Starfleet is a Space Navy (military fleet)

[J.T.B.]

It's not a realistic rendition of what a spaceborne military force would actually look like

As opposed to the realistic space war-fighting force depicted in Star Trek?

Really, yes. Navy comes from the latin navigia, which also gives us the word "navigation." Both imply a vessel that moves across the sea. The English word "ship" is derived from the old English and germanic "skif" which means literally "very large boat."

All of which imply a vessel that floats upon the water.

Does an airship float in water? Language adapts words to new purposes. A "space navy" would just be something like a water navy but in space. Like France has an "air army."

Well no.

Sapient.

Sentient is not correct, no matter how commonly used.

Hey, don't bring me down. I know that's right but we were talking Star Trek.

 

[Tenacity]

"Starfleet is not a military organization; its purpose is exploration" ~ Jean-Luc Picard

Okay, now explain away that this quote came from a episode where Picard's superiors assign the Enterprise to a military war game.

A military's primary purpose is defense.

And if the Federation went to war yet again, would Starfleet continue to explore, or would they cease that secondary activity and engage in warfare? The Federation is seemingly at war more often than not, they obviously need a dedicated military to fight it's wars.

Put another way, if Starfleet isn't the Federation's navy/military ... who is?

Yes, militaries have other functions besides defense. But a military's primary function is defense. Starfleet's primary function is not defense. Therefore it is not a military organization.

A militaries primary function, is to do what they're instructed to do.

Disaster relief, building roads, exploring continents and oceans, medical research, diplomacy with foreign leaders, space exploration.

Look at how many active duty military pilots have been assigned to testing space craft, and space exploration.

Oh yes, and sometimes they shoot people too.

 

[GabyBee]

Starfleet's flagship did not participate in the Dominion War. It continued to pursue exploration missions throughout that conflict, as referenced in Star Trek: Insurrection.

Put another way, if Starfleet isn't the Federation's navy/military ... who is?

Who says the Federation has to have a military? There are real world nations on planet Earth today that do not have a military (Costa Rica, for example).

 

[Crazy Eddie]

As opposed to the realistic space war-fighting force depicted in Star Trek?

No, not as "opposed to it," that's literally what Starfleet is. Unrealistic. That's my whole point.

Does an airship float in water? Language adapts words to new purposes.

It COULD, yes. That doesn't mean it WILL. Notice, for example, that the word "spaceship" is used more commonly in science fiction than in the actual practice of space exploration. That, too, is kind of my point.

 

[CorporalClegg]

Does an airship float in water? Language adapts words to new purposes. A "space navy" would just be something like a water navy but in space. Like France has an "air army."

Exactly. In fact, had history gone a little differently, it's very possible that airships would now be doing much more than just peddling tires. They may have even become the primary means of air travel and combat. As such, calling the ensuing would-be organization the Air Navy would have been perfectly acceptable.

"Ship" only implies water within the context of the current, most common application. But the word has become fully inclusive of a lot of things.

"Spaceship" has been around for 120 years. It's now part of the common lexicon. And, while "sea-faring" is still the primary identifier of "ship, both airship and spaceship are listed--as secondary definitions and redirects--in both Webster's and OED. I know; I just looked. (And by "looked" I mean I pulled them down off the shelf.) But that's only because airships went "pop" and spacecraft have remained relatively small. But if someone were to call the shuttle "a spaceship" and if another person immediately felt the need to correct him, everyone else in the room would just think the second guy was being a dick.

Heck, if I were to walk up to random people and start talking about "sand ships," they'd still have some idea what I was on about, even if they'd never read Bradbury. And who knows, there may come a day when all the water is gone and people get around on large sail-driven vessels that glide over the sand. People will call them "ships" and the government organization that utilizes them a navy.

 

[Nerys Myk]

Does an airship float in water? Language adapts words to new purposes. A "space navy" would just be something like a water navy but...IN SPACE!. Like France has an "air army."

FTFY.

 

[Crazy Eddie]

And if the Federation went to war yet again, would Starfleet continue to explore, or would they cease that secondary activity and engage in warfare?

Captain's log, stardate 51474.2. The Defiant has been ordered to investigate a rare subspace compression phenomenon recently discovered in Federation space. This scientific assignment is a welcome change from months of combat duty against the Dominion.​

And this for a vessel that wasn't even designed to be used for scientific studies. So in answer to your question: Yes, Starfleet would continue to explore.

In fact:

Captain's log, stardate 44429.6. We are on a mapping survey near the Cardassian sector. It has been nearly a year since a peace treaty ended the long conflict between the Federation and Cardassia.
​

Guess what the Enterprise-D -- the most powerful ship in the entire Starfleet -- was actually doing during this "long conflict"?

Put another way, if Starfleet isn't the Federation's navy/military ... who is?

They don't have one. Starfleet is good enough in that role that they don't NEED one.

In fact, there are a NUMBER of civilizations in the Trekiverse that manage to get by without an actual military. The civilization on Eminar VII is the most famous example: while they are in a constant state of war, they actually abolished their military centuries ago and have done without one ever since. The Organians, also, have nothing that resembles a military or a regular fighting force. The Borg don't even have a CONCEPT of military -- or politics, for that matter -- and just kinda of do what they do whenever they decide to do it. Species 8472 have no "military" to speak of and the entire group of them function like a swarm of locusts, not unlike the Borg.

The Ocampa have no military at all, and no real weapons and no means to defend themselves other than "hide from the bad guys and hope they go away." The Kazon have no military mainly because they have no real government and they're really just a race of heavily armed space hillbillies. The Vidians have no military, just a whole army of high tech repo men. The hirogen have no military, just a fucking enormous gun club.

The Ferengi have no military, just a shitload of guns they don't really know how to use.

The Talarians ARE a military; they have no civilians.

The Klingon word for "military" is derived from an ancient word that roughly means "people whose heads are still attached to their bodies."

22nd century Vulcan, which is amazingly militaristic even by Star Trek standards, doesn't have anything they'd be willing to call a military.

Look at how many active duty military pilots have been assigned to testing space craft, and space exploration.

NASA is not a military organization.

 

[Baxten]

"Starfleet is not a military organization; its purpose is exploration" ~ Jean-Luc Picard

TNG: "Time's Arrow, part 2"

CLEMENS: Well, I know what you say, that this is a vessel of exploration and that your mission is to discover new worlds.
CLEMENS: That's what the Spanish said [. . .] and the Dutch and the Portuguese. It's what all conquerors say. . . .​

There was a time in Earth's history when navies were dedicated to exploration, which was used as a euphemism for colonial conquest.

 

[Crazy Eddie]

TNG: "Time's Arrow, part 2"

CLEMENS: Well, I know what you say, that this is a vessel of exploration and that your mission is to discover new worlds.
CLEMENS: That's what the Spanish said [. . .] and the Dutch and the Portuguese. It's what all conquerors say. . . .​

There was a time in Earth's history when navies were dedicated to exploration, which was used as a euphemism for colonial conquest.

It's not a euphemism when Starfleet says it. That's actually the entire point of that conversation:

CLEMENS: That's what the Spanish said.
TROI: Deck thirty six.
CLEMENS: And the Dutch and the Portuguese. It's what all conquerors say. I'm sure that's what you told that blue-skinned fellow I just saw, before you brought him here to serve you.
TROI: He's one of the thousands of species that we've encountered. We live in a peaceful Federation with most of them. The people you see are here by choice.
CLEMENS: So there're a privileged few who serve on these ships, living in luxury and wanting for nothing. But what about everyone else? What about the poor? You ignore them.
TROI: Poverty was eliminated on Earth a long time ago, and a lot of other things disappeared with it. Hopelessness, despair, cruelty.
CLEMENS: Young lady, I come from a time when men achieve power and wealth by standing on the backs of the poor, where prejudice and intolerance are commonplace and power is an end unto itself. And you're telling me that isn't how it is anymore?
TROI: That's right.
CLEMENS: Well, maybe it's worth giving up cigars for after all.​

Mark's trying to compare Starfleet to the imperialist militaries of his own era and Troi is flat out telling him "That's not who we are and that's not how this works."

 

[CorporalClegg]

I never understood this resistance to calling Starfleet a military. Starfleet functions in a lot of ways. So do modern militaries. One of those functions is to act as a readily available armed force acting under the official capacity of the Federation government to protect its sovereignty and initiate its political agenda. Add on top of that all the paramilitary trappings and flair. And all of this can be seen within the first-half season of TOS.

The denial seems like bizarre byproduct of Roddenberryism.

There is nothing inherently nefarious or dubious about a military. Nor does calling Starfleet that immediately turn Kirk and Picard into jackbooted thugs.

In fact, if the goal is a "better future," couldn't a non-aggressive and benevolent military be a symbol of that ideal?

 

[Prax]

Dear CorporalClegg,

What is a sandship?

 

[Crazy Eddie]

I never understood this resistance to calling Starfleet a military.

I never understood the insistence on calling it one, or the passionate reaction by people who insist that it is.

But all that aside, the words "Starfleet is not a military organization" is pretty cut and dried. The first time I heard that line my thought was "Huh... that explains alot."

There is nothing inherently nefarious or dubious about a military.

There's nothing inherently glorious or praiseworthy about it either. Not calling Starfleet a military is like not calling the Enterprise a cruise ship. It's not what it is, so we they don't call it that.

Nor does calling Starfleet that immediately turn Kirk and Picard into jackbooted thugs.

You DO realize that the original "jackbooted thugs" weren't actually part of the German military, right?

 

[Crazy Eddie]

Dear CorporalClegg,

What is a sandship?

It's a large carnivorous transport mechanism used by the Fremen of Arakis.

I feel obliged at this time to point out that, technically, the Fremen are not a military organization

 

[Baxten]

It's not a euphemism when Starfleet says it. That's actually the entire point of that conversation:

CLEMENS: That's what the Spanish said.
TROI: Deck thirty six.
CLEMENS: And the Dutch and the Portuguese. It's what all conquerors say. I'm sure that's what you told that blue-skinned fellow I just saw, before you brought him here to serve you.
TROI: He's one of the thousands of species that we've encountered. We live in a peaceful Federation with most of them. The people you see are here by choice.
CLEMENS: So there're a privileged few who serve on these ships, living in luxury and wanting for nothing. But what about everyone else? What about the poor? You ignore them.
TROI: Poverty was eliminated on Earth a long time ago, and a lot of other things disappeared with it. Hopelessness, despair, cruelty.
CLEMENS: Young lady, I come from a time when men achieve power and wealth by standing on the backs of the poor, where prejudice and intolerance are commonplace and power is an end unto itself. And you're telling me that isn't how it is anymore?
TROI: That's right.
CLEMENS: Well, maybe it's worth giving up cigars for after all.​

Mark's trying to compare Starfleet to the imperialist militaries of his own era and Troi is flat out telling him "That's not who we are and that's not how this works."

That doesn't change the point: it is only Starfleet's claim.

Here is what Clemens thought in reality: Mark Twain (Samuel Clemens), Friday, September 7, 1906:

For good or for evil, we continue to educate Europe. We have held the post of instructor for more than a century and a quarter now. We were not elected to it, we merely took it. We are of the Anglo-Saxon race. At the banquet, last winter, of that organization which calls itself the Ends of the Earth Club, the chairman, a retired regular army officer of high grade, proclaimed in a loud voice, and with fervency,

“We are of the Anglo-Saxon race, and when the Anglo-Saxon wants a thing he just takes it.”

That utterance was applauded to the echo. There were perhaps seventy-five civilians present and twenty-five military and naval men. It took those people nearly two minutes to work off their stormy admiration of that great sentiment [. . .]

The soldier man’s great utterance, interpreted by the expression which he put into it, meant, in plain English—

“The English and the Americans are thieves, highwaymen, pirates, and we are proud to be of the combination.”

Out of all the English and Americans present, there was not one with the grace to get up and say he was ashamed of being an Anglo-Saxon, and also ashamed of being a member of the human race, since the race must abide under the presence upon it of the Anglo-Saxon taint. I could not perform this office. I could not afford to lose my temper and make a self-righteous exhibition of myself and my superior morals that I might teach this infant class in decency the rudiments of that cult, for they would not be able to grasp it; they would not be able to understand it.​

No, Starfleet considers the Cardassian militias to be paramilitary actors (considering the Cardassian military IS a military sanctioned by their government). From the same episode:

GUL EVEK: Captain, if the Maquis are not stopped, this situation will continue to escalate to the point where the Cardassian military will have no choice but to take matters into their own hands.​

The term "Cardassian Military" is one that has been used throughout TNG and DS9. It occurs not less than 18 times between both series.

The term "Federation military" has never been spoken in dialog in more than 50 years of Trek history.

No. Picard compared the Maquis to Cardassian civilians, when speaking of paramilitary actions. And we know that Starfleet personnel are not civilians. We also know that Starfleet has JAG and court-martial, which makes it a military organization by definition.

 

[The Wormhole]

Oh, yes, of course. Starfleet isn't military. They're just an armed uniform service with rank structure responsible for defending its nation and fighting its wars and they practice martial discipline. Which totally isn't military, despite the fact the word "martial" literally means military. But there are five examples in which Starfleet is stated to not be a military, this has to be adhered to despite the fact the rest of the time it acts like a military, and indeed was even depicted as one all throughout TOS.

Defense is a secondary function of Starfleet's operations, and therefore it is a non-military organization.

Defense is most certainly not secondary for Starfleet. I assure you, when the Borg and Dominion come calling, Starfleet responds and any and all exploration and scientific endeavors are put on hold if not outright suspended.

Who says the Federation has to have a military?

Really? We have to explain the necessity for a military now?

 

[Crazy Eddie]

That doesn't change the point: it is only Starfleet's claim.

And Starfleet's claim is believable, seeing how they know the nature of their own organization.

Mark Twain, on the other hand, only learned of Starfleet's existence five minutes ago. What the fuck does HE know?

No. Picard compared the Maquis to Cardassian civilians, when speaking of paramilitary actions.

Yes, because the CARDASSIAN CIVILIANS killing people in the DMZ are, by definition, engaging in paramilitary action. This may be just as true of the Maquis (he doesn't say as much, but it could be).

None of which tells us anything about the nature of Starfleet, whom the Cardassians still never refer to as the "Federation Military" despite having multiple opportunities to do so.

And we know that Starfleet personnel are not civilians.

Of course not. They're paramilitaries.

 

[Baxten]

"In addition to military aid, we can send you specialists, technicians. . . ." ~ James T. Kirk.

It looks like some people still do not understand what a court-martial is. By definition, it requires to be administered by a real military, not a paramilitary in place of a military but a full fledged military. It is its legal definition. Additionally, JAG is the legal branch of a military, not paramilitary.

Star Trek cannot redefine the language.

 

[Crazy Eddie]

Oh, yes, of course. Starfleet isn't military.

Of course not. It's a paramilitary.

They're just an armed uniform service with rank structure responsible for defending its nation and fighting its wars and they practice martial discipline. Which totally isn't military, despite the fact the word "martial" literally means military.

Right. Just like "paramilitary" literally means "like a military."

But there are five examples in which Starfleet is stated to not be a military, this has to be adhered to despite the fact the rest of the time it acts like a military, and indeed was even depicted as one all throughout TOS.

Right. It's something that is not a military (we know this because they SAY it multiple times) but it ACTS like a military.

Something that is not a military, but acts like one, is called "paramilitary." That's LITERALLY the definition of that word.

Defense is most certainly not secondary for Starfleet.

Of course it is. 90% of their operations are geared towards scientific research and exploration, and 90% of their time in the field is of a scientific nature. Defense may be an important role, but they're not NEEDED in that role except in the most extraordinary circumstances.

IOW, it's not their primary role because it's not the Federation's primary need. Most Federation planets have automated defenses that can probably neutralize any invader long before he can launch an attack, so Starfleet isn't even the Federation's PRIMARY defensive tool.

Really? We have to explain the necessity for a military now?

You do in the Trek universe. There is a surprisingly large number of civilizations that don't seem to need one. The Federation appears to be one of them.

 

[Crazy Eddie]

"In addition to military aid, we can send you specialists, technicians. . . ." ~ James T. Kirk.

It looks like some people still do not understand what a court-martial is. By definition, it requires to be administered by a real military, not a paramilitary in place of a military but a full fledged military. It is its legal definition.

... in the United States in the 21st century.

The Federation is the not the United States.

Additionally, JAG is the legal branch of a military, not paramilitary.

It is in Stafleet.

Star Trek cannot redefine the language.

I'll take "quantum singularity" for five hundred, Alex

Pop quiz time: what's the difference between a paramedic and a doctor?

 

[The Wormhole]

Of course it is. 90% of their operations are geared towards scientific research and exploration, and 90% of their time in the field is of a scientific nature. Defense may be an important role, but they're not NEEDED in that role except in the most extraordinary circumstances.

IOW, it's not their primary role because it's not the Federation's primary need. Most Federation planets have automated defenses that can probably neutralize any invader long before he can launch an attack, so Starfleet isn't even the Federation's PRIMARY defensive tool.

And yet, the very idea of a peace treaty with the Klingons made many of Starfleet's top brass think "oh, there's no need for Starfleet anymore, is there?"