Spoilers Star Wars: The Last Jedi - Grading & Discussion

[Lakenheath 72]

I can understand Dameron being in trouble for disobeying orders when he went after the last cannon on the dreadnought. However, he was not the person in charge of the Resistance's assets. That responsibility fell upon Leia and Ackbar and Holdo and whomever else was higher in rank than him. If the bombers were that valuable, and the mission was too risky for them, then they had the ability to abort the mission and recall the bombers. However, it looks like the higher ups acceded their authority to a subordinate and then blamed him for their f**k up.

 

[fireproof78]

I can understand Dameron being in trouble for disobeying orders when he went after the last cannon on the dreadnought. However, he was not the person in charge of the Resistance's assets. That responsibility fell upon Leia and Ackbar and Holdo and whomever else was higher in rank than him. If the bombers were that valuable, and the mission was too risky for them, then they had the ability to abort the mission and recall the bombers. However, it looks like the higher ups acceded their authority to a subordinate and then blamed him for their f**k up.

He was ordered to fall back! Multiple times.

I like Poe and all, but trust him? No.

 

[Prax]

He was ordered to fall back! Multiple times.

I like Poe and all, but trust him? No.

Since he was proven right, and saved everyone by his disobedience, I think they can trust him. What concern could she possibly have about telling him that there is a plan?

 

[fireproof78]

Since he was proven right, and saved everyone by his disobedience, I think they can trust him. What concern could she possibly have about telling him that there is a plan?

Trust. That's it. Just trust.

 

[Lakenheath 72]

Her concern was that she did not want to be seen as a hero. So, she tells Dameron and he tells someone, then they tell someone, than it spreads. She becomes seen as a hero for having a plan which might save them. However, if she does not tell him, she won't be seen as a hero and, if the plan works, the Resistance (the light) will have been saved.

The implication in this is that she did not tell anyone and parceled out the orders to one group or another group when they played a role in her plan. Dameron had no role in her plans. He was a sidelined fighter pilot.

Yet, if her plan worked, she would be seen as a martyr to the cause when the cruiser's fuel ran out and the ship was destroyed. Don't be a hero, be a martyr.

Again,

 

[fireproof78]

Her concern was that she did not want to be seen as a hero. So, she tells Dameron and he tells someone, then they tell someone, than it spreads. She becomes seen as a hero for having a plan which might save them. However, if she does not tell him, she won't be seen as a hero and, if the plan works, the Resistance (the light) will have been saved.

The implication in this is that she did not tell anyone and parceled out the orders to one group or another group when they played a role in her plan. Dameron had no role in her plans. He was a sidelined fighter pilot.

Yet, if her plan worked, she would be seen as a martyr to the cause when the cruiser's fuel ran out and the ship was destroyed. Don't be a hero, be a martyr.

Again,

Ok...

 

[Tosk]

He was ordered to fall back! Multiple times.

Yeah, but why didn't Leia order the bombers back?

They did. Poe was upset by it. It was a whole big to-do, there was a mutiny and everything.

I mean everyone. Like officially, everyone get together and leave while the Bad Guys follow the ship they still think they're on? That's the plan they go with eventually, why didn't they just do it sooner? (Yes, they cloak and run later, but if you can sneak off why bother with the base at all? Just sneak off and scatter.) If their entire plan is to go to an old Rebel base and close the door, why not just jump there instead of losing ships doing it the long way?

And I never thought about this before, but how damn close is that base that they can get there in 18 hours without lightspeed?

 

[Set Harth]

And I never thought about this before, but how damn close is that base that they can get there in 18 hours without lightspeed?

Johnson, like most at least slightly nerdy dudes of his generation, reveres TESB. He even reportedly carried around a book on the making of TESB during production. That's why his film, in keeping with its predecessor, largely copies the basic plot structure of Kershner's film. Unfortunately, in aping TESB it even goes so far as to copy TESB's big mistake: getting to the next system without lightspeed. Hell, why not? To coin a phrase, making a damn bit of sense don't get butts in seats.

For them to get to Crait the way they did, they must have been on the outskirts of Crait's system the whole time. Of course no one ever mentions any such thing. We never hear one word about Crait until BOOM it's suddenly there visible outside the window and huge.

But space does not work that way! This is another thing the film shares with its predecessor. It's as if JJ Abrams - responsible for the astronomical ignorance on display in Star Trek, Star Trek Into Darkness, and The Force Awakens - was still in charge.

 

[fireproof78]

Lucas did it first.

 

[David cgc]

For them to get to Crait the way they did, they must have been on the outskirts of Crait's system the whole time. Of course no one ever mentions any such thing. We never hear one word about Crait until BOOM it's suddenly there visible outside the window and huge.

Well, it was a secret base that was the lynchpin of their secret plan. No sense talking about the planet that no one but Leia and Holdo knows is worth going to, and no sense for anyone else commenting on the specific system they're in if it's just some deserted waypoint for them to get their bearings.

The only question I can think of is, if they were going to Crait from the beginning, why not go all the way there directly instead of making the approach at sublight? I think ESB does give the answer, with the thing about "surprise" versus "dropping out of hyperspace too close." Dropping out at the outskirts gives them a chance to approach more stealthily and make sure no one else is around.

 

[Prax]

Poe just needed a little hope...
Rebellions are built on hope!

I'll say it again. If they had simply done 2 jumps, the First Order never would have found them, and there'd be no plot.

Just like if Holdo had not been antagonistic towards Poe, there'd have been no subplot.

 

[fireproof78]

Poe just needed a little hope...
Rebellions are built on hope!

I'll say it again. If they had simply done 2 jumps, the First Order never would have found them, and there'd be no plot.

Just like if Holdo had not been antagonistic towards Poe, there'd have been no subplot.

Didn't have the fuel.

She didn't trust Poe because of his actions.

 

[Prax]

Well, if they only made one jump, then they shouldn't be surprised that they were quickly found.

And I guess for Holdo, I would say "she should have" since his disobedience saved them all, including her, he also just saved the galaxy that morning(SK Base), and was Leia's most trusted officer, and her successor. And for Poe, he should've just asked Finn what the plan was. Why? Because Leia just told the recently(yesterday) reformed stormtrooper the plan prior to getting blown up, with no issues.

 

[fireproof78]

Well, if they only made one jump, then they shouldn't be surprised that they were quickly found.

And I guess for Holdo, I would say "she should have" since his disobedience saved them all, including her, he also just saved the galaxy that morning(SK Base), and was Leia's most trusted officer, and her successor. And for Poe, he should've just asked Finn what the plan was. Why? Because Leia just told the recently(yesterday) reformed stormtrooper the plan prior to getting blown up, with no issues.

Yes, Leia probably should have. She didn't and Holdo had no reason to trust Poe, who then sent Finn and Rose out on an unauthorized mission.

This is highly dangerous, reckless, behaviors from an officer and Holdo did not regard it as "heroic" but dangerous. Because, it is dangerous behavior.

 

[Tosk]

The only question I can think of is, if they were going to Crait from the beginning, why not go all the way there directly instead of making the approach at sublight? I think ESB does give the answer, with the thing about "surprise" versus "dropping out of hyperspace too close." Dropping out at the outskirts gives them a chance to approach more stealthily and make sure no one else is around.

But where were they going before they got tracked? The jumped to within 18 hours of Crait with only enough fuel for one more jump (All their ships were running out of fuel at the same time?) and then they got tracked and caught...so what were they going to do next if not tracked? Just sit around? (Why?) Jump again? (Why not go wherever you're going in one jump? If it's to disguise your trail, why didn't they do their second jump right away?) Travel at sublight for 18 hours? (To where and why?)

 

[David cgc]

But where were they going before they got tracked? The jumped to within 18 hours of Crait with only enough fuel for one more jump (All their ships were running out of fuel at the same time?) and then they got tracked and caught...so what were they going to do next if not tracked? Just sit around? (Why?) Jump again? (Why not go wherever you're going in one jump? If it's to disguise your trail, why didn't they do their second jump right away?) Travel at sublight for 18 hours? (To where and why?)

Apparently, they were going to Crait. Defensible, unknown, ready-made base, the perfect spot to get their bearings and catch their breath. This doesn't have to be complicated. They were obviously going somewhere since, as you say, they didn't have enough fuel to bop around space indefinitely as some kind of rag-tag fugitive fleet fleeing from tyranny, and so they were probably going to the place they went to, Crait.

 

[Tosk]

Apparently, they were going to Crait. Defensible, unknown, ready-made base, the perfect spot to get their bearings and catch their breath. This doesn't have to be complicated. They were obviously going somewhere since, as you say, they didn't have enough fuel to bop around space indefinitely as some kind of rag-tag fugitive fleet fleeing from tyranny, and so they were probably going to the place they went to, Crait.

Then why did they stop 18 hours of sublight travel short of it? And how would they refuel once they got there?

 

[Reverend]

The only reason they ran out of fuel is because they were forced to spend those 18 hours with their foot on the accelerator the whole time. Had things gone according to plan they would have probably spent a few days coasting to the planet nice and quiet like, and made orbit with fuel to spare.

As for why they jumped in so far out: the jump co-ordinates were an old prearranged rally point used by the Alliance, so that's what all the ships had stored in their navicomputers. Having a small hide-out close to a secret rally point is smart. It gives cells a place to rest and resupply after an op while they wait for any Imperial heat to die down.

Having the jump point be right on top of said secret base would be monumentally unwise, since it would mean if either location is compromised then they'd both be compromised. An eventuality made all the more likely if all that clandestine activity happening in one place. After all, not all ships using the rally point would necessarily be bound for Crait.

 

[DigificWriter]

And yet again we have people missing the point of Holdo's actions.

Both she and Leia liked Poe and felt he had the ability to be a key leader within the Resistence; however, they both also recognized that he had some hot-shot tendencies that needed to be tempered, tendencies that were on full display during the evacuation of D'Qar, and devised what they believed to be a strategy that could temper those tendencies and serve as a non-combat crucible for forging him into the leader they knew he could be.

What they didn't account for - and couldn't account for - was Poe provoking Hux into chasing them and Leia being taken out of commission.

People keep asking why Holdo didn't just tell Poe what was going on, and yet they keep missing the fact that the answer to that is conveyed in the film itself: he needed to learn some hard lessons about trust and leadership, lessons that he couldn't learn if he knew what his leaders were planning.

The "race to Crait" - or at least the parts of it that were under the Resistance's control - was a test in the same way that Luke's journey into the cave on Degobah was, and, like Luke, Poe failed it.

 

[Tosk]

and made orbit with fuel to spare.

And then what? They'd be at an old unused base with presumably no way to refuel. Or if there were fuel stores at the base, why didn't they jump to it when all the shit started and refuel?

The only reason they ran out of fuel is because they were forced to spend those 18 hours with their foot on the accelerator the whole time.

That doesn't make much sense in space. But then, we also see ships run our of fuel and then suddenly fall back and start to list, which also doesn't make any sense. Such is sci-fi.

Had things gone according to plan they would have probably spent a few days coasting to the planet nice and quiet like

It doesn't sound to me like that was their plan. Before the baddies suddenly and unexpectedly catch up, we get this dialogue. "We need to find a new base." "One with enough power to get a distress signal to our allies scattered in the Outer Rim."

Sounds to me like they jumped to wherever they felt like and then were just gonna figure something out. Until they got caught sitting and decided to head for the old Rebel base that was luckily extremely close by.