Star Wars Theory - Vader fanfilm

Discussion in 'Star Wars' started by Stephen!, Dec 22, 2018.

  1. Tuskin38

    Tuskin38 Vice Admiral Admiral

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    I don’t see anything wrong with how the non-movie material as portrayed Vader over the years.

    The new canon comics have done a lot with Vader without him resorting to his lightsaber
     
  2. HugeLobes

    HugeLobes Captain Captain

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    TBF, I haven't seen much outside the movies, but most of what I have seen has concentrated on Vader the fighter. It all comes down to how the Jedi have changed. If you look at the OT, Jedi weren't even such a big deal. They seem a little more like the Bene Gesserit or mentats of the Dune universe. Formidable instead of unstoppable.

    Also, I know this flies in the face of any Vader EU adventures, but I just don't think the character works so well outside the OT. He's one of the finest examples of character development in movie history, and it's so fantastic how we're steadily fed more information about this increasingly interesting man. Outside his own character arc and relationship with Luke, there's just not much for him to do. Just doesn't work as a main character.

    Instead, we're left with crap like this:

    [​IMG]

    Which totally misses what made OT Vader such a great character.
     
    Last edited: Jan 5, 2019
  3. tharpdevenport

    tharpdevenport Admiral Admiral

    Good God that comic panel was awful.
     
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  4. HugeLobes

    HugeLobes Captain Captain

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    Comes up all the time on Quora answers about Vader. Often accompanied by words and phrases like 'badass' and 'master swordsman'.
     
  5. tharpdevenport

    tharpdevenport Admiral Admiral

    I weep for that fandom.


    Sadly, it appears (from a brief search) that the second part is not only NOT filming, but there is no time table as to when it'll happen. If at all!
     
  6. Ithekro

    Ithekro Vice Admiral Admiral

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    A lot of the OT fear of Vader was by his physical presence in the scene along with his breathing and deep voice. However there is also the idea there is something to backup all the intimidation he's got on screen, plus the concept that this is the individual that killed Luke's father (at first anyway. The man that betrayed and murdered the best star pilot in the galaxy). Later when we find out he is Luke's father, and by the PT and Clone Wars see just who Anakin Skywalker was, it stands to reason that Darth Vader would still be the sort to just go and do things himself. Lead from the front. He might not be as mobile as he once was, but the intimidation of his being, more than makes up for that on the battlefield. Add to this his preexisting skills....Everyone is rightly fearful on this machine man in black. Not only because he's scary in the room, but he can also backup his scary with action equally scary and destructive.
     
  7. fireproof78

    fireproof78 Admiral Admiral

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    That panel is kind of my example of when Vader does not work. Now, I don't think that every EU story fails on this level. That panel, to me, illustrates what came about with the PT-that Dark Side users are very overpowered and unfailable, regardless of the odds. Now, to be fair, that same comic series had some wonderful demonstration of Vader manipulating the Imperial machine in his favor.

    I agree that Vader is difficult to write. This comes, somewhat, back on topic as I finally watched the film. One, his dialog is hit and miss when engages with the Emperor. It's a little bit better with the troopers, and even with Padme (surprisingly enough). The visuals of the fan film are well done, overall, as well as the whole premise of returning to Naboo. However, the dream sequence went a little longer for my taste, as well as the Emperor's taunting of Vader.
     
  8. Tuskin38

    Tuskin38 Vice Admiral Admiral

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    I'm not seeing any issue here.

    Why can't he be both?

    The Comics have both action and normal intimidation as seen in the movies.
     
  9. HugeLobes

    HugeLobes Captain Captain

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    I think people are getting too hung up on the 'intimidating' thing. Yes, Vader is intimidating, but that's not what makes him interesting. So ... I've written a long, unasked for breakdown of Vader's development.

    You’re introduced to Vader as this huge monster who lifts people by the throat and throws them against bulkheads.

    “Commander, tear this ship apart until you’ve found those plans. And bring me the passengers – I want them alive!”

    At first, he’s just a strongman who intimidates people, but then ANH keeps adding layers.
    • He’s smart and thinks strategically.
    • He’s articulate.
    • He was once good but was “seduced by the Dark Side”.
    • He has a respectful sort of friendship with Tarkin.
    • He has a strange kind of spiritual side.
    “Don’t be too proud of this technological terror you’ve constructed. The ability to destroy a planet is insignificant next to the power of the Force.”

    He then fights a duel with someone others dismissed as an ‘old man’, and we get this great sense of the history between the two.

    Then we hit ESB, and Vader’s character gets even more interesting and complex:
    • First look at Vader in a position of vulnerability, with helmet off and scars exposed.
    • First look at how subservient he is to the Emperor.
    The language around his fall also starts to shift. The first movie says he was ‘seduced’, but the whole turn to evil is pretty straightforward.

    In ESB, he becomes more tragic:
    • “once you start down the dark path, forever will it dominate your destiny. Consume you it will, as it did Obi-Wan’s apprentice”
    • “if you choose the quick and easy path, as Vader did, you will become an agent of evil”
    We also see how easily Luke could become like Vader through the cave confrontation. Finally, there’s the father twist. These reveals change the audience’s perception of Vader, making him more tragic, complex, and ultimately human.

    That change is completed in ROTJ. We now get language like:
    • “suffer your father’s fate"
    • “he’s more machine now than man, twisted and evil”
    Vader has become a victim more than a villain. He even acknowledges this himself (“it is too late for me, son”), and he’s similarly fatalistic about Luke’s own fall (“it is pointless to resist”).

    The great thing about Luke and Vader’s final duel is that neither character aims to kill. Luke is holding back, trying to validate his own attempt to resist the Dark Side by bringing his father back from it. Vader is goading Luke, trying to validate his own faith in “the power of the Dark Side” by corrupting Luke.

    They actually both accomplish that goal since Luke does snap and almost turns, but Vader ultimately comes back because of Luke’s sacrifice. He redeems himself in an act of self-sacrifice, and it’s the symbolic rather than physical salvation he ultimately values (“I’ve got to save you”/”You already have, Luke.")

    When the mask is finally removed, we see an average guy, pallid and weak - Anakin looks more like a timid village vicar than a 'dark lord', which is just one reason I hate how they switched the ghost for a glowering Hayden. You actually feel something for this mysterious man trapped behind a mask and voice box for all those years, shattered and alone. It’s more tragic than any of the forced crap we had through the prequels.
    _
    Okay, so why did I bother writing all this? Because I think people forget just how fantastically written Darth Vader was in the OT.

    Yes, sure. But intimidation was the least important part of his character. The initial intimidation misdirects your perception of Vader, who then turns out to be something different from what you might expect.

    It would have been so easy to have him fighting all the time, leading charges and deflecting lasers, but instead they took someone who could easily have been just the muscle and made him the trilogy’s most complex character. It’s like a reverse Obi-Wan/Yoda.
    • At first, Ben Kenobi is just this old man, then he whips out a lightsabre and eventually fights Vader to a standstill, and you’re like, ‘okay, I guess this ‘old fossil’ is actually pretty powerful.
    • At first, Yoda is this silly muppet, then he’s revealed to be deeply wise and powerful.
    • At first, Vader is just a monster enforcer, then he’s revealed to be someone deep, intelligent and tragic.
    Taking Vader and showing him perform all these stupid manoeuvres with a lightsabre only cheapens the character. From a storytelling POV, it’s doing the exact opposite of what made Vader interesting.

    I'm sorry, but it doesn't stand to reason at all. Vader has control over entire fleets. He’s a man who gives orders to the people who give orders. The idea that Darth Vader would deign to get his hands dirty fighting on the front lines is stupid. He’s not some kind of super soldier – he’s a capable commander who just happens to also have a lightsabre. Those were just laser swords in the OT, not some kind of super weapon. Vader would have to be a complete idiot to risk himself like that. If OT Vader had attempted what he did in Rogue One or that fan film, he probably would have been crushed. Luke was more powerful than Vader by ROTJ, and he wasn't some kind of unstoppable hero.

    Again, turning him into that sort of character completely misses the point.

    Anyway… could you create a Vader movie with that same impact as OT Vader? I think not. His development is so bound up within that trilogy. The development from this:

    [​IMG]

    To this:

    [​IMG]

    It's just so perfect, and it's not even the main focus of the trilogy. The character is steadily and subtly developed from 'badass' to tragic hero within the framework of a larger story. It's very self-contained within those three films, and I think anything outside the OT kinda detracts from his development, especially since his character was mainly important (at least in the last two films) because of how he related to Luke.

    Taken apart from that framework and seperated from the journey of Luke Skywalker, he becomes nothing more than an enforcer, which is exactly what happened in Rogue One. Ultimately, we've already had Vader's story. It was perfect. Move on.
     
    Last edited: Jan 23, 2019
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  10. Ithekro

    Ithekro Vice Admiral Admiral

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    People are after the enforcer. The dying soul of Anakin Skywalker that does not have hope anymore. The Sith Lord that is conflicted between plotting to take over as a Sith Lord is supposed to do under the Rule of Two or be content to remain under the only personal attachment he can still cling too....Palpatine. People want to see how he got his reputation, rather than just be told about it.

    His redemption story is done. That was interesting, and some would say, the point of his character. But what other people want is where he was between getting in the suit at the end of Revenge of the Sith, and when he starts to chase after the plans to the Death Star at the end of Rogue One. Mentally. Physically. Emotionally. Anakin Skywalker....Darth Vader.
     
  11. Tuskin38

    Tuskin38 Vice Admiral Admiral

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    The Vader Comic arc that just finished was amazing, emotional, delving into the mind if Vader, what was going on in there.
     
  12. fireproof78

    fireproof78 Admiral Admiral

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    For me its the overpowered presentation of Vader, rather than just showcasing Vader's tactical prowess as well as combat ability.

    The majority of the comic is well done but that scene doesn't work for me.
     
  13. KennyB

    KennyB Rear Admiral Premium Member

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    Damn that sounds so familiar..........hope it is actually true this time.
     
  14. LJones41

    LJones41 Commodore Commodore

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    Why is it that Vader isn't allowed to be portrayed beyond how he was portrayed in the OT, especially in "A New Hope"? I find this clinging to his OT portrayal a bit one-dimensional.
     
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  15. mos6507

    mos6507 Commodore Commodore

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    This is...not surprising.

     
  16. CorporalCaptain

    CorporalCaptain Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    I have no comment on the monetization issue at this time, because I'm still not clear on all the facts in play, particularly regarding who flagged what exactly. But the fan film episode 1 is outstanding.
     
  17. Tuskin38

    Tuskin38 Vice Admiral Admiral

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    Just flagging a piece of music, nothing that’s a big deal.
     
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  18. CorporalCaptain

    CorporalCaptain Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    Next question: how does something that's not a big deal put money in Disney's pocket that wasn't going there before?
     
  19. Turtletrekker

    Turtletrekker Admiral Admiral

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    I definitely noticed the Imperial March, and I could swear I heard parts that were very similar to Anakin and Padme's theme as well as the Emperor's theme.
     
  20. CorporalCaptain

    CorporalCaptain Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    Yeah, I noticed that the music was obviously familiar. Yet the characters and visuals were obviously familiar too....
     
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