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Spoilers Star Wars: The Rise of Skywalker - Grading & Discussion

Grade the movie...


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But Leia did do her space jesus bit in TLJ floating through the ether to the other ship.

I really didn't like that, but I think the implication was more that this was the Force coming to her in a critical moment more than her making use of training. Unsure since it's been a while since I saw the movie. Anyway, I'm not saying she couldn't learn to be a Jedi, just that she wouldn't really have any drive to do so.
 
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Also it seemed like a cop out when they brought back Palpatine. We got a clear death scene in ROTJ and no explanation for his survival. They could have made it another grandchild or another apprentice Vader didn't know about and made it a little less of a rehash. They still could have had him carry the spirit of Palpatine and played into the "I am all Sith" thing.
 
Also it seemed like a cop out when they brought back Palpatine. We got a clear death scene in ROTJ and no explanation for his survival. They could have made it another grandchild or another apprentice Vader didn't know about and made it a little less of a rehash. They still could have had him carry the spirit of Palpatine and played into the "I am all Sith" thing.

Palpatine is immensely popular among prequel fans, and it's just those fans who I've found were most disappointed with TLJ. I can't help thinking bringing him back was at least partly an easy way to appease those fans and bring them back into the fold. Unsure why they needed another big villain when Kylo had already taken up the mantle in TLJ.
 
If I imagine his body being a clone that his Dark Spirit inhabited(thus explaining why it's in such awful condition and even missing parts of fingers when we first see him, not to mention the fact that his body is being suspended on life-support equipment) and it's not the same body that Anakin destroyed aboard the second Death Star then it makes a lot more sense. It's still pitifully and laughably explained but at least it would tie into the old Expanded Universe about how Palpatine's spirit wandered through space until it went into one of his clone bodies.
 
If I imagine his body being a clone that his Dark Spirit inhabited(thus explaining why it's in such awful condition and even missing parts of fingers when we first see him, not to mention the fact that his body is being suspended on life-support equipment) and it's not the same body that Anakin destroyed aboard the second Death Star then it makes a lot more sense. It's still pitifully and laughably explained but at least it would tie into the old Expanded Universe about how Palpatine's spirit wandered through space until it went into one of his clone bodies.

That's pretty much what's in my head canon, and it's as good as we're going to get.
 
If I imagine his body being a clone that his Dark Spirit inhabited(thus explaining why it's in such awful condition and even missing parts of fingers when we first see him, not to mention the fact that his body is being suspended on life-support equipment) and it's not the same body that Anakin destroyed aboard the second Death Star then it makes a lot more sense. It's still pitifully and laughably explained but at least it would tie into the old Expanded Universe about how Palpatine's spirit wandered through space until it went into one of his clone bodies.

Hmm... hadn't thought about his force spirit. I was thinking that the real Palpatine discovered Exogul sometime between ROTS and ROTJ. The emporor we see in ROTJ is a clone.
 
Her being Palpy's granddaughter didn't create any personal conflict for her.
Completely disagree. Rey is a person who is constantly wrestling with who she is and then she finds out her ancestry and is even more conflicted as to using her powers in the Force. No conflict? She goes back to Ach To and plans to hide herself away! And then she is actually tempted to kill Palpatine and assume the throne of the Sith.
I know there are reasons Leia might want to learn the ways of the force, but from what we know of her character it doesn't seem like she'd have any real inclination.
I don't know if Leia would necessarily want to, but Luke might have been more insistent with her, especially with his telling her in ROTJ "In time, you'll learn to use it as I have."
Also it seemed like a cop out when they brought back Palpatine. We got a clear death scene in ROTJ and no explanation for his survival. They could have made it another grandchild or another apprentice Vader didn't know about and made it a little less of a rehash. They still could have had him carry the spirit of Palpatine and played into the "I am all Sith" thing.
I don't see the issue, any more than I saw it with the books and novels. Palpatine states that he has been killed before, and that his spirit will pass to Rey once she kills him.
If I imagine his body being a clone that his Dark Spirit inhabited(thus explaining why it's in such awful condition and even missing parts of fingers when we first see him, not to mention the fact that his body is being suspended on life-support equipment) and it's not the same body that Anakin destroyed aboard the second Death Star then it makes a lot more sense. It's still pitifully and laughably explained but at least it would tie into the old Expanded Universe about how Palpatine's spirit wandered through space until it went into one of his clone bodies.
That was exactly my read as I watched it last night.
That's pretty much what's in my head canon, and it's as good as we're going to get.
I don't know why we need more.
 
I don't know why we need more.

Just to be clear though - what is the official in-movie explanation of Palpatine being in this film after his apparent 'death'. I've only seen TROS once on opening weekend and I either missed it, or it just wasn't explained in any way.
 
Just to be clear though - what is the official in-movie explanation of Palpatine being in this film after his apparent 'death'. I've only seen TROS once on opening weekend and I either missed it, or it just wasn't explained in any way.

"The Dark Side of the Force is a pathway to many abilities some consider to be unnatural".

That quote, repurposed from JJ's favorite scene in the Prequels, is the explanation... for now, anyway.

And that's honestly all the explanation that the film itself needed to include even though there was exposition stuff filmed that will probably end up in the home media release.
 
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Skimming some of the discussion about Finn's character brought me back. Just because Lucasfilm, Kennedy, Abrams, or Terrio don't "see" negative racial stereotyping or negative implications to the Finn character, and there's no evidence we've seen that they don't, just like some would say there no evidence that they do, doesn't mean the negative racial stereotyping did not exist, or that certain moviegoers saw or it felt that it had been done.

Well said. As I've pointed out before, the SW-PTB are not new to this world. There's no way they--living in this country and being as old as they are--are just happy-go-lucky innocent people. The history of racial stereotypes in the media and marketing have been taught in universities for decades, while the aggressive fight against its use by activists has been a part of the American landscape even longer. Anyone denying the SW-PTB just did not know what they were doing are conning themselves and no one else.

No excuses.

I'm not making a blanket assertion that white males in principle, or in general, can't make culturally aware and nuanced films or create non-white characters, to be clear, but when it comes to Finn and Disney Star Wars the proof is in the pudding.

...and again, this is NewLFL/Disney that spent the life of this new group of Star Wars films screaming about how "socially progressive" they were ("the Force is female", etc.), yet the one black male lead boils down to:
  • Finn is a bumbling minstrel with no cause or identity of his own.
  • Finn could not be a defecting trooper with a plot about his reclaiming his identity. Instead, the most backstory ever presented was that he was the Old Hollywood stereotype a buffoonish black sanitation worker. He had to have a "lowly" position of no respect, as registered on the faces of anyone who learned his occupation. Mantan Moreland reborn.
  • The icing on this shameful cake? Like a slave on the run, he is given his new name by Poe, and Finn just accepts it. No protest. No asserting his right to establish his own character / identity. He just accepted "Massa Poe" giving him a name. And before anyone says that was the point, not for one damn minute was a slavery allegory what the SW-PTB had for Finn's past experiences/motives for wanting to defect, as it would have been easy to lay it out--as muc as it was for TPM to do it with Anakin. But a story that would have given Finn a chance to escape the physcial/psychological bonds of hoe who captured him in childhood as that did not lend itself to his being a Black Buffoon. They used the demeaning relationship of the slave not being responsible for himself, because he was meant to be pulled along by others. Says it all. Finn sent an undeniably toxic, intended racial message heard around the world.
Again, no excuses.

Though it's also simply not an issue of having one or even a handful of people of color in the writing rooms and boardrooms, it also has to be a willingness to hear and consider what they have to say if their views are divergent and if they are willing or able to bring in a different racial/cultural perspective.

The recent controversy over Star Trek: Discovery (one of the most "socially progressive" shows/staffs on air) and their "we know best" mistreatment of writer Walter Mosely (regarding his right to self-identify, including how slurs were used in his personal experiences) show just how intolerant the allegedly most tolerant, people on earth are not at all open to perspectives that they cannot control, and certainly do not understand. If it does not fit into their overreaching view of what kind of progressivism is "right," they strike it down and/or ignore it. This is far from isolated to ST:D, or the Star Wars sequel trilogy.

People being blind or callous even to racial discrimination or disparities is not unusual. If it's not your experience, if it doesn't affect your life, and then also if you're living inside the insulated bubble of Hollywood

...and the circles of the nation who walk in lockstep with the entertainment business and their most hammered sociopolitical interests--and blacks are not truly among those interests.

As for the charge that a few, basically a minority, only take issue with Finn (which is debatable since Finn does not seem to be a broadly embraced character among black Americans; compare him to the Black Panther characters for example),

..or black characters within the SW film franchise. In 1980, there was some idiotic resistance to Lando (ignoring how he was forced to betray Han), but he still became an instant hero--a man who did not stand in the footprints of racial stereotypes, but was a man who ultimately asserted himself in the face of an evil (Vader) he only partially understood (like most characters until they got a taste of Vader's threats-into-action). So many black audience members accepted/loved Lando. He was every bit the hero as say, Han (fitting, as he was meant to be a mirror of sorts of Solo), and not a buffoonish fool while everyone else had their moments of heroism and expression, as plainly laid out in the ST.

What I am getting here is an attempt to dismiss these concerns, that 'you people' (my words here) are too sensitive and you need to 'stop seeing racism everywhere' kind of thinking

How they have no idea how dismissive statements of that kind read like a word-for-word transcript of the right wingers they claim to stand above. .

Don't interrupt my fun. It's 'your problem' not mine. And 'get over it'. It also reminds me of how the 'vocal minority' charge was used by Disney and the Hollywood media, among others, to dismiss The Last Jedi detractors.

Absolutely. They can deny it until doomsday, but Disney/NewLFL used the same terms and approach as their allegedly ideological opposites. A clear example of the truth coming out when they are "pushed" by those who are meant to happily accept their view of the world, shut-up and empty their bank accounts.
 
"The Dark Side of the Force is a pathway to many abilities some consider to be unnatural".

That quote, repurposed from JJ's favorite scene in the Prequels, is the explanation... for now, anyway.

And that's honestly all the explanation that the film itself needed to include even though there was exposition stuff filmed that will probe end up in the home media release.

Yeah I remember that line in TROS. I guess it will have to do.
 
I’m not saying Palpatine coming back is a logical problem, I’m saying it’s boring compared to the other directions they could have gone.

Also one small missed opportunity worth mentioning. I was sure they snake was going to save them from the storm troopers. Why didn’t they do that? It was obvious and would have looked cool!
 
I genuinely don't think it boring at all. I personally love that we see the intensely personal stakes of what the Jedi and the Sith stand for, what lengths each will go in pursuit of their goals. And, yes, that was done, in part, on the PT. But the ST gave it more flesh, in my opinion. It highlights so many themes set out in the PT, but were never fully fleshed out.
It was obvious and would have looked cool!
If it was just to look cool and was obvious I'm glad they didn't. No, not in a "subversion" way but in a avoid the rule of cool way. There was enough rule of cool in the film as it was. Some worked; some didn't.
 
Completely disagree. Rey is a person who is constantly wrestling with who she is and then she finds out her ancestry and is even more conflicted as to using her powers in the Force. No conflict? She goes back to Ach To and plans to hide herself away! And then she is actually tempted to kill Palpatine and assume the throne of the Sith.

Her conflict isn't due to the knowledge of her being Palpatine's granddaughter, or at least that was my reading of it. She was conflicted in that she felt the pull of the dark side and was scared. Luke, in TLJ, commented on how she seemed easily drawn to it (I don't remember the exact verbiage); That was when the narrative was her parents being nobodies. Yes, she may have wanted to kill Palps, but was that due to her being his granddaughter? Maybe... but it really didn't seem like it, at least when you take then entire trilogy into account.

And the whole kill Palps, automatically turn to the darkside thing never really made sense to me anyway (this includes ROTJ).
 
JJA could have left Rey as the daughter of Mr. and Mrs. Drunkardnobody and it would have changed absolutely nothing in TROS.

Her being Palpy's granddaughter didn't create any personal conflict for her. There's no connection between the two... It's not like she sat on Palpy's knee as a child while he talked about the good ol' days. She had the vision of evil-Rey and was revolted, so clearly she has no desire to follow in his footsteps as a Sith lord.

The only reason I can think of for changing Rey's ancestry, is to explain her ability to master in minutes, techniques that took previous Jedi years of training. I guess it's not completely without precedent. Luke too picked up Jedi abilities at a record pace in ESB.
I think at least part of it was also to make her a mirror of Ben, with him being a member of a light side family who turned to the dark side, and her being a member of a dark side family who was a light sider.
 
I’m not saying Palpatine coming back is a logical problem, I’m saying it’s boring compared to the other directions they could have gone.

I wouldn't say it was boring. Palpatine is a pretty cool villain. I do think it was lazy though; Then again, JJA needed a new big-bad the audience would be familiar with, seeing as a how Snoke went out like a b#$*%.
 
Her conflict isn't due to the knowledge of her being Palpatine's granddaughter, or at least that was my reading of it. She was conflicted in that she felt the pull of the dark side and was scared. Luke, in TLJ, commented on how she seemed easily drawn to it (I don't remember the exact verbiage); That was when the narrative was her parents being nobodies. Yes, she may have wanted to kill Palps, but was that due to her being his granddaughter? Maybe... but it really didn't seem like it, at least when you take then entire trilogy into account.
I disagree but that's OK. My read was her initial hesitation was due to the draw of the dark. But, as the film moved there was active and violent push back against her heritage, slowing morphing in to her feeling like it was inevitable. That's when she considers killing Palpatine, because that nothing she could stop. It was an apparent surrender to the conflict.

Again, my read. Personally, I thought she was highly conflicted throughout the film, and it gave more weight in the final moments.
 
Well said. As I've pointed out before, the SW-PTB are not new to this world. There's no way they--living in this country and being as old as they are--are just happy-go-lucky innocent people. The history of racial stereotypes in the media and marketing have been taught in universities for decades, while the aggressive fight against its use by activists has been a part of the American landscape even longer. Anyone denying the SW-PTB just did not know what they were doing are conning themselves and no one else.

No excuses.



...and again, this is NewLFL/Disney that spent the life of this new group of Star Wars films screaming about how "socially progressive" they were ("the Force is female", etc.), yet the one black male lead boils down to:
  • Finn is a bumbling minstrel with no cause or identity of his own.
  • Finn could not be a defecting trooper with a plot about his reclaiming his identity. Instead, the most backstory ever presented was that he was the Old Hollywood stereotype a buffoonish black sanitation worker. He had to have a "lowly" position of no respect, as registered on the faces of anyone who learned his occupation. Mantan Moreland reborn.
  • The icing on this shameful cake? Like a slave on the run, he is given his new name by Poe, and Finn just accepts it. No protest. No asserting his right to establish his own character / identity. He just accepted "Massa Poe" giving him a name. And before anyone says that was the point, not for one damn minute was a slavery allegory what the SW-PTB had for Finn's past experiences/motives for wanting to defect, as it would have been easy to lay it out--as muc as it was for TPM to do it with Anakin. But a story that would have given Finn a chance to escape the physcial/psychological bonds of hoe who captured him in childhood as that did not lend itself to his being a Black Buffoon. They used the demeaning relationship of the slave not being responsible for himself, because he was meant to be pulled along by others. Says it all. Finn sent an undeniably toxic, intended racial message heard around the world.
Again, no excuses.



The recent controversy over Star Trek: Discovery (one of the most "socially progressive" shows/staffs on air) and their "we know best" mistreatment of writer Walter Mosely (regarding his right to self-identify, including how slurs were used in his personal experiences) show just how intolerant the allegedly most tolerant, people on earth are not at all open to perspectives that they cannot control, and certainly do not understand. If it does not fit into their overreaching view of what kind of progressivism is "right," they strike it down and/or ignore it. This is far from isolated to ST:D, or the Star Wars sequel trilogy.



...and the circles of the nation who walk in lockstep with the entertainment business and their most hammered sociopolitical interests--and blacks are not truly among those interests.



..or black characters within the SW film franchise. In 1980, there was some idiotic resistance to Lando (ignoring how he was forced to betray Han), but he still became an instant hero--a man who did not stand in the footprints of racial stereotypes, but was a man who ultimately asserted himself in the face of an evil (Vader) he only partially understood (like most characters until they got a taste of Vader's threats-into-action). So many black audience members accepted/loved Lando. He was every bit the hero as say, Han (fitting, as he was meant to be a mirror of sorts of Solo), and not a buffoonish fool while everyone else had their moments of heroism and expression, as plainly laid out in the ST.



How they have no idea how dismissive statements of that kind read like a word-for-word transcript of the right wingers they claim to stand above. .



Absolutely. They can deny it until doomsday, but Disney/NewLFL used the same terms and approach as their allegedly ideological opposites. A clear example of the truth coming out when they are "pushed" by those who are meant to happily accept their view of the world, shut-up and empty their bank accounts.

Thanks. I think you've done a good, almost comprehensive job here, in breaking down quite a few of the things that make Finn a racially retrogressive character. While reading your reply here, I thought about Anakin in The Phantom Menace. Even as a young kid, clearly described and depicted as a slave (where it's not explicitly stated with Finn and the First Order child soldier Stormtroopers), he had more agency and personhood than Finn did, in The Force Awakens and arguably throughout most of the rest of the sequel trilogy. Anakin asserted that he was a person clearly in that film.

I was curious by what you meant by an idiotic response to Lando in Empire Strikes Back. Even though I think Lando has been a much better written and used character than Finn, I can imagine that whatever issues some people might have had with him back then it might also came from a valid place. Especially when you consider how few roles like that, in a major film/franchise, had black actors, I could see there being concerns-even more than today-to have positive representation. And as it stands, even though Lando was forced and redeemed himself in the end, and even more so in Return of the Jedi, I can see some folks having an issue with the only black character in Star Wars, at that time, betraying the heroes.

Though it also leads me into thinking that Lando was under no obligation to help or do right by the Rebels (outside of that they were the people the audience mostly identified with and was rooting for). It was hinted that Lando and Han had a fraught past (which one could assume meant mutual betrayals, undercutting, or they were rivals), and Lando was clearly concerned about protecting Cloud City. It's just of course Cloud City and its mostly unseen denizens meant nothing to the audience compared to Luke, Leia, Han, etc., and so it painted Lando at first in a very bad light to betray them. Perhaps if there had been more set up with Cloud City beforehand, some in the audience (including some who might have been put off by Lando working with the Empire) could've had more to weigh in their judgment or concerns about him.
 
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