Starfleet Academy, take two

[Cheapjack]

Really, Cheapjack, you seem to enjoy coming in and saying 'you're not imaginitive enough'. Well, that's easy. You say how you think Earth's military and security will be different in the 24th century.

I agree:
Cheapjack, rather posting non-sequiturs and than pretending that they are arguments against what other people have posted, how about you contribute some constructive suggestions?
What do you think the experience of attending Starfleet Academy is like? What would cadets do in any given year? Your thoughts?

I think most of all, they would have lessons in 'open-mindedness'. They are going to be meeting lots of strange new things and new lifeforms,and new civilisations, if you want to go back to basics, and they are going to be different. They will also be trained how to be disciplined and grounded, so they don't go mental as a result of meeting all these different races.

As to the structure, and content, I think you could only be generic, as we don't know exactly how a starship works. Navigation, warp-space theory,astrophysics etc.

I don't think they will be exactly like the US military today, some of the names of grades will be the same, and some of structures, but they will be a lot more tolerant. It says in the ST2 novelistion that you can disobay and order and not get punished, just transferred.

And, I don't think they'll go around the universe inflicting 20thC capitalism on everyone.

 

[neozeks]

Now that's what we're talking about.

I think most of all, they would have lessons in 'open-mindedness'. They are going to be meeting lots of strange new things and new lifeforms,and new civilisations, if you want to go back to basics, and they are going to be different. They will also be trained how to be disciplined and grounded, so they don't go mental as a result of meeting all these different races.

Oh, there will be lots of diversity classes, no doubt. I can only imagine the confusion of a cadet from some backwater one-species colony upon reaching the Academy with it's multitude of different species.

I don't think they will be exactly like the US military today, some of the names of grades will be the same, and some of structures, but they will be a lot more tolerant. It says in the ST2 novelistion that you can disobay and order and not get punished, just transferred.

Well, a transfer is still a punishment, isn't it? Indeed, we have seen Starfleet is in general more laid-back and unmilitaristic than most militaries, but some disincentive for not following orders has to exist in every hierarchical organization.

 

[SpyOne]

And, I don't think they'll go around the universe inflicting 20thC capitalism on everyone.

Oh, so close: you almost made it through an entire post without suggesting that someone had said something they didn't.

I'm not 100% sure that Starfleet Academy would need to teach tolerance. What I mean is: in WWII (IIRC) the US Military assumed that a soldier would need to be taught to drive, but by the 1980s it assumed that a recruit would already know how to drive: society had changed, and nearly everyone old enough to drive had learned how to drive.
We don't have a lot of evidence that people who aren't in Starfleet are bigots, so I'm not sure that Starfleet would need to teach most recruits how to be respectful of other sentient beings. Maybe in TOS, where things seemed less enlightened, but not by TNG. IMO, YMMV.
There would, no doubt, be remedial tolerance classes for recruits who had a particular problem with that, though.

 

[Penta]

The movie novelizations are my least favored form of non-canon Trek, and cheapjack's example from ST2's novelization is a great example why.

Not only is that not backed up by anything anywhere else, it defies common sense.

A starship, you see, is like a ship at sea. Most particularly a submarine.

Aboard a sub, should you fail to follow orders, what can potentially happen?

People die. This is caused both by the nature of submarines (which are profoundly dangerous unless everybody's doing their jobs), and the nature of a sub's potential missions, which is to say combat.

In any combatant organization, that's why the first lessons are always on how to follow orders. Without question (an instinct that is very hard to suppress). Even if it kills you.

Only then are the exceptions given, the "don't follow an illegal/immoral order" sort of things.

I don't see Starfleet bucking thousands of years of accumulated wisdom on how to turn civilians into warfighters, not to that extent. Besides, it strikes me as common sense.

Space travel, for what its worth, even in the 24th Century, strikes me as being more like being aboard a sub than unlike.

It is still, by default, very dangerous to travel in space. Only because those conducting the voyage are well-trained is it something that can be routine. Only because orders are followed for the most part automatically and without question is it safe.

Where I think Starfleet differs is its acceptance of excuses for disobedience. Basically, in Starfleet, disobeying orders is still incredibly serious.

But. Starfleet actually allows a fair number of defenses that make the disobedience justified legally. This is in contrast to modern militaries, where the order being blatantly and obviously illegal is basically the only reason.

Now, that doesn't mean that just because your disobedience was legally justified, you get off scot-free.

It just means you don't spend time at the Starfleet Disciplinary Barracks at Leavenworth, Kansas. Your career is still probably over.

 

[neozeks]

I'm not 100% sure that Starfleet Academy would need to teach tolerance. What I mean is: in WWII (IIRC) the US Military assumed that a soldier would need to be taught to drive, but by the 1980s it assumed that a recruit would already know how to drive: society had changed, and nearly everyone old enough to drive had learned how to drive.
We don't have a lot of evidence that people who aren't in Starfleet are bigots, so I'm not sure that Starfleet would need to teach most recruits how to be respectful of other sentient beings. Maybe in TOS, where things seemed less enlightened, but not by TNG. IMO, YMMV.
There would, no doubt, be remedial tolerance classes for recruits who had a particular problem with that, though.

Yeah, I definitely do agree that people in the Federation would by nature be more enlightened and respectfull in this regard. But I didn't really mean teaching them basic respect, what I meant was more of teaching them to get accustomed and so to say, comfortable, with other species' more specific traits. I mean, you can be raised to be, in theory, a perfectly tolerant being - but if you haven't had any experience of that type before, you'll still get a bit confused when meeting a say, genderless alien.

 

[T'Girl]

I'm not 100% sure that Starfleet Academy would need to teach tolerance.

Yeah, I definitely do agree that people in the Federation would by nature be more enlightened and respectfull in this regard.

I'm sorry to say I disagree with both of you on this. First, the Vulcans have been shown (to name one race) that enlightenment and respect are not a given in the Federation. Second, not only will there be diversity and tolerance training, it will literally be the first class taught. There is a lot of difference between tolerance and acceptance, the new cadet will be instructed in how to behave, not in how to think. At minimum the class will get everyone on the same page.

They will also be trained how to be disciplined and grounded, so they don't go mental as a result of meeting all these different races.

In Roddenberry's novelization of ST:TMP, he wrote that this actual was a problem, that sooner or later Starfleet crews were going to meet a truly superior lifeform and that the SFA's selection process of choosing the most intelletual cadets that they could lay their hands on was working against them. They were being overwhelmed by what they were encountering. Kirk joked that his was the first class at SFA that was "dumbed down" not to be impressed with superior beings. Which defiantly showed in Kirk behavior during TOS.

that you can disobey and order and not get punished, ...

Starfleet does seem to embrace the mind set that if you disobey an order and you're successful. you won't automatically be punished.
The opposite side of this is where Wesley Crusher willfully (and stupidly) disobeyed an order and it took the efforts of a superior being to prevent a slaughter of colonists by the Cardassians.

And, I don't think they'll go around the universe inflicting 20thC capitalism on everyone.

Of course the easiest way to impose capitalism on anyone is to simply show it to them. While not perfect, it is better than any other system. Russia and to a lesser degree China moved away from communism in favor of it. And currently Portugal and especially Greece are actively demonstrating some of the problems with socialism.

But. Starfleet actually allows a fair number of defenses that make the disobedience justified legally. This is in contrast to modern militaries, where the order being blatantly and obviously illegal is basically the only reason.

The way current (American) Marines and soldiers handle this is to carry out the order without carrying out the order. If a officer tell you to fire on non-combatant civilians, you say yes sir, fire your weapon and every man in the unit misses. Star Trek showed in the episode The Pegasus that Starfleet personnel know when not to follow orders.

 

[SpyOne]

DATA: Captain, I wish to submit myself for disciplinary action. I have disobeyed a direct order from a superior officer. Although the result of my actions proved positive, the ends cannot justify the means.
PICARD: No, they can't. However, the claim 'I was only following orders' has been used to justify too many tragedies in our history. Starfleet doesn't want officers who will blindly follow orders without analysing the situation. Your actions were appropriate for the circumstances, and I have noted that in your record

It is one of the tragedies of our modern times: for the military to function, we need people to do what they are told, when they are told to, without being briefed on all the relevant facts that informed the decision. And yet, we need to rely on those same people to recognize an illegal order and refuse to obey it.
Of course, the easiest way would be to simply never have anyone who might give an illegal order be in a position to do so, but ....
I recognize that's impossible. And Star Trek does, too: in TOS they had computers that could read your mind (at least to the point of lie detection), but no one had guessed that Captain Ben Tracy would abandon every principle of Starfleet if he was offered the Fountain of Youth. Or that Matt Decker or Jim Kirk would go all Ahab over their respective White Whales. Or Ben Maxwell, 100 years later, over his own White Whale,

I agree with the idea that, in a crisis, the response to an order should never be "why?". When the Chief Engineer tells you to close the blast doors and trap those five crewmen in with the breaching fusion reactor, you have to do it, and do it now.
How do you train people to do that, but to refuse when the safety of the ship isn't at stake, and the Chief Engineer is just taking an opportunity to kill off a troublesome subordinate, or one with an attractive wife. How do you get them to obey without thinking, except when they shouldn't.

It is comforting to know that they'll have over 300 years to work on that, but also saddening, because we really need that answer today.

 

[Cheapjack]

'Of course the easiest way to impose capitalism on anyone is to simply show it to them. While not perfect, it is better than any other system. Russia and to a lesser degree China moved away from communism in favor of it. And currently Portugal and especially Greece are actively demonstrating some of the problems with socialism.'



T'Girl, do you have ANY idea what medium we are discussing here? Do you have ANY knowledge of history? Capitalism hasn't always been around. Science fiction is about discussing alternative futures. you should at least, as a SF fan, be open to the idea that there are other systems. We might not progress at all, we may regress to Neandarthals. It's a possibility. Did the Mayans have capitalism? did the vikings? Did the American Indian?

It is hardly likely that in another 400 years time, that capitalism will survive in its present form. It is hardly likely that the arguments will be between socialism and capitalism. Some other system will come in.Maybe i'm wrong, maybe the American system will last for 400 years, in its present form, with no change, but all empires fade. People are evolving all the time. There are things that will change the mindset of people, even the oil barons, such as cheap fusion and replicator technology. Maybe those barons will be so abhorrent of the idea that things will be so cheap, they can be universal, that they will stop the progress of fusion. I've a fairly good idea they're doing it now.

Maybe, just maybe, there is a system beyond capitalism. There's a thought for you. Maybe they're already at it in the 24th C. And, if you say you can't conceive of it, maybe you shouldn't be watching SF, co that's what it's all about. Conceiving things.

T'Girl, you're in the wrong business!! And you say I fall sucker for propaganda!

As to the Starfleet Academy, I think it will borrow from some present day structures, but what about NASA? Maybe it will take some of it's structure. I think they are recruited from the Air Force as an elite.

The early days of starfleet will define it's structure, cos they may not have had warp drive and missions will have taken years. They will all be good alrounders, maybe with one or two degrees, like NASA astronauts now, and very tough and fit and adaptable. experts in their field, not cannon fodder.

 

[SpyOne]

Did the Mayans have capitalism? did the vikings? Did the American Indian?

I don't know for sure, but I do know that the Romans had something very like it more than 2000 years ago.
It might be doomed, it might go the way of the horse and carriage. But it might not.
If you can't imagine a future where capitalism evolves into something better, but still recognizable as such, then perhaps you have the faults that you ascribe to others.

It is hardly likely that in another 400 years time, that capitalism will survive in its present form.

Nobody said that it would.

None of which is really relevant to the topic here.

As to the Starfleet Academy, I think it will borrow from some present day structures, but what about NASA? Maybe it will take some of it's structure. I think they are recruited from the Air Force as an elite.

NASA recruits from all the US Armed Forces, but has no Academy of its own, so it is hard to base Starfleet Academy on the NASA model. NASA focuses on technical training, as the people it recruits already have been through military training and years if not decades of practical experience.
In fact, most NASA personnel remain in the military while they serve with NASA. IIRC, only one shuttle crewmember flew a mission after having retired from the military. (There are some civilian astronauts in NASA, but I believe that none of them are pilots, only "Mission Specialists" and "Payload Specialists".)

The early days of starfleet will define it's structure, cos they may not have had warp drive and missions will have taken years. They will all be good alrounders, maybe with one or two degrees, like NASA astronauts now, and very tough and fit and adaptable. experts in their field, not cannon fodder.

I agree that the early days of Starfleet will shape the agency: was it a self-defense force that had scientific duties added to it, like the 16th century Royal Navy, or a scientific agency that had military duties added to it because it had ships, much like how the US President's bodyguards are part of the Treasury Department because at the time Treasury Agents were already authorized to carry guns?
We know this about the formation of Starfleet:
It was one of the very first things created by the Federation.
The Federation was founded shortly after the end of the Earth-Romulan War.
Warp Drive was created about 100 years before that.

I think that points to the Federation being a mutual defense pact, and Starfleet being the mechanism of that defense, but I agree it hardly proves it: it could have been a trade alliance, or any number of other things.

 

[T'Girl]

And you say I fall sucker for propaganda!

If you care to check, that actual was someone else.

Do you have ANY knowledge of history? Capitalism hasn't always been around.

Only about twenty-two centuries, I know. Although the Chinese claim to have had a form of merchant capitalism as early as the ninth century BC. The argument might be made that at any point in history where you had trade where the medium of exchange was a item of value (gold, silver, blue beads) as opposed to trading one product for another, you have capitalism. Even the old testament spoke of usury.

Did the Mayans have capitalism? did the vikings? Did the American Indian?

Well to start, the Mayans defiantly were capitalists, while a agricultural people they weren't subsistence farmers, but instead practiced a form of "truck farming" (no they didn't have trucks) havested products were carried to centrally located market places and either traded for goods or sold for money. Cheapjack, they possessed filthy money. Chocolate and cotton were grown as pure cash crops, the Mayans had plantations centuries before the coming of the Europeans.

In the case of the Vikings, they were a trading nation, and the Vikings were into capitalism big time. While better known for rape and pillage, the Vikings were also known for forcing their way into closed markets and economies all over Europe and the near/middle east. Cheapjack even in business today there exist the expression "Viking Capitalist."

Last month I spent the weekend at the Muckleshoot Indian Casino, which sits on American Indian reservation land located on a plateau above the city of Auburn. Our host, Chief Tumbling Dice, seemed very much the capitalist.

Sweetness let us get a couple of things straight, you brought up capitalism, no one else. We're all aware of the wide variety of both economic and social systems depicted in science fiction, currently I'm reading Atlas Shrugged, scaring the hell out of me, you might approve of system shown. The main problem with what you're putting forward is that it isn't in any substantial way supported by the in-universe evidence of the series. Other than a handful of statements on the part of Picard, where he sounds more like a starry eyed dreamer than a man describing a complex economic system.

There is abundant proof that there is some form of monetary exchange going on, it may be cashless, but it not moneyless. Whether you looking at unofficial on-board currency like replicator rations, or Riker's poker chips, or Crusher's "account," or buying access to a wormhole, something valuable is changing hands.

It's not a case of the "American System" extending itself into the 24th century, it's a case of there being some form of compensation . Economics 101.

Some other system will come in ... there is a system beyond capitalism.

Interesting, why don't you tell us about it. How does it work? What kind of problems were there during the transition? Did the transition from one system to another result in a economic collapse like we saw in Russia in the nineties? What are the interacts like with older systems that are still in place?

Cheapjack, I seem the remember someone talking about a lack of imagination around here.

.

 

[Cheapjack]

T'Girl,

Perhaps I should have said, there will be a system that will come in, beyond capitalism AND socialism. It seems to terrify you that we won't have a system based on selfishness.

As I said, the system in TNG is such, that there is so much cheap power and replication technology that what we now regard as luxuries will be so cheap that everyone will be able to have them. People will be able to get on and to the things that the creative classes do in 'Atlas Shrugged', a lot easier, and a lot more people will be doing them and the human race will progress faster.

Did the Tibetans have capitalism, pre 1959? Do Masai warriors? No, and they were a hell of a lot better for it. It's just a system and there have been others. Your knowledge of history is impressive, but i don't think the Mayans or the Vikings had 20thC capitalism, which incidentally, has caused global warming and nearly wiped us out as a species.

As to TNG only making passing comments about 20thC capitalism, have you ever heard of a race called the Ferengi? They were 20thC capitalists, even in the much vaunted DS9 and Voyager made years after Roddenberry died, and were regarded as backward, and laughable, though they were dealt with. I'm sorry, T'Girl, but a lot of TNG,DS9 and Voyager said that 20thC attitudes and capitalism, were outdated and laughable and that was the prevailing view of the whole lot.

Actually, I think the reason we have not been openly contacted by aliens is BECAUSE we have no evolved beyond 20thC capitalism and your idea that we will be exporting it to all those races with lesser 'philosophys', and putting McDonalds on Alpha Centauri, is not valid.

Getting back to the subject, I think the structure of Starfleet will take NASA as it's starting point. I don't think the Galaxy will be inundated by fleets of well informed GI Joes. Starfleet personnel will be a lot better educated and literate and tough and capable and adaptable. it may be that the first exploratory vessels don't have much weaponry - does the shuttle?

 

[T'Girl]

Summer Cruises -- Kobayashi Maru

It seems unlikely, given the nature of their missions, that Kirk's or Picard's Enterprise carried any midshipmen on summer cruises. The midshipmen wouldn't be able to go that far from their respective academy planets.
-----
Let me get your opinion on this. At the beginning of The Wrath of Khan we see Saavik in the simulator, participating in what turn out to be the Kobayashi Maru scenario, presumably at the SFA. She is obviously engaging in some form of training, her uniform has a red collar and a red stripe at the wrist. I figure she is one of two things.
1) Saavik is still a midshipman at the SFA with the cadet rank of Lieutenant. The color of her uniform indicates she is a cadet.
2) Saavik graduated the SFA as a ensign, advanced to the rank of Lieutenant (maybe j.g.) and returned to the academy for additional training in command or advanced tactics. The color of her uniform indicates she is detached to training.

I'm leaning toward Saavik still being a midshipman.
----
The simulator can't just be for the Kobayashi Maru scenario and nothing else. Trainees likely spend long hours in the sims, working a wide range of scenarios. When the Kobayashi Maru pops up, at least the first time, it's a complete surprise for the trainee. That there is a no-win scenario probably isn't a big secret, trainees know they'll encounter it at some point. A situation will pull them into the neutral zone where "something" unavoidable will happen. It might make sense to have changed the name Kobayashi Maru from time to time. Kobayashi Maru not being the original name of the disabled ship.

Saavik didn't react to the name Kobayashi Maru. She did react to the coordinates of the stricken ship.
"In the neutral Zone" (watch Kristie Alley face next time). She knew it was the no-win scenario, it was her turn.

.

 

[Penta]

I've been thinking about the TWOK stuff myself.

Because we've never seen anything in canon about in-academy cadet ranks, my instinct is to presume option 2 - that she's back at the Academy for command school training or similar.

The way I see the sims being used:

It depends on the program. Academy cadets probably are formed into bridge crews on a pickup basis for each class - initially you handle a variety of stations, later you focus on the station you'd be using in your selected department.

Definitely, though, I like your notion of KM or similar being a surprise. Most likely, the cadet knows they're to report to the simulator on X day at Y time for their lab for whatever course.

They go in, they take the center chair, and command the sim. Time after time. Then, out of nowhere, the instructor throws the Kobayashi Maru scenario (or its equivalent) at the cadet.

Part of the reason why I presumed in the main writeup that the Kobayashi Maru scenario is no longer used is that it simply becomes too famous. Whatever you call it, the name will spread amongst the cadets like wildfire. Plus, it seems to be...rather more fatalistic than you want a Starfleet officer to be. Testing how they do at failure? Look at them in day to day existence...No, what you teach in the classroom is much different. That failure is not an option. You want to build, for combat situations especially, a certain degree of elan and aggressiveness. It's much easier to restrain that by carefully written orders than to train timidness and have to somehow get aggressiveness.
---

So far as summer cruises go:

Nah, you aren't likely to see them aboard Enterprise, Kirk's or Picard's. Those ships are supposed to be along the frontier.

Cadet summer cruises are much more likely to take place in safe territory - except during wartime, then all bets are off.

 

[Admiral_Young]

I like the idea of the KM test being a surprise as well. I've always wondered if it was something a Cadet that was taking it could study for it like any final exam. You wouldn't know exactly what the test was going to toss at you but at least you could prep yourself studying various tactics and starship protocol. Both versions of the test that we've seen on screen deal with potential battle situations and Saavik and Kirk both dealt with these scenarios using aggressive means after the Klingon ships refused to respond to their hails (in Kirk's case he just uploaded the virus that reprogrammed the simulator so he could easily destroy the ships). There was no diplomatic attempts made...perhaps the situation presented made it impossible for the Cadets to engage in a diplomatic resolution to the problem. It can't be the same scenario used in every single test though.

 

[SpyOne]

So far as summer cruises go:

Nah, you aren't likely to see them aboard Enterprise, Kirk's or Picard's. Those ships are supposed to be along the frontier.

Cadet summer cruises are much more likely to take place in safe territory - except during wartime, then all bets are off.

Ah, but on Spock's Enterprise, it seems almost the entire crew are trainees of one sort or another.

I agree that Saavik seems to have already graduated from the Academy. She appears to be .... doing some work on her Masters Thesis. Some simulator work, some time as a bridge officer on a training cruise. She appears to be training specifically for command.

Perhaps she took the post on the USS Grissom because she decided she didn't want to pursue command anymore, or perhaps because she wanted to return to Genesis.

I have heard ... apocryphal fan-stories that Spock felt ill-suited to command: that's why he so readily relinquishes command to Kirk, and that he had only accepted the position of Captain on the grounds that it be a training vessel. (In fact, I've heard it said that Spock originally left Starfleet because they wanted to make him a Captain when they bumped Kirk up to Admiral.)
I mention this because, if Saavik decided she didn't have what it takes to be a Captain after working with Kirk, .... well, my first thought was that Kirk must have that effect on Vulcans. And then I thought of Trail of the Pink Panther, where there are interviews with people who knew Clouseau: one of them is the junior officer who worked with him in A Shot In The Dark, and he says that working a case with Clouseau is why he quit the police force, because he had no clue how Clouseau figured out the things he did. "I realized I didn't have what it takes to be a detective." (Of course, Clouseau was jumping to conclusions that only coincidentally happened to be correct. )

 

[Cheapjack]

'Yes, cheapjack, you are completely right about TNG's, DS9's and Voyager's take on 20th Century capitalism and Gene Roddenberry is presently smiling down, graciously, with his wings on.'

 

[SpyOne]

'Yes, cheapjack, you are completely right about TNG's, DS9's and Voyager's take on 20th Century capitalism and Gene Roddenberry is presently smiling down, graciously, with his wings on.'

As usual, nobody said that. Or anything remotely like that.

 

[Admiral_Young]

Honestly I skipped through their debate about what form of government there is in the future.

 

[T'Girl]

WILDERNESS TRAINING, SURVIVAL AND DIET

More that just camping outside, field craft, finding food, what you can eat if you have no tricorder, don't drink out of streams, making a fire (Picard was piss poor at this), all your boy scout stuff. Just in case a landing party has to be left on a planet's surface. In all likelyhood the majority of Starfleet personnel will never be part of a landing party, but it good to have the basics. It might also have a morale function, knowing that you could be called up, to beam down, to some primitive world at any time in your service.
----
Spock's experiences in All Our Yesterday's makes me wonder if vegetarian and vegan individuals or races would receive direct orders during SFA that in a survival situation they would eat meat. Similarly would a individual or race that was strictly carnivores be required to consume vegetation if it was necessary for survival. Obviously if the race was incapable of digesting certain foods they wouldn't receive this order.

I've always assumed that Vulcans were veggies by cultural inclination and not because they were biologically herbivores (although it's possible).

Diplomacy enters into this too, eating certain foods in a group is very important to some cultures, if you're trying to make first contact or negotiate a trade treaty it's a bad idea to insult your host

Cultural prejudices would be explored to see if there is any way around them, modern Americans for instance would refrain from eating spiders and beetles. Muslins and orthodox Jews would starve before eating pork. The Dharmic Religions refrain from meat in general. I was shocked when my family moved to Japan to find that the Japanese casually eat dogs and cats. The country I was born in they eat horses (pferdemetzgereien). A hundred mile from where I am now a indian tribe hunts and eats grey whales, when they first pull it up onto the beach everyone gets a chunk of raw. I was polite.

.

 

[Admiral_Young]

^ I agree and like everything in that post...we saw at the dinner scene in Star Trek VI that the Enterprise senior staff were revolted by the Klingon's eating habits. I would have thought that Starfleet would have provided them with some kind of inter species cuisine and etiquette course.