Spoilers Starbase 80 - The Space Station Time (and the Federation) Forgot

[DEWLine]

Acamar and sigma Iotia?

 

[Will_Carter]

Acamar and sigma Iotia?

Ye. It's for a thing I'm writing. Because logically the station stuck with old technology would turn to the planet who's native technology is also duotronics based.

 

[DEWLine]

Using this page:

Distance Between Two Stars or Planets in 3D Space

STAR/BODY 1:

RA1 = 44.5650000000 deg = 2.9710000000 h
Decl1 = -40.3044444444 deg
R1 = 178.4

x1 = R1*cos(RA1)*cos(Decl1) = +96.9302489012
y1 = R1*sin(RA1)*cos(Decl1) = +95.4694869755
z1 = R1*sin(Decl1) = -115.3978505197

==============================================
STAR/BODY 2:

RA2 = 128.5954166667 deg = 8.5730277778 h
Decl2 = -41.0280555556 deg
R2 = 157.7

x2 = R2*cos(RA2)*cos(Decl2) = -74.2136624071
y2 = R2*sin(RA2)*cos(Decl2) = +92.9811032275
z2 = R2*sin(Decl2) = -103.5187748900

==============================================
Rectangular Differences:

dx = x2 − x1 = -171.1439113083
dy = y2 − y1 = -2.4883837481
dz = z2 − z1 = +11.8790756297

==============================================
Distance Between Bodies:

D = SqRt(dx*dx + dy*dy + dz*dz) = 171.574

So...171.6 light-years between Acamar and Gaia DR3 5526948535671237888.

I'm still rethinking my choice of host star. Because that would be a bit of a round trip, right?

 

[Will_Carter]

I'm still rethinking my choice of host star. Because that would be a bit of a round trip, right?

Well I can fudge the numbers a bit on the idea of 'hey a couple hotrodders put something a little less ancient in this thing' but the trip is being made by the Yorkshire (NCC 330.) An Antares-type hauler.

Using this (as it is what I used when converting oldscale to new

Warp Speed Calculator

Have you ever wondered how long it would really take the Enterprise to travel from Earth to Vulcan at warp 5? The Warp Speed Calculator can answer that for you. And you, too, can sound like a Treknology expert!

www.st-minutiae.com

Even putting modifications up to warp 8 TNG warp scale (the top end i'm willing to go for an engine/powerplant overhaul) puts it at being 180ish days each way no breaks or stops.

Getting it to within a month each way requires pushing things to 9.8. Getting it to two weeks requires going at Warp 9.6. Again, without breaks, stops, or anything other than just 'go.' The Titan-A could do that with breaks and stops because warp 9.9 puts the non-stop at seven days. With stops, detours, and the usual realities of travel and you'd get two weeks each way as a 'taking one's time and stuff came up' estimation.

Which. No. Just... No. Not even the Enterprise D can pull that for more than like what... twelve hours and then need an engine overhaul/check after.

I'll figure something out, because i like the idea of a big galaxy. One of the biggest things I actually liked about Trek is you actually have travel time, which can either work for you or against you. Especially when you're trying to get a trade network going.

Appreciate your help.


So current thoughts are 'OK I'm ordering the parts from Here. What I'm sending in trade is in transit I'm manning the first leg of my shipment and the last leg of your shipment.' The blessing of having communications that move at relative instant/low latency. Puts the actual stuff arriving at half a (standard) year. Ish.

 

[DEWLine]

You could use a subspace shortcut.

 

[Will_Carter]

You could use a subspace shortcut.

Could. the question is, is that enough of a game changer to suddenly make SB80 more interesting/important? Because something that lets said trade ship shortcut months off of a trip is absolutely handy, especially since the other end is right next to the romulan neutral zone.

Also did the calculator and for a two week (with breaks) trip SB80 has a 14ish LY radius around it.

 

[Nerys Myk]

Literally it's this:

Class “J” (Watchtower) Station – FASA Star Trek® Starship Tactical Combat Simulator

Does the "J" stand for Jimi?

 

[Deks]

Well I can fudge the numbers a bit on the idea of 'hey a couple hotrodders put something a little less ancient in this thing' but the trip is being made by the Yorkshire (NCC 330.) An Antares-type hauler.

Using this (as it is what I used when converting oldscale to new

Warp Speed Calculator

Have you ever wondered how long it would really take the Enterprise to travel from Earth to Vulcan at warp 5? The Warp Speed Calculator can answer that for you. And you, too, can sound like a Treknology expert!

www.st-minutiae.com

Even putting modifications up to warp 8 TNG warp scale (the top end i'm willing to go for an engine/powerplant overhaul) puts it at being 180ish days each way no breaks or stops.

Getting it to within a month each way requires pushing things to 9.8. Getting it to two weeks requires going at Warp 9.6. Again, without breaks, stops, or anything other than just 'go.' The Titan-A could do that with breaks and stops because warp 9.9 puts the non-stop at seven days. With stops, detours, and the usual realities of travel and you'd get two weeks each way as a 'taking one's time and stuff came up' estimation.

Which. No. Just... No. Not even the Enterprise D can pull that for more than like what... twelve hours and then need an engine overhaul/check after.

I'll figure something out, because i like the idea of a big galaxy. One of the biggest things I actually liked about Trek is you actually have travel time, which can either work for you or against you. Especially when you're trying to get a trade network going.

Appreciate your help.


So current thoughts are 'OK I'm ordering the parts from Here. What I'm sending in trade is in transit I'm manning the first leg of my shipment and the last leg of your shipment.' The blessing of having communications that move at relative instant/low latency. Puts the actual stuff arriving at half a (standard) year. Ish.

At Warp 5 (TNG scale), you can cross 16.5 Ly's (distance between Earth and Vulcan) in about 26 days.
52 days for the return trip.
At Warp 8, you can traverse that distance in just under 17 days - or, 34 days for the round trip.

Also that Warp calculator is not entirely right.

Speeds past Warp 9 actually tend to go up much higher.
According to VOY, 9.9 = 21,473x c... which means that Warp 9.6 or 9.7 would be about 9,000x C (which is actually in line with 'Where no man has gone before - TNG last ep of S1).

Also, every increment past 9.9 results in doubling of speed and power consumption, which would mean 9.91 = 42,946x c, 9.92 = 85,892 x c, etc.

In TNG, ENT-D was limited to Warp 9.6 for 12 hrs.
VOY was limited to 9.75 for 12 hrs according to the dialogue (not 9.975 - because in several instances in the actual dialogue 9.75 was mentioned and seen as something the ship can hold for 12 hrs, while 9.9 was mentioned it would case the hull to collapse in about 45 seconds) - I would imagine the 9.975 was a mistake on behalf of the writers which also seemed like a disproportionate jump in sustainable warp speeds - which would make more sense if VOY was actually able to reach and sustain 9.975, but it never did.

USS Prometheus from Message in a Bottle was the only SF ship capable of achieving and maintaining Warp 9.9 without issues in the late 24th century.

 

[Will_Carter]

Also that Warp calculator is not entirely right.

This is why I cited source.

Appreciate your input. I"m going a differing route for my fiction, but as this thread is SB80 as is and not personal headcannon?

This does make me wonder just how far it is from Acamar III. A month? Two months at the speeds their ships can go?

 

[Deks]

This is why I cited source.

Appreciate your input. I"m going a differing route for my fiction, but as this thread is SB80 as is and not personal headcannon?

This does make me wonder just how far it is from Acamar III. A month? Two months at the speeds their ships can go?

Well, SB80 is apparently located in the Xerxes system according to Memory Beta. There is no conclusive data on where this system is located except its somewhere either in the Alpha or Beta Quadrant.
ST:Online has it pegged near Celes system in the Beta Quadrant.

Memory beta also says that Acamar is located in Theta Eridani, a system 120 Ly's from Earth (but some sources have it pegged much closer, a similar distance that Celes is from Earth - aka about 60 LY's).

I used ChatGPT to help me extrapolate the distances.
If we use real life Achernar distance, then Theta Eridani (Acamar) would be139 odd ly's from Earth, the distance between SB-80 and Acamar would be about 80-85 LY's apart.
And if we use closer estimations, that distance falls down to between 10-15 LY's.

At Warp 5, it would take about 125 days to traverse 80 ly's.
And it would take about 20 days to traverse 12.9 Ly's at the same speed.

In interstellar terms, 80 Ly's is actually not that far, even for species that uses Warp 5 (on TNG scale), that's just over 4 months worth of travel.
20 days (or under a month at Warp 5) if the distance is 12.9 Ly's.

Up to you on which one to use... but there's nothing to say that Acamerians didn't improve (or scavenge) a better Warp engine to improve their speeds to Warp 6 (which would be roughly 392x c, and that reduces the time needed for travel to about 75-80 days (aka, under 3 months) if the distance is about 80-85 Ly's.
But if the distance is 10-15 LY's (aka, 12.9 Lys), then the travel time drops to just under 13 days.

 

[dswynne1]

I think at some point one would have to say 'who cares'?

The situation on the Starbase escalated because someone at SF was negligent.
Its a freaking starbase... and despite the possibility it may be in a 'strategically unimportant sector', things have a nasty habit of spinning out of control in such areas whenever the conditions are 'ripe' or are left neglected.

Point being, its a SF starbase, and they allowed the problem to reach this level of neglect... so SF should be the one to fix it.

Here's a potential way to do that: SF could come in and offer a diplomatic solution (like they should have in the first place). They offer the Acamerians onboard that SF will provide educational programs on the starbase and allow them to be co-administrators of the Starbase and actively participate in SF operations in the sector in the interest of cooperation and improvement of relations (which could also be used as a way to show other Acamerians another way of life in the process - a test case of sorts).

If they refuse, simply swoop in with a couple of ships, and beam all of the Acamerians out in a single transporter cycle. Keep them in the pattern buffer if needed until they are returned to their planet of origin, or colonies... then leave a few dedicated engineering ships docked at the Starbase along with security details to modernize the thing, and just reclaim it (and keep a few ships near the starbase - maybe assign one permanently to the station, much like the Defiant was assigned to Ds9).

Quite honestly, you don't allow something as large as a starbase to 'slip through the cracks'... its a massively capable/valuable infrastructure in space that with some tinkering can do wonders.

The Acamerians are not the problem. Neither Federation nor Starfleet feel the need to invest in the maintenance of SB80, which means that the Acamerians have no incentive to do things beyond their section of the station other than stick to their own devices. Besides, they were the ones who did Starfleet a favor by leasing space on the station in the first place, which keeps it relevant. And, personally, the idea that a race needs to be "educated" to meet the standards of a government rubs me the wrong way (see: history of the Bureau of Indian Affairs).

 

[Deks]

The Acamerians are not the problem. Neither Federation nor Starfleet feel the need to invest in the maintenance of SB80, which means that the Acamerians have no incentive to do things beyond their section of the station other than stick to their own devices. Besides, they were the ones who did Starfleet a favor by leasing space on the station in the first place, which keeps it relevant. And, personally, the idea that a race needs to be "educated" to meet the standards of a government rubs me the wrong way (see: history of the Bureau of Indian Affairs).

The Acamerians are PART of the problem.
They settled there just prior to the diplomatic gaff and partly because SF neglected the station.
But, since the SB is still technically SF property, in this instance, it would be an equivalence of squatting. I'm personally not in favour of evicting anyone, but SF created this mess and its their duty to repair the problem.

As for giving the Acamerians education... that's only in the event to fix (and eventually upgrade) the starbase.

Also, there are certain rules of society to follow if you want a FUNCTIONING environment - besides, do you remember the kind of gaff the Vulcans gave Humans for not being ready to join the interstellar community after just emerging from a global war.

The Acamerians would likely be an example of a culture that never grew out of its infancy.

The Bajorans who lived onboard DS9 helped in its maintenance and overall running alongside SF. I don't see why SB-80 should be any different.
People who live in certain areas tend to usually maintain their place of residence - why shouldn't the Acamerians be a part of this when they live on a Starfleet starbase?

The arrangement would probably go a long way in mending some awful relations between UFP and Acamerians (who in turn might end up benefitting from it - because hey, if they are largely nomadic and don't have a 'purpose' that's fine, you don't have to force them to participate, but I bet there will be quite a few of them who will want to... and you also don't have to tolerate behaviour that plays contrary to having a possibly thriving environment and could prevent trade in this part of space - because if local conditions improve, its possible Acamerian society as a whole might benefit).

Listen, people are generally expected to contribute something to larger society if they live in it.
Granted, UFP is a lot more lenient and doesn't force people to have jobs just to survive/live (which is perfectly fine and how things should really be)... but there is a sense of 'purpose' being taught to most societies who live in UFP, so there is likely a certain amount of things everyone does anyway.

Point being, the Acamerians are living on SB-80 and using it as residence. If SF wasn't there the base would probably completely fall apart as a whole because the Acamerians don't have the know-how or ability to even maintain it (like the SF officers who are stationed there without proverbial resources).

 

[Will_Carter]

people are generally expected to contribute something to larger society if they live in it.

What bugs me about all that you said is you're treating the Acamerians like they don't want to help. We simply don't know. The last time we saw the gatherers was in the 2060's. It's twenty years later. Starfleet hasn't used Duotronics in eighty years or so. So...

We don't know if the Acamerians themselves had the werewithal to do proper fixes or have been subsisting off of bodge repairs and redneck engineering around problems. It may be that starfleet didthe stupid thing and forbade them from helping out as unlike DS9 this is starfleet technology. Old, but still starfleet.

I lay the blaim squarely on starfleet's shoulders first for not sending a crew of engieners out to recomission the station at least up to 2260's standards with some adaptors for interfacing with modern kit, and for not treating requests for replacement equipment with any seriousness.

 

[Deks]

What bugs me about all that you said is you're treating the Acamerians like they don't want to help. We simply don't know. The last time we saw the gatherers was in the 2060's. It's twenty years later. Starfleet hasn't used Duotronics in eighty years or so. So...

We don't know if the Acamerians themselves had the werewithal to do proper fixes or have been subsisting off of bodge repairs and redneck engineering around problems. It may be that starfleet didthe stupid thing and forbade them from helping out as unlike DS9 this is starfleet technology. Old, but still starfleet.

I lay the blaim squarely on starfleet's shoulders first for not sending a crew of engieners out to recomission the station at least up to 2260's standards with some adaptors for interfacing with modern kit, and for not treating requests for replacement equipment with any seriousness.

I never said the Acamerians don't want to help. And you are accurate, we just don't know, but that's also why my proposed solution is more than reasonable because SB-80 is technically still Starfleet's own structure.

Because the Acamarians are already on SB-80, SF should offer them the needed education to be proper co-administrators of the said starbase much like SF had an arrangement with the Bajorans (to whom the station belonged to after they took it from the Cardassians, and SF swooped in at the request from the provisional government to prevent the Cardassians from coming back).

Obviously the situation is somewhat different here since SB-80 is Starfleet's already, but this way, SF can leverage the use of pre-existing people onboard SB-80 without having to send too many of their own people that might be deemed a 'waste of resources' if they don't deem the sector as too relevant (now). All SF really needs to do is send one ship with a diplomat and enough supplies/tools to get things started.

In fairness, I can see why my solution seemingly 'punishes' the Acamerians, but lets be fair, they didn't exactly help foster a 'welcoming' environment on SB-80 either.
So, while SF is LARGELY to blame, the Acamerians aren't exempt from not offering a more helping hand to SF personnel onboard (who are technically struggling).

 

[Will_Carter]

In fairness, I can see why my solution seemingly 'punishes' the Acamerians, but lets be fair, they didn't exactly help foster a 'welcoming' environment on SB-80 either.

Most of my complaint is how it looks like you're painting the Acamerians with the same brush that ... to be tactful? People like my parents paint minorities with. So that kinda automatically gets my back up.

THAT SAID?

That exact framing could be a goldmine for storytelling. These guys fled what they felt was a government that didn't want them. They're not lazy. Their way of life simply isn't wanted. So they left. Now they have to deal with a starbase that half-works, but they're making do.

And now another government shows up.

SB80 has the potential for a lot of story with just that alone. Add in the fact Starfleet's frankly... DISTURBINGLY incompetence here?

 

[Will_Carter]

WELP....

Looks like SB80 has suddenly hit center stage.