Starfleet Logistics and Pon Farr
- Thread starter EEE
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Dorothy Fontana provides quite a bit of info in her novel "Vulcan's Glory", albeit speculative, but considering the source, I still give it a lot of weight.
According to her, Vulcans normally begin experiencing pon farr around the age of twenty. Since Spock had managed to get through the Academy and didn't feel the onset of pon farr, he thought he was in the clear (and T'Pring was already sneaking around with Stonn anyway, so...). Since she also has Spock fooling around with a female Vulcan officer that was on the Enterprise when he was first assigned, that also shows 1) he wasn't necessarily all that attached to T'Pring, and 2) Vulcans get busy any damn time they want. Pon farr is just the only time they have to.
As for the Intrepid, I think we were most likely dealing with a couple hundred married couples for the most part.
To go even further on this matter, I suggest digging up the old album "Inside Star Trek" and paying close attention to Gene Roddenberry's "interview" with Sarek, again played by Mark Lenard. Apparently, it does get easier to overcome the pon farr cycle as a Vulcan gets older (like, past the age of fifty).
According to her, Vulcans normally begin experiencing pon farr around the age of twenty. Since Spock had managed to get through the Academy and didn't feel the onset of pon farr, he thought he was in the clear (and T'Pring was already sneaking around with Stonn anyway, so...). Since she also has Spock fooling around with a female Vulcan officer that was on the Enterprise when he was first assigned, that also shows 1) he wasn't necessarily all that attached to T'Pring, and 2) Vulcans get busy any damn time they want. Pon farr is just the only time they have to.
As for the Intrepid, I think we were most likely dealing with a couple hundred married couples for the most part.
To go even further on this matter, I suggest digging up the old album "Inside Star Trek" and paying close attention to Gene Roddenberry's "interview" with Sarek, again played by Mark Lenard. Apparently, it does get easier to overcome the pon farr cycle as a Vulcan gets older (like, past the age of fifty).
A cartoon in "The Far Side" showed why a Space Shuttle mission couldn't use an all-dog crew: They'd all stick their heads out the windows and burn up on re-entry.
...And once again, let's remember that Kirk felt exceptionally qualified in TMP because he had "five years out there, exploring unknowns" under his belt. The implication would seem to be that very few Starfleet captains of his generation had performed missions of this type.
And since we did see other captains exploring, the exceptional thing about Kirk's mission would have to be its length - and, most probably, its superior length. That is, people like Decker and Tracey must have performed shorter exploration missions, in addition to whatever other missions they might have been tasked with.
I'd hesitate to speculate that the Intrepid wasn't Starfleet. For one thing, Kirk emphasizes that the lost ship probably did everything the same way Kirk himself was planning to do, and still perished. That implies a vessel and crew of roughly similar capabilities, and also of similar doctrines, training and orders.
For another, Vulcans would never name their ship after an emotion, least of all foolhardiness!
Timo Saloniemi
And since we did see other captains exploring, the exceptional thing about Kirk's mission would have to be its length - and, most probably, its superior length. That is, people like Decker and Tracey must have performed shorter exploration missions, in addition to whatever other missions they might have been tasked with.
I'd hesitate to speculate that the Intrepid wasn't Starfleet. For one thing, Kirk emphasizes that the lost ship probably did everything the same way Kirk himself was planning to do, and still perished. That implies a vessel and crew of roughly similar capabilities, and also of similar doctrines, training and orders.
For another, Vulcans would never name their ship after an emotion, least of all foolhardiness!
Timo Saloniemi
Exactly. No indication that a 5 year mission was not standard or that any other ship was on a unique or differing schedule. Starfleet has always been a thinly veiled military organization. And I can assure you that military organizations love standardization.
So it still... falls under being a logical assumption for the purposes of this thread, if nothing else.
That exchange indicates nothing but the difference in experience between Kirk, an experienced Captain and Decker, who had not completed a tour of duty as a Captain.
So it still... falls under being a logical assumption for the purposes of this thread, if nothing else.
I'd actually beg to disagree: Kirk is justifying not just his desirability over Decker, but over all other available Captains as well. Else why would Starfleet agree to the highly nonstandard maneuver of sending a Rear Admiral to command an individual vessel? One who isn't even qualified for the type of ship he's about to command?
It might be that explorer captains are on short supply on Earth at that particular moment. But it would be rather unlikely for that to be the case if all captains did five-year exploration missions...
Timo Saloniemi
And I whole heartedly disagree on that. That aspect would've been in the discussion between Kirk and Nogura.
But Kirk is recounting that very discussion to Scotty. He doesn't need to justify himself over Decker to the engineer: the Scotsman already has stated his reservations about the greenhorn, and is delighted to have Kirk back on the saddle again. He only need explain to Scotty how it came to be that he managed to wrestle the ship for himself, i.e. explain what swayed Nogura.
Timo Saloniemi
Timo Saloniemi
Do your homework. Just look up Theodore Sturgeon's biography, before making wild conjectures. You have never met Kirk or Spock either.
Wild conjectures would also include assuming all starships have the same 5 year missions, because Enterprise did, even though it has never been stated that others do.
Often the simplest explanation is the best. USS Intrepid was stated as a Vulcan crew. Being a logical race, I am sure they made whatever arrangements were necessary for Pon Farr. It was a Federation starship, with a Federation name, manned by a Vulcan crew. Like the poster said, what Vulcan ship would be named for an Earther emotion?
In Spock's case, here are the facts that I know to be canon:
Amok Time-Spock states that he hoped he would be spared the Pon Farr due to his human half; therefore he has not experienced it before. He uses an analogy of salmon to explain it
ST:TSFS: Saavik helps Spock with his first Pon Farr, because it puts him in danger. I don't recall her saying he will die, although I may be wrong.
Actually, that, too, might be considered speculation. As far as we know, Saavik helped Spock because she saw an opportunity for enjoying herself. Prudishness is a human fallacy: Vulcan logic might dictate that wild sex be had whenever one can.
Remember that Vulcans aren't embarrassed about sex as such, not according to "Amok Time" anyway. They are embarrassed about the fact that their mate-choosing rituals aren't logical but instinctual and beastly. There would be no illogical mate-choosing ritual involved in a quickie with an able-bodied if somewhat absent-minded youngster...
Timo Saloniemi
^^^ LOL
From the transcript for Amok Time:
McCoy: Jim, you've got to get Spock to Vulcan.
Kirk: Bones, I will. As soon as this mission is --
McCoy: No, now. Right away. If you don't get him to Vulcan within a week, he'll die. He'll die, Jim.
Kirk: Why ... must he die? Why within eight days? Explain.
McCoy: I don't know.
Kirk: You ... keep saying that. Are you a doctor, or aren't you?
McCoy: There's a growing imbalance of body functions ...as if in our bodies huge amounts of adrenalin ... were constantly being pumped into our bloodstreams. Now I can't trace it down in my biocomps, and Spock won't tell me what it is. But if it isn't stopped somehow, the physical and emotional pressures will simply kill him.
Later in the script:
Spock: You humans have no conception. It strips our minds from us. It brings a madness which rips away ... our veneer of civilization. It is the Pon Farr -- the time of mating. There are precedents in nature, Captain -- The giant eel-birds of Regulus Five,
once each 11 years ... they must return to the caverns where they hatched. On your earth, the salmon ... they must return to that one stream ...where they were born ... to spawn ...or die in trying.
Kirk: But you're not a fish, Mr. Spock. You're --
Spock: No. Nor am I man. I'm a Vulcan. I'd hoped I would be spared this, but the ancient drives are too strong. Eventually, they catch up with us, and we are driven by forces we cannot control ... to return home and take a wife ...or die.
It seems to indicate death, You can view the script at:
http://www.voyager.cz/tos/epizody/35amoktimetrans.htm
From the transcript for Amok Time:
McCoy: Jim, you've got to get Spock to Vulcan.
Kirk: Bones, I will. As soon as this mission is --
McCoy: No, now. Right away. If you don't get him to Vulcan within a week, he'll die. He'll die, Jim.
Kirk: Why ... must he die? Why within eight days? Explain.
McCoy: I don't know.
Kirk: You ... keep saying that. Are you a doctor, or aren't you?
McCoy: There's a growing imbalance of body functions ...as if in our bodies huge amounts of adrenalin ... were constantly being pumped into our bloodstreams. Now I can't trace it down in my biocomps, and Spock won't tell me what it is. But if it isn't stopped somehow, the physical and emotional pressures will simply kill him.
Later in the script:
Spock: You humans have no conception. It strips our minds from us. It brings a madness which rips away ... our veneer of civilization. It is the Pon Farr -- the time of mating. There are precedents in nature, Captain -- The giant eel-birds of Regulus Five,
once each 11 years ... they must return to the caverns where they hatched. On your earth, the salmon ... they must return to that one stream ...where they were born ... to spawn ...or die in trying.
Kirk: But you're not a fish, Mr. Spock. You're --
Spock: No. Nor am I man. I'm a Vulcan. I'd hoped I would be spared this, but the ancient drives are too strong. Eventually, they catch up with us, and we are driven by forces we cannot control ... to return home and take a wife ...or die.
It seems to indicate death, You can view the script at:
http://www.voyager.cz/tos/epizody/35amoktimetrans.htm
Since McCoy was still hauling Spock's marbles at the time, Spock didn't have any of the mental discipline or the telepathic link to trigger pon farr, it's debatable whether or not he actually was undering pon farr, or just another growing pain from his rapid aging, and Saavik misinterpreted his distress.
In other words, "Amok Time" is the most misinterpreted episode in all of Trek lore, bringing us the slight mishmash of ST III and the utter bilge of Voyager's "Blood Fever".
In other words, "Amok Time" is the most misinterpreted episode in all of Trek lore, bringing us the slight mishmash of ST III and the utter bilge of Voyager's "Blood Fever".
I'll do that right after you get a sense of humour. Or get married so you you can understand the symbology involved in the joke.
No, but I have met Mr. Sulu. *grin*
See above messages. They explain the reason for the assumption and that it was an assumption, for the purposes of discussing logistics in a FICTIONAL television show.
Exactly. As I stated, in the back of my brain is that analogy that makes the place important (which should've really screwed up the first Romulans).
Who would she tell it to? Spock? Did he even have language? Why would she bother to tell him to put out or die if he couldn't really understand her? I assume her talking was more for the soothing effect.
For that aspect, I'll give the pass to Leonard Nimoy. In fact, I'd personally buy his take on anything Vulcan over Roddenberry might've said at that point in time.
"We are driven by forces we cannot control. To return home and take a wife. Or die." - Spock in Amok Time
If taken literally, the words "and" and "take" become very meaningful. What has to happen to avoid death hinges on those two words... is it one thing or is it two prerequisites ("and") to avoid death? Does "take a wife" mean sex every seven years or completion of their childhood bonding upon the first Pon Farr?
Why must we assume Spock needed mental discipline (a feature that is entirely lost during the "blood fever") or telepathic links to trigger the pon farr? Those things are unquestionably part of the Vulcan ceremonies of Spock's time. They appear to serve as an attempt to regulate the outcome, to some degree, of what what would otherwise be chaos. But couldn't pon farr be a far older element of Vulcan physiology than the logic of Surak?
We might be talking about the wrong marbles here when it comes to what triggers pon farr.
From Webster's Dictionary: (bold emphasis mine)
Main Entry:as·sume http://javascript<b></b>:popWin('/cgi-bin/audio.pl?assume01.wav=assume')Pronunciation: \ə-ˈsüm\ Function:transitive verb Inflected Form(s):as·sumed; as·sum·ingEtymology:Middle English, from Latin assumere, from ad- + sumere to take — more at consumeDate:15th century 1 a: to take up or in : receive b: to take into partnership, employment, or use2 a: to take to or upon oneself : undertake <assume responsibility> b: put on , don c: to place oneself in <assume a position>3: seize , usurp <assume control>4: to pretend to have or be : feign <assumed an air of confidence in spite of her dismay>5: to take as granted or true : suppose <I assume he'll be there>6: to take over (the debts of another) as one's own
— as·sum·abil·i·ty http://javascript<b></b>:popWin('/cgi-bin/audio.pl?assume02.wav=assumability') \-ˌsü-mə-ˈbi-lə-tē\ noun
— as·sum·able http://javascript<b></b>:popWin('/cgi-bin/audio.pl?assume03.wav=assumable') \-ˈsü-mə-bəl\ adjective
— as·sum·ably http://javascript<b></b>:popWin('/cgi-bin/audio.pl?assume04.wav=assumably') \-blē\ adverb
synonyms assume , affect , pretend , simulate , feign , counterfeit , sham mean to put on a false or deceptive appearance. assume often implies a justifiable motive rather than an intent to deceive <assumed an air of cheerfulness around the patients>. affect implies making a false show of possessing, using, or feeling <affected an interest in art>. pretend implies an overt and sustained false appearance <pretended that nothing had happened>. simulate suggests a close imitation of the appearance of something <cosmetics that simulate a suntan>. feign implies more artful invention than pretend, less specific mimicry than simulate <feigned sickness>. counterfeit implies achieving the highest degree of verisimilitude of any of these words <an actor counterfeiting drunkenness>. sham implies an obvious falseness that fools only the gullible <shammed a most unconvincing limp>.
Or, as my high school Sunday School taught us:
When you assume, you make an ass of u and me. Ass/u/me.
In the movie, Under Siege 2: Dark Territory, the bad guy says, "Assumption is the mother of all fuck ups."
And yet you still assume. This says more about you than it does about me.
As for my personal life, it is none of your business to decide if I should marry, just to understand your drivel. Therefore I shall ask you not to make that mistake again.
Main Entry:as·sume http://javascript<b></b>:popWin('/cgi-bin/audio.pl?assume01.wav=assume')Pronunciation: \ə-ˈsüm\ Function:transitive verb Inflected Form(s):as·sumed; as·sum·ingEtymology:Middle English, from Latin assumere, from ad- + sumere to take — more at consumeDate:15th century 1 a: to take up or in : receive b: to take into partnership, employment, or use2 a: to take to or upon oneself : undertake <assume responsibility> b: put on , don c: to place oneself in <assume a position>3: seize , usurp <assume control>4: to pretend to have or be : feign <assumed an air of confidence in spite of her dismay>5: to take as granted or true : suppose <I assume he'll be there>6: to take over (the debts of another) as one's own
— as·sum·abil·i·ty http://javascript<b></b>:popWin('/cgi-bin/audio.pl?assume02.wav=assumability') \-ˌsü-mə-ˈbi-lə-tē\ noun
— as·sum·able http://javascript<b></b>:popWin('/cgi-bin/audio.pl?assume03.wav=assumable') \-ˈsü-mə-bəl\ adjective
— as·sum·ably http://javascript<b></b>:popWin('/cgi-bin/audio.pl?assume04.wav=assumably') \-blē\ adverb
synonyms assume , affect , pretend , simulate , feign , counterfeit , sham mean to put on a false or deceptive appearance. assume often implies a justifiable motive rather than an intent to deceive <assumed an air of cheerfulness around the patients>. affect implies making a false show of possessing, using, or feeling <affected an interest in art>. pretend implies an overt and sustained false appearance <pretended that nothing had happened>. simulate suggests a close imitation of the appearance of something <cosmetics that simulate a suntan>. feign implies more artful invention than pretend, less specific mimicry than simulate <feigned sickness>. counterfeit implies achieving the highest degree of verisimilitude of any of these words <an actor counterfeiting drunkenness>. sham implies an obvious falseness that fools only the gullible <shammed a most unconvincing limp>.
Or, as my high school Sunday School taught us:
When you assume, you make an ass of u and me. Ass/u/me.
In the movie, Under Siege 2: Dark Territory, the bad guy says, "Assumption is the mother of all fuck ups."
And yet you still assume. This says more about you than it does about me.
As for my personal life, it is none of your business to decide if I should marry, just to understand your drivel. Therefore I shall ask you not to make that mistake again.
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