined status unestablished)
* Kenneth Wescott of United Earth (Human male)
* Lorne McLaren (Human male)
* Hiram Roth of United Earth (Human male)
* Ra-ghoratreii of Efros (Efrosian male)
* Gan Laikan of Alpha Centauri (Human male)
* Thelianaresth th'Vorothishria of the Andorian Empire (Andorian thaan)
* T'Pragh of the Confederacy of Vulcan (Vulcan female)
* Amitra of Pandril (Pandrilite female)
* Jaresh-Inyo of Grazer (Grazerite male)
* Min Zife of Bolarus (Bolian male)
* Nanietta Bacco of Cestus (Human female)
So, out of 16 Presidents, only 7 are Human. That's only about 43% of known Federation Presidents. And at least two of those Humans aren't even from Earth!
Furthermore, we know from TOS's "Journey to Babel," TNG's "Sarek" and "Unification," and various DS9 episodes that some very high-ranking officials in the Federation government who were influential for generations included Sarek and Spock of Vulcan and Curzon Dax of Trill. We've never heard of a Human possessing their level of long-term influence on the Federation government.
Earth can certainly be said to be the political center of the Federation, what with its being the capital planet and all, but you might recall that VOY's "Hope and Fear" establishes that large populations of alien immigrants live on Earth, too.
Returning to the question of Starfleet: Starfleet is comprised of hundreds and hundreds of ships divided into dozens of fleets covering thousands of light-years' worth of space. Obviously the fact that the she's we've seen have been mostly Human-populated doesn't mean that the majority of Starfleet is.
It is probably fair to say that Humans are responsible for the Federation's inception, because it was Humans who managed to persuade Vulcans, Andorians, and Tellarites to put aside their differences and unite as one people. This would certainly seem to be Humanity's special strength. Ironically, the character Delen on the show Babylon 5 probably put it best: Humans build communities. They were able to persuade other races to unite in partnership. It's something Humans should be commended for, but that doesn't mean that they dominate the Federation. After all, if your special skill is persuading people to become your partners, then your strength really comes from those partnerships.
I repeat, again, firmly: Diversity is strength and homogeneity is weakness. The Federation is stable and strong because of its many different species working together in mutual partnership, not because of any one species.
ETA:
You bring up an excellent point that for some species, it would be a huge challenge to effectively mix large numbers of individuals with wildly divergent ecological needs. It's probably fair to say that a ship primarily designed for land mammals, for instance, would have problems strongly integrating, say, members of aquatic species. But to say that it would be impossible is, I think, pre-mature and not well-thought-out.
Again, check out the Star Trek: Titan book series for a glimpse into how species with wildly divergent ecological needs can be integrated into one ship.
^I certainly doubt it's humans alone that keep the Federation running.
In fact, we've seen what happens to a human-run interstellar state--structural problems aside, it collapses by the early 24th century, victim of an alliance of Cardassians, Klingons and Bajorans.
Someone in some novel somewhere did a ship full of Hortas (it might well have been Duane). I could see why they'd want their own ship, inasmuch as they 1)can't stand, 2)don't appear to have a spoken language anything like ours,* 3) don't have hands, and 4)are full of acid. Their ships are probably all jeffries tubes filled with rock and chemical interfaces.
(*Which begs the question how they have a name. My pet theory on this is horta is the Vulcan word for Duane's Vulcan sandworms. But that's pure speculation. -_-)
Heck, maybe Vulcans get their own ships just because only a few from the northern and southern poles or from colonies can even stand the cold on human-majority ships.
However, since I don't want to presume Roddenberry's evolved humans don't want aliens on their ships, and probably make an effort to get aliens on their ships, the significant human majority on starships we've seen is explicable only by a human plurality in the population, or a predisposition toward military/exploratory service that other species don't possess, genetically or culturally. I don't prefer the latter explanation, so I assume humans breed at a faster rate and have a bigger population, which is supported somewhat (we don't become fertile only once every seven years or emerge from a barren, desert world, we don't need four people to make a baby, we aren't the poor, biologically condemned Ocampa, and we see tons of human colonies all over the place, but comparatively few Vulcan, Andorian, Tellarite ones). It may not be everyone's cup of tea, but it's a reasonable explanation that doesn't fall back on a human-centric prejudice.
In fact, we've seen what happens to a human-run interstellar state--structural problems aside, it collapses by the early 24th century, victim of an alliance of Cardassians, Klingons and Bajorans.
Someone in some novel somewhere did a ship full of Hortas (it might well have been Duane). I could see why they'd want their own ship, inasmuch as they 1)can't stand, 2)don't appear to have a spoken language anything like ours,* 3) don't have hands, and 4)are full of acid. Their ships are probably all jeffries tubes filled with rock and chemical interfaces.
(*Which begs the question how they have a name. My pet theory on this is horta is the Vulcan word for Duane's Vulcan sandworms. But that's pure speculation. -_-)
Heck, maybe Vulcans get their own ships just because only a few from the northern and southern poles or from colonies can even stand the cold on human-majority ships.
However, since I don't want to presume Roddenberry's evolved humans don't want aliens on their ships, and probably make an effort to get aliens on their ships, the significant human majority on starships we've seen is explicable only by a human plurality in the population, or a predisposition toward military/exploratory service that other species don't possess, genetically or culturally. I don't prefer the latter explanation, so I assume humans breed at a faster rate and have a bigger population, which is supported somewhat (we don't become fertile only once every seven years or emerge from a barren, desert world, we don't need four people to make a baby, we aren't the poor, biologically condemned Ocampa, and we see tons of human colonies all over the place, but comparatively few Vulcan, Andorian, Tellarite ones). It may not be everyone's cup of tea, but it's a reasonable explanation that doesn't fall back on a human-centric prejudice.
That sounds like a line straight out of the mouth of the mainstream media. Just because someone wants to be with other people of their own kind doesn't mean they look down on others or hate others. Perhaps they simply love their heritage or want to be people of like minds and interests. Don't people have this freedom? If you create laws or in any way force them to be with others of another kind you are taking away their freedom.
My personal belief is that all peoples and cultures have a right to survive. For example, the people of Tibet have an inherent right to preserve their people and traditions from the massive Chinese immigration that is destroying their unique and beautiful culture. This is something we should cherish in an effort to preserve bio-diversity.
The galaxy as a whole would be very dull if everyone looked the same.
Wanting to be around someone "of like mind and interest" is very different from wanting to avoid all interaction with members of other racial, linguistic, or ethnic groups, as is wanting to preserve your heritage. Wanting to be around some of your own group a portion of the time is not the same thing as wanting to only ever be around members of your own group.
A heritage can be perfectly well-served without need to resort to segregation.
No one said anything about forcing someone to interact with anyone they didn't want to. Sure, everyone has a right to be racist if they want to be, provided that they do not act to violate someone else's rights. So, yes, certainly you have every legal right as an individual to avoid all interaction with other ethnic groups, races, nationalities, or linguistic groups. But you're still racist if you do that.
Again, that's a very different question than desiring only to be around people like yourself. Any reasonable person would agree that every culture has a right to continue to exist, and that in life there is a balance that must be had between diversity and conformity. But being around other groups doesn't endanger the existence of your own, your rhetorical slide notwithstanding. (Of course, should we expect any different from the poster who claimed that Africans are a different and less advanced species from Europeans?)
Make no mistake: The desire to be around only those of your own ethnic or racial group is racist. Period.
Tell me about it. It's funny, too, since Star Trek's numerous portrayals of brilliant, talented, heroic men and women who happen to be of African descent fundamentally contradicts that premise.
Every one of your paragraphs included the word racist. Look, can we stop the name calling and continue the thread in the right direction.
As I said in that thread some races can become so different they are no longer considered to be apart of the same species. ie Romulans and Vulcans.
Anyway, I don't have much time and this isn't the topic of the thread. If you want to discuss it further shoot me a PM and I might get back to you.
Back onto it:
I'm really interested in the philosophy of being selfless. How can someone become completely selfless as Starfleet declares itself to be? If say, someone applied for a position as an engineer where 200 others applied and only one person can gain the position. Isn't he being selfish as 199 are missing out on the position?
Because every single premise that you argued was racist.
Vulcans and Romulans are fictional. You tried to claim that Europeans and Africans are different species -- and that Africans are an inferior species to boot. It's a demonstrably false claim, as I noted in that thread.
Tell me, what species am I, since I'm 1/8th Cherokee in addition to being English, Irish, Welsh, French, German, and Finnish? What species are some of my good friends, who have both white and black parents, or black and Native American parents? What species are my friends of Asian descent? What species are my Jewish aunt and cousins? What species is my President?
Where, exactly, does your division of the Human species into imaginary species stop?
You made it the topic of the thread when you started talking about the idea that species segregation is a good thing.
Starfleet never claimed to be completely selfless. What Starfleet clearly does is it channels selfish desires into altruistic purposes.
For what it's worth, Romulans and Vulcans are almost without a doubt not two different species. Circa 2000 years is not enough time even for allopatric speciation, especially not for a population of long-lived beings with technological capability and social organization at least equal to if not superior to modern humans, which if our experience is any judge insulates an organism from the bulk of evolutionary pressures.
If they are, the only explanation is active eugenics, probably including genetic engineering, and there's no good reason to suppose the Roms genetically engineered themselves to become weenie versions of their cousins from a heavier, harder planet.
Incidentally, I hate the damned Romulan makeup from TNG. Just why?
If they are, the only explanation is active eugenics, probably including genetic engineering, and there's no good reason to suppose the Roms genetically engineered themselves to become weenie versions of their cousins from a heavier, harder planet.
Incidentally, I hate the damned Romulan makeup from TNG. Just why?
For what it's worth, Romulans and Vulcans are almost without a doubt not two different species. Circa 2000 years is not enough time even for allopatric speciation, especially not for a population of long-lived beings with technological capability and social organization at least equal to if not superior to modern humans, which if our experience is any judge insulates an organism from the bulk of evolutionary pressures.
If they are, the only explanation is active eugenics, probably including genetic engineering, and there's no good reason to suppose the Roms genetically engineered themselves to become weenie versions of their cousins from a heavier, harder planet.
Incidentally, I hate the damned Romulan makeup from TNG. Just why?
Westmore gave them foreheads because he wanted them to be able to "compete" with the now-foreheaded Klingons.
You keep saying it's racist, but you don't provide a reason why it's a negative thing, like somehow 'racism' with all it's negative connotations is inherently evil.
If you look at the statistics in the USA, 38,000 European women were raped or sexually assaulted by African men last year. European men sexually assaulting African women and the statistic was less than 10, essentially 0. This is a direct result of the evils of forced integration.
Those segregation signs from the 40's and 50's of 'whites only' on top of the drinking fountains were such a horrible crime against human rights and dignities!
Even if you look at the number of lynchings (which is something I would never defend and is something that I would never accept in a society) the total number in the HISTORY of the USA was 5,000. Yet, there are movies and tv shows based on lynching, but we never hear about the poor 38,000 white women who are sexually assaulted every YEAR.
Crime rates, drug use, illegitimacy in African communities were much lower in those times too. Even schools were better because they were able to concentrate on the methods that best suit a certain people.
Anyway, my point is segregation does have its merits and does have many benefits for all people.
Fascinating how you decided to bring the topic up again after trying to get people to hush up about it.
And you're defending racism! Why on Earth are you a Star Trek fan again?
Seriously, if you're going to do that, tell me that my co-workers and friends who are black are inferior. Say it to my face, so to speak. Don't tip-toe around it with random, context-less statistics. Tell me that women I have loved are not human. Tell me that my boss is less worthy than you. Tell me that my President is sub-human. Go ahead. Have the guts to just say it instead of bullshitting around it.
And you're defending racism! Why on Earth are you a Star Trek fan again?
Seriously, if you're going to do that, tell me that my co-workers and friends who are black are inferior. Say it to my face, so to speak. Don't tip-toe around it with random, context-less statistics. Tell me that women I have loved are not human. Tell me that my boss is less worthy than you. Tell me that my President is sub-human. Go ahead. Have the guts to just say it instead of bullshitting around it.
I'm a fan of Star Trek because I love science fiction and exploration based fiction.
Where did I ever say that certain people are inferior? I never said or believe anything you've suggested. You're simply making baseless accusations. Maybe that's what you believe subconsciously, please don't put words in my mouth. Actually, I believe all people are equal as I said earlier in the thread. I don't see how any people can be considered inferior or superior when there are so many ways to evaluate a people. Someone like Paris Hilton who is considered to be the peak of human perfection by many Americans might not be valued so highly in another society.
I simply believe all people have a right to survive. Something as unique and beautiful as say, the Tibetan people have a right to survive and go on and resist massive Chinese immigration that is destroying them, but I guess to you they are and anyone who defends them is evil and racist. Integration of societies often leads to the destruction of both societies and once something is extinct it can never be brought back. If I had only one word to describe myself I would use the word preservationist.
You've obviously been indoctrinated by the mainstream media. To argue with someone that has been brainwashed is like arguing with a brick wall. This is why I didn't want to discuss it.
You said it right here. You said that Africans and Europeans are separate species and that Africans are too inferior for European civilization. And you've made numerous pro-segregation, pro-racial "purity" comments since. (Seriously, you find Trek's greatest inspirational quote to be one where they're imitating Nazis?)
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