Spoilers Star Wars: The Last Jedi - Grading & Discussion

[Reverend]

And then what? They'd be at an old unused base with presumably no way to refuel. Or if there were fuel stores at the base, why didn't they jump to it when all the shit started and refuel?

And then they regroup, call their allies. This was explicitly said in the movie.

That doesn't make much sense in space. But then, we also see ships run our of fuel and then suddenly fall back and start to list, which also doesn't make any sense. Such is sci-fi.

It all makes perfect sense. Go look up Newton's first law of motion.

It doesn't sound to me like that was their plan. Before the baddies suddenly and unexpectedly catch up, we get this dialogue. "We need to find a new base." "One with enough power to get a distress signal to our allies scattered in the Outer Rim."

Which us exactly what they did. Leia was just playing it close to the chest as to the specifics.

Sounds to me like they jumped to wherever they felt like and then were just gonna figure something out. Until they got caught sitting and decided to head for the old Rebel base that was luckily extremely close by.

The tie-in media is very clear on this point. It's not mentioned in the movie because it's not relevant. Regardless, they couldn't just jump to wherever they felt like because 1) limited fuel and 2) each individual ship needs to make they're going so they all arrive on the other side together.

 

[David cgc]

That doesn't make much sense in space. But then, we also see ships run our of fuel and then suddenly fall back and start to list, which also doesn't make any sense. Such is sci-fi.

It's a chase. The Resistance ships are continuously accelerating to get away from the First Order ships, which are continuously accelerating to catch up. Since both fleets are accelerating at more-or-less the same rate, they appear to be nearly motionless relative to each other. When each Resistance ship runs out of fuel, it stops accelerating (if you need an explanation for the tumble, each thruster runs out at a slightly different time, pushing the ship off-axis in it's last moment under power), and the First Order ships overtake it, since they're still accelerating. From the point of view of the ships that are still under power, the exhausted ship appears to be slowing down, but it's not, it's just coasting at the same velocity while everyone around it is continuing to speed up.

 

[Tuskin38]

Well, if they only made one jump, then they shouldn't be surprised that they were quickly found.

Before TLJ the only way to track ships through hyperspace was with a physical beacon on the target. The First Order found a way to do that with out it. A second jump wouldn’t have helped.

 

[Prax]

Before TLJ the only way to track ships through hyperspace was with a physical beacon on the target. The First Order found a way to do that with out it. A second jump wouldn’t have helped.

If you only make a single jump, anyone who wants to follow can simply plot the trajectory, and figure out where they'll be, and when. It happens all the time in Star Wars, and is exactly what the First Order did. They didn't have some magic breakthrough.

I heard someone mention an alternative plot idea which is so amazing, I really wish the writers had thought of it:

Have the First Order be able to track the resistance anywhere they try to go. They have no idea how, and give up attempting hyperjumps, thus begins the sublight chase.

The twist: They are tracking the fleet through Finn, who, like all FO stormtroopers, has had a homing beacon implanted in him since childhood. This could be revealed to him by Phasma, adding the irony that the resistance could have fled, and escaped at any point after Finn left on the separate mission.

He gets to Crait the same way, and knowing this terrible truth, and the guilt he has from it, resolves to sacrifice himself (in the same way it plays out in the movie). Either he could succeed, or he could be averted, and have Poe or someone tell him "You couldn't have known. We can remove it. You're one of us now."

What they didn't account for - and couldn't account for - was Poe provoking Hux into chasing them and Leia being taken out of commission.

Are you trying to say that if they'd jumped to hyperspace and NOT attacked the "dreadnought," that Hux wouldn't have tracked and followed them?!

Snoke: "You better have good news for me, Huxxx!"

Hux: "Ohhh, Supreme Leader, sir,...Your majesty, I umm.. They jumped to hyperspace, but don't worry, supreme leader, we'll get 'em next time, I promise."

Snoke: "What was your mission, General? If you don't answer me correctly, I can embarrass you in front of your men."

Hux: "...destroy the res..istance, ..supreme...leader."

Snoke: "Dew it!"

 

[Tuskin38]

They didn't have some magic breakthrough.

Yes they did. it's shown and stated right in the movie.

 

[Prax]

Yes they did. it's shown and stated right in the movie.

I haven't seen the film, but in the novelization, Hux explains the process of finding the ship, and it's the same process that has always been used.

 

[DigificWriter]

I haven't seen the film, but in the novelization, Hux explains the process of finding the ship, and it's the same process that has always been used.

This is incorrect.

Previous to The Last Jedi, the only way to track a ship through hyperspace was to physically 'tag' said ship with a homing beacon, either by placing said beacon aboard said ship directly or on the hull of said ship.

What the First Order figured out how to do was track ships through hyperspace without having to use a homing beacon... and they did so by utilizing an area of technological R&D that had last been studied prior to the Battle of Scarif by the Tarkin Initiative, the secret Imperial think-tank also responsible for the development of the first and second Death Stars.

 

[Reverend]

The key difference between the old and new method is the degree of accuracy. Before, you'd be stuck checking *every* possible destination along a given trajectory with scouts and probes. Depending on said trajectory that could be *thousands* of systems, charted or otherwise which needless to say is impractically laborious for most purposes.
It also would be entirely futile if the target 1) made a second jump before any scouts could catch up to them or 2) the place they jumped to isn't a planet or even a system but some nondescript location in interstellar space, which is exactly what happened in TLJ hence the utter astonishment that they were tracked.

IIRC the novelisation describes the method as being a combination of very precise sensor readings and a colossal amount of raw computer processing power brought to bare on the calculations. So it's not a magical new technology but refining existing technology to the point of overkill...which sounds exactly like the approach the Empire would take.

 

[Tuskin38]

I haven't seen the film, but in the novelization, Hux explains the process of finding the ship, and it's the same process that has always been used.

Why would you read the book before watching the movie?

 

[Tosk]

It all makes perfect sense. Go look up Newton's first law of motion.

Then I am misunderstanding Newton's First Law. That an object in motion stays in motion unless acted upon by an opposing force...what force caused the spaceship to suddenly slow down relative to the rest?

The Resistance ships are continuously accelerating to get away from the First Order ships, which are continuously accelerating to catch up.

Are you saying that they are continuously raising their speed the whole chase? If so, then the unpowered ships falling behind makes sense, but at what point do you reach maximum speed?

I still don't get why the First Order doesn't just jump a ship ahead of them. It's be game over in two minutes.

 

[Prax]

I'll see it eventually.

It also would be entirely futile if the target 1) made a second jump before any scouts could catch up to them or 2) the place they jumped to isn't a planet or even a system but some nondescript location in interstellar space, which is exactly what happened in TLJ hence the utter astonishment that they were tracked.

When the Tantive IV escapes to hyperspace at the end of Rogue One, and exits at Tatooine to pick up Obi-Wan, how did the empire catch them?

Or when Piett told Vader that the Millenium Falcon "must have gone to light speed" Vader says "calculate every possible destination along their last know trajectory."

And the time Anakin chased Ventress to Yavin 4. Those are off the top of my head.

 

[David cgc]

T
Are you saying that they are continuously raising their speed the whole chase? If so, then the unpowered ships falling behind makes sense, but at what point do you reach maximum speed?

It's space. There's no such thing as maximum speed. You can continuously accelerate, asymptotically approaching the speed of light, until you run out of fuel. There's a possibility of relativistic effects, but without knowing quickly Star Wars capital ships accelerate, I can't tell you if they would've come up. Apparently not.

When the Tantive IV escapes to hyperspace at the end of Rogue One, and exits at Tatooine to pick up Obi-Wan, how did the empire catch them?

Or when Piett told Vader that the Millenium Falcon "must have gone to light speed" Vader says "calculate every possible destination along their last know trajectory."

And the time Anakin chased Ventress to Yavin 4. Those are off the top of my head.

The two of those three cases that paid off had the advantage of a man who's better than any technological aid at tracking people. Remember how he identified a Rebel base (including one specific Rebel) from a single grainy photo? If there were dozens or hundreds or even thousands of possible destinations along a given trajectory, Vader/Anakin would be uniquely suited to picking out the right one.

 

[Tosk]

It's space. There's no such thing as maximum speed. You can continuously accelerate, asymptotically approaching the speed of light, until you run out of fuel. There's a possibility of relativistic effects, but without knowing quickly Star Wars capital ships accelerate, I can't tell you if they would've come up. Apparently not.

It's weird that they are accelerating for 18 hours, getting faster and faster and then the little shuttles leave and outrun the main ship with no effort whatsoever. And then soon we see the shuttles traveling away from the main ship at a right angle (or close enough) and the main ship doesn't really ever get away from them. And when we cut to the First Order stuff (Finn and Rose in the hangar) we see ships just trundling here and there, all very relaxed looking ("I don't know, fly casual."). It just doesn't scream "everyone has their foot to the floor" to me.

 

[Prax]

It's space. There's no such thing as maximum speed. You can continuously accelerate, asymptotically approaching the speed of light, until you run out of fuel. There's a possibility of relativistic effects, but without knowing quickly Star Wars capital ships accelerate, I can't tell you if they would've come up. Apparently not.



The two of those three cases that paid off had the advantage of a man who's better than any technological aid at tracking people. Remember how he identified a Rebel base (including one specific Rebel) from a single grainy photo? If there were dozens or hundreds or even thousands of possible destinations along a given trajectory, Vader/Anakin would be uniquely suited to picking out the right one.

So "the force"?

Why does vader bother telling the captain to calculate trajectories or hire bounty hunters? The Tantive IV is the same scenario. Ship escape destruction in battle against empire, jumps to hyperspace, returns to sublight, empire shows up.

 

[Reverend]

Then I am misunderstanding Newton's First Law. That an object in motion stays in motion unless acted upon by an opposing force...what force caused the spaceship to suddenly slow down relative to the rest?

Now go look up inertial frames...or just pay attention to David cgc since he's already explained it fairly succinctly. Or just watch this.

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Are you saying that they are continuously raising their speed the whole chase?

Yes.

If so, then the unpowered ships falling behind makes sense, but at what point do you reach maximum speed?

Light speed; which depending on the rate of acceleration could take years.

I still don't get why the First Order doesn't just jump a ship ahead of them. It's be game over in two minutes.

Three factors: 1) we don't know if jumps that small are a thing. 2) if they enter hyperspace then the Resistance ships can jump unobserved, which means they loose the tracking lock. 3) Hux is a grandstanding idiot with the tactical and strategic acumen of a kowakian monkey lizard.

When the Tantive IV escapes to hyperspace at the end of Rogue One, and exits at Tatooine to pick up Obi-Wan, how did the empire catch them?

A radiation leak (hence why they were docked for repairs in the first place) left a very distinct and traceable signature.

Or when Piett told Vader that the Millenium Falcon "must have gone to light speed" Vader says "calculate every possible destination along their last know trajectory."

Because he was desperate and determined not to give up the chase for Skywalker if he had to turn the whole galaxy inside out. As I already described, that could be thousands of possible systems across half the galaxy. Anyway, they never actually jumped, so it's moot.

And the time Anakin chased Ventress to Yavin 4. Those are off the top of my head.

1) That's not canon. 2) Because she wanted him to follow. 3) Probably the force. 4) See: '1'

 

[Tosk]

2) if they enter hyperspace then the Resistance ships can jump unobserved, which means they loose the tracking lock.

You don't all jump. You send one Star Destroyer. Or heck, four. There are heaps of them there.

1) we don't know if jumps that small are a thing.

Doesn't need to be. You jump away and jump back. The First Order have heaps of ships in the chase, and they can communicate.

3) Hux is a grandstanding idiot with the tactical and strategic acumen of a kowakian monkey lizard.

Yes, I agree. The script makes it so that Hux has the tactical strategic acumen of a kowakian monkey lizard.

 

[Reverend]

You don't all jump. You send one Star Destroyer. Or heck, four. There are heaps of them there.

Space is three dimensional.

 

[Tosk]

Space is three dimensional.

How does that help the hoofing-it-in-a-straight-line Rebels? And if they turn they sacrifice the thing keeping them alive. And it doesn't help, they still get skewered. And and why turn at all when they would have no idea what was coming? It'd be a slaughter.

 

[Captaindemotion]

Why would you read the book before watching the movie?

I must admit, I read the novelisations of ESB and ROTJ (as well as those of Indiana Jones and the TOD & Star Trek: TWOK) before I saw the films. With ESB and TWOK, I’d missed them in the cinema and it was the days where you’d wait forever to see them on tv but with ROTJ & TOD, it was a conscious decision while I was waiting for them to reach our cinemas. I wouldn’t read the book before the film now, though.

 

[BillJ]

Saw it for the second time last night, I think it is a solid 'B'.

Liked the Luke, Rey, Kylo Ren story. The Rebel ships being chased was pretty dull.