No, it is just that. Although I believe in the US military it's being phased out.
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Starfleet Enlisted
- Thread starter Tebok
- Start date
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Actually, Ripley was third. Kane (played by John Hurt) was second in command, though I guess once the Alien burst from his chest Ripley did get bumped up to second.
Still, we don't have any references to any other training facilities, making it questionable any exist. But more to the point of my post, the fact the seal has the Golden Gate Bridge proves to ItIsGreen that the Academy is in San Francisco rather than Paris.
That is not correct. In the US armed forces, there are five grades of warrant officer (though the USN uses only four, the USCG only three, and the USAF none at all). In the rest of the English-speaking world, a warrant officer is a top enlisted rank, more like a US E-8 or E-9.
Warrant officers originated in the British Royal Navy for professional seamen who needed officer authority aboard ship, but who were considered too low-class to be social equals with commissioned "officers and gentlemen."
Yes, she stated she was in charge next after Dallas and Kane, but she also called herself "third officer," which is actually fourth in command. Seemed to be a little confusion, there.
Yeah I genuinely don't know why I thought that - I guess I misheard/misunderstood something in TNG when I was a kid and got the idea into my head and then never corrected it... I've never really paid much attention to the seal so never noticed the Golden Gate bridge.
As an aside, being British (or not-American) it wouldn't necessarily be recognisable as the Golden Gate bridge, it's only a small section of it shown in silhouette and could easily be any large suspension bridge, for example the Severn Bridge in Wales or the Forth Bridge in Scotland - but I suppose the words 'SAN FRANCISCO' in capital letters underneath would give it awayThe Wormhole said:
I'll be over in the corner with my Dunce's cap on...
I did say "As I understand it." Apparently, I misunderstood it.
I've always found the Star Trek personnel model to be pretty unrealistic. It's always been implied that everyone (or most everyone) is a SFA graduate. But that doesn't seem practical. I have no idea what the academy's enrollment is, but Annapolis is like 4000 a year, and, you Limeys can correct me, but I think the BRNC is only like a few hundred a year. But even if the average SFA freshman class was 10,000 (which would require a massive campus), I still don't see how that could supply all the crew slots on every starship or starbase or planetary outpost or whatever. The Starfleet has got to be really, really big.
So it seems reasonable that there must be some kind of OCS program.
AFA enlisted go, I don't understand why they wouldn't have more. If monetary incentive isn't a concern, I'd think there'd be a lot of people who, upon graduating high school, would want to forego college and hit the stars.
So it seems reasonable that there must be some kind of OCS program.
AFA enlisted go, I don't understand why they wouldn't have more. If monetary incentive isn't a concern, I'd think there'd be a lot of people who, upon graduating high school, would want to forego college and hit the stars.
Well, Tarses mentions in The Drumhead that he went enlisted instead of becoming a commissioned officer because he didn't want to attend four years worth of classes.
I'd assume it's like the modern militaries of the world, wherein if you choose to become an enlisted soldier, you only have to attend a training centre for a number of weeks or months to foster basic military skills and a rudimentary skill specialization.
As for warrant officers, I've never heard mention or reference to a warrant officer in Starfleet. I'd assume that the Starfleet has done away with WO ranks and just folded all non-officer specializations into the enlisted rank structure.
I'd assume it's like the modern militaries of the world, wherein if you choose to become an enlisted soldier, you only have to attend a training centre for a number of weeks or months to foster basic military skills and a rudimentary skill specialization.
As for warrant officers, I've never heard mention or reference to a warrant officer in Starfleet. I'd assume that the Starfleet has done away with WO ranks and just folded all non-officer specializations into the enlisted rank structure.
I've often wondered this myself. There has to be some sort of OCS route for those enlisted personnel who decide mid-career to advance to officer rank, or show incredible promise and accept a recommendation from an CO to become an officer? Unless Starfleet just brevets everyone to officer from enlisted and it's just accepted by Command on review every time?
Could be a case of "The Academy" being Starfleet's general training facilities. The officer cadets and the enlisted recruits would go to two entirely different training environments. When Lt. Saavik took advanced tactical training, she when to the academy. When a NCO goes to command school, it at the academy.
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The system in the TNG-era is incomplete (due to published materials mostly ignoring the issue), however five ranks/rates have been used on at least occassionally:
- Crewman (used regularly since TOS, probably equivalent to Able Seaman/Ables'man)
- Crewman 1st Class (Simon Tarses in "The Drumhead")
- Petty Officer (Zim Brott in "Field of Fire")
- Chief Petty Officer (Sergei Rozhenko, O'Brien, Rand and others)
- Senior Chief Specialist (O'Brien aka "Chief of Operations" during the same period, likely his job title rather than rate).
The six rates implied by O'Brien's mostly unique insignia likely shake out as:
- Crewman (one chevron)
- Crewman 1st Class (two chevrons)
- Petty Officer*/Specialist* (three chevrons)
- Chief Petty Officer*/Chief Specialist* (three chevrons, one dot)
- Senior Chief Petty Officer*/Senior Chief Specialist* (three chevrons, two dots)
- Master Chief Petty Officer*/Master Chief Specialist* (three chevrons, three dots)
* depending on rating?
A no-chevron title (Recruit or Trainee?) is also possible under this system, but to my mind probably isn't typically 'deployed' on starships, but instead is typically held only by attendees at enlisted training (with Voyagers unique circumstances possibly explaining why it's seen there).
Was Tina Lawton a yeoman third class? I suppose there is no reason why a yeoman needs be a petty officer so that could have been a way of signalling that she was a crewman, while Rand, the top banana in yeomanry, was likely a petty officer. Certainly in the Man Trap she acts like she has seniority over Crewman Green.
A Starfleet Enlisted Rank System, Basic outline.
Recruit - Members who are in process of being sworn in and sent to Basic Training
Crewman - After training is complete, crewmen are assigned to a department, and being on-the-job training under supervision.
Senior Crewman - Promoted once a supervisor is satisfied with the level of training a crewman has received.
Master Crewman - Promoted once a supervisor is satisfied with the level of training a crewman has received.
Petty Officer 3rd Class - After time in service is satisfied, competent crewmen may be promoted to Petty Officer (PO)
Petty Officer 2nd Class - Rate/Rank assigned for duty/service requirements, and/or time in service.
Petty Officer 1st Class - Rate/Rank assigned for duty/service requirements, and/or time in service.
Chief Petty Officer - POs who have served xxx years advance to Chief and are able to work alone. By this time, Chiefs are expected to know most, if not all jobs and duties specific to their department.
Senior Chief Petty Officer - Rate/Rank assigned for duty/service requirements, and/or time in service.
Master Chief Petty Officer - Chiefs serving in senior positions or jobs that require them to oversee their respective departments.
Command Master Chief (of the Ship/Station) - The most senior serving Chief onboard a Starship or Spacestation.
Fleet Command Master Chief - The most senior serving Chief within a Fleet. This is an appointment, not a rank.
Field commissions are only given to Chief Petty Officers and above.
Many Trek RPG Games and Websites vary in their structure. Many like to add more ranks.
Also, Starfleets Enlisted Rank/Rate system is often compared to itself along a massive timeline. However, our ranking systems (earth/human) change all the time. Often it gets more complex. The Enlisted ranking system during the 2200s (TOS era) was very different and very simplistic. Where as the more modern one used during the late 2300s (DS9/Voy), is what I am basing this outline on.
The rates of Technicians and/or Specialists can be given to anyone at any rank, and often replace the term 'Petty Officer'. A Technicians 1st Class could simply be a PO1 Engineering Technition. And a Senior Chief Specialist would be a Senior Chief with a specialty job.
Many Enlisted personnel never advance beyond the Crewman ranks. It is possible to serve a full career as just a crewman, just as an Officer may never advance above Lieutenant. Advancing above these ranks require much additional training at the discretion of that person, should they wish to advance.
Basic Training is offered at any Central Training Center, inc. San Francisco Campus. Officer and Enlisted recruits may be picked up and begin their basic training anywhere that has a qualified training instructor. The recruit will be required to attend an appropriate training center to complete training as soon as possible.
All Starfleet members, Officer and Enlisted, may apply to attend any Starfleet Training Center to expand and continue their training and skills to advance their career, or if they may wish to change jobs or specialties.
Starfleet Academy's San Francisco campus is the main training center. It offers the most courses. There are many other training facilities both on earth and at different stations located all throughout the Sectors. But all others are considered to be more specialty training facilities that focus on specific areas. San Francisco is the only place that offers the Officer Cadet Program.
Recruit - Members who are in process of being sworn in and sent to Basic Training
Crewman - After training is complete, crewmen are assigned to a department, and being on-the-job training under supervision.
Senior Crewman - Promoted once a supervisor is satisfied with the level of training a crewman has received.
Master Crewman - Promoted once a supervisor is satisfied with the level of training a crewman has received.
Petty Officer 3rd Class - After time in service is satisfied, competent crewmen may be promoted to Petty Officer (PO)
Petty Officer 2nd Class - Rate/Rank assigned for duty/service requirements, and/or time in service.
Petty Officer 1st Class - Rate/Rank assigned for duty/service requirements, and/or time in service.
Chief Petty Officer - POs who have served xxx years advance to Chief and are able to work alone. By this time, Chiefs are expected to know most, if not all jobs and duties specific to their department.
Senior Chief Petty Officer - Rate/Rank assigned for duty/service requirements, and/or time in service.
Master Chief Petty Officer - Chiefs serving in senior positions or jobs that require them to oversee their respective departments.
Command Master Chief (of the Ship/Station) - The most senior serving Chief onboard a Starship or Spacestation.
Fleet Command Master Chief - The most senior serving Chief within a Fleet. This is an appointment, not a rank.
Field commissions are only given to Chief Petty Officers and above.
Many Trek RPG Games and Websites vary in their structure. Many like to add more ranks.
Also, Starfleets Enlisted Rank/Rate system is often compared to itself along a massive timeline. However, our ranking systems (earth/human) change all the time. Often it gets more complex. The Enlisted ranking system during the 2200s (TOS era) was very different and very simplistic. Where as the more modern one used during the late 2300s (DS9/Voy), is what I am basing this outline on.
The rates of Technicians and/or Specialists can be given to anyone at any rank, and often replace the term 'Petty Officer'. A Technicians 1st Class could simply be a PO1 Engineering Technition. And a Senior Chief Specialist would be a Senior Chief with a specialty job.
Many Enlisted personnel never advance beyond the Crewman ranks. It is possible to serve a full career as just a crewman, just as an Officer may never advance above Lieutenant. Advancing above these ranks require much additional training at the discretion of that person, should they wish to advance.
Basic Training is offered at any Central Training Center, inc. San Francisco Campus. Officer and Enlisted recruits may be picked up and begin their basic training anywhere that has a qualified training instructor. The recruit will be required to attend an appropriate training center to complete training as soon as possible.
All Starfleet members, Officer and Enlisted, may apply to attend any Starfleet Training Center to expand and continue their training and skills to advance their career, or if they may wish to change jobs or specialties.
Starfleet Academy's San Francisco campus is the main training center. It offers the most courses. There are many other training facilities both on earth and at different stations located all throughout the Sectors. But all others are considered to be more specialty training facilities that focus on specific areas. San Francisco is the only place that offers the Officer Cadet Program.
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Tina Lawton was identified as a Yeoman 3rd class in dialogue, however she was the only Yeoman that was given a 'grade' (the others were plain 'Yeoman'), the only outliers were Yeoman Burke (who wore Ables'man/Crewman insignia) and the unnamed lieutenant played by Melanie Shatner in TFF. Possibly Specialists number down (so "1st class" would be nominally a PO, which matches the idea that Rand's first promotion was to Chief; Yeoman 2nd class would rank with Crewman 1st class; and Yeoman 3rd class would be a just-rated "rookie" (which would fit with her being "about 17-year old Charlie's age", although the actress was about 21 when she filmed the role) whereas Rand is believed to be in her early-to-mid twenties during the show (according to at one of the episode novelisations) and Whitney was ~36 at the time).
Although, it's almost as likely that Rand's 'seniority' over Green - especially as she's not in his 'chain of command' - is an artifact of her status as the captain's personal aide rather than any greater rank per se.
So would that make Rand COB (Chief of the Boat/ship)? She was probably the best candidate we've seen on TOS.
There was a Chief Petty Officer Garrison in "The Cage". So if anyone on the ship is COB, it's most likely him.
Yeoman wouldn't be a high enough rank to be a COB.
Yes, there does have to be such a thing, because that's exactly what Rand did. She was a Yeoman for all of TOS, but in the movies (and VOY's "Flashback") she was an officer.
Yeoman wouldn't be a high enough rank to be a COB.
Yes, there does have to be such a thing, because that's exactly what Rand did. She was a Yeoman for all of TOS, but in the movies (and VOY's "Flashback") she was an officer.
"Yeoman third class" is straight USN-type terminology for a petty officer 3rd class. What various Starfleet enlisted ratings there are is an open question, but the "technician first class" and "specialist" heard in TOS could fit as other petty officer ratings. How "engineer grade four" would fit in with that is anybody's guess, though.
The script said he was a chief petty officer, but it was never established onscreen. He had a unique rank stripe, and seemed to be doing communications duty.
Nah. Rand was probably the highest-ranking yeoman on the ship, but if there was a CMC (command master chief) on the Enterprise, that person would be more involved in command and tactical decisions as an advisor to Kirk on the state/operational readiness of the crew and the ship for action.
Despite that "fourth grade" thing, it might be aesthetically pleasing to decide that Starfleet believes in three of everything: three grades of crewman (3rd/apprentice/whatever, 2nd, 1st), three grades of Petty Officer (3rd, 2nd, 1st), and three grades above that (Chief, Senior Chief, Master Chief). Crewmen would get no outward signs of their grade, as is consistent with the visuals; Petty Officers might in turn be relatively rare things, sporting either one (Petty Officer 3,2,1g) or two (CPO, SCPO, MCPO) dark pips in most environments (the ones we "mistook" for bright officer pips in TNG).
Or then those "dark" pips are the very same as the pips on O'Brien's collar plate, and he lost one when moving from E-D to DS9 but then regained it. The three levels of Petty Officer would then go unmarked for whatever reason (even though "officially" they would have 1, 2 or 3 chevrons, respectively), while the three levels above that would either wear the full thing on a plate, or then the abbreviated form lacking the triple chevrons and just showing the pips.
Oh, well. What we have to do in any case is invent a rationale for Petty Officers being so darn invisible. Perhaps they are so busy with their belowdecks duties that our heroes never interact with them, except through Uhura's pagings?
Timo Saloniemi
Or then those "dark" pips are the very same as the pips on O'Brien's collar plate, and he lost one when moving from E-D to DS9 but then regained it. The three levels of Petty Officer would then go unmarked for whatever reason (even though "officially" they would have 1, 2 or 3 chevrons, respectively), while the three levels above that would either wear the full thing on a plate, or then the abbreviated form lacking the triple chevrons and just showing the pips.
Oh, well. What we have to do in any case is invent a rationale for Petty Officers being so darn invisible. Perhaps they are so busy with their belowdecks duties that our heroes never interact with them, except through Uhura's pagings?
Timo Saloniemi
