Spoilers Star Wars: The Last Jedi - Grading & Discussion
- Thread starter Commander Richard
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They're being addressed and refuted because they're bullshit, made (as I said before) by whiny fans that wanted the EU/Legends to be canon when it most obviously wasn't anything but a series of licensed tie-in novels.
At least Kennedy and Lucasfilm have sense compared to DC and Warners, who just fired Zack Snyder despite all of his Snyderverse movies (that includes Wonder Woman) making similar amounts of money at the box office.
I'm sorry, but I'm a liberal (pragmatic progressive) who happens to agree with said people concerned about said ethics in said reporting; Sarkesian & company are full of it, and if she and others like her are so concerned about video-games, they need to make said games themselves, not just hector the industry (be the change that you want to see, as the saying goes.)
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Probably about 90% of Star Wars stories have some version of things things, so it really shouldn't come as a surprise that the new movies did.
I see a lot of people who don't like the movie complaining about all of these myteries were set up in TFA, but thinking back most of them really weren't that big of a part of the movie. Snoke was barely even in TFA, and I don't remember anybody in the movie ever bringing up anything about his origins or any of that. That all was brought up by the fans after the fact, and blown way out of proportion. The only actual mystery set up in TFA was Rey's parentage, and that was covered in TLJ.
Uhhh, excellent prequel trilogy? I'm assuming that's sarcasm, right?
Not true, the books cover quite a bit of the stuff with the FO and the NR. I know people keep complaining about leaving all of that for books, but I still think it was a really smart way to go about dealing with the backstory. The thing to keep in mind is that these movies aren't just made for fans, they're made for a general audience too, and the vast, vast majority of those people don't give a shit about the minutia the way we fans do. They aren't going to want the movie to go into every detail about who exactly Snoke is or how the FO came to power, all they want is enough information to follow the story being told, and the movies give us exactly that. Those of us who want to know more have the books, comics, and games to give us the extra details that don't impact the immediate story being told. This is a great way to not bog the movies down in unnecessary exposition, but still give those of us who want those details a way to find them.
So here's an idea, if you really want more information on the First Order, and Snoke and all of that, then just read the damn books and comics, or just go spend a little while looking around on Wookiepedia.
I just looked and while there's still not much on who Snoke is, and it lays out the origins of the FO in some pretty extensive detail.
Following another year of bloody conflict, the fractured Empire made its last stand over the sandy wastes of Jakku against the New Republic, resulting in many casualties on both sides. Defeated and facing severe internal unrest, the Empire was forced to sign the Galactic Concordance, severely limiting its ability to wage war and ushering in its transformation into a mere rump state.[5]
OriginsEdit
"It's time to start over. That is our first order. To begin again. And to get it right, this time."
―Rae Sloane to Brendol Hux[src]
Following the Battle of Jakku, Grand Vizier Mas Amedda and the New Republic Chancellor Mon Mothma signed the Galactic Concordance, which dissolved the Empire.[14] In response, many Imperial nobles, technologists,[15] warlords,[5] and officers fled into the Unknown Regions in an effort to escape the prying eyes of the New Republic. They used information derived from Grand Admiral Thrawn[14] who hailed from the Chiss Ascendancy,[16] and the survey teams and droids that the late Emperor Sheev Palpatine had sent to explore the Unknown Regions. At the request of the dying Counselor to the Empire Gallius Rax, Grand Admiral Rae Sloane, and Commandant Brendol Hux rendezvoused with the Super Star Destroyer Eclipse. Sloane saw an opportunity to rebuild the Empire.[14]
There, isolated from the galaxy, these Imperial hardliners formed the First Order, which was influenced by the principles of the fallen government.[5] With the New Republic now the dominant force in the galaxy, it continuously stressed upholding the values of democracy throughout the stars. In spite of such, however, the New Republic was not without its critics, many of them disgruntled sympathizers of the Old Imperial ways, some of whom were a part of the political structure. Once disagreements between the loyalists and Imperial sympathizers became too severe, the latter group seceded, whereupon they established the First Order along with the former elements of the Imperial military that still inhabited the Unknown Regions. While some in the Galactic Senate applauded the notion, others realized that without New Republic supervision, the Order would return to the draconian ways of its predecessor.[8] Because it descended from the Empire in ideology, the First Order, upon being formed within the Unknown Regions alongside various former Imperial officers, technologists, nobles, and other pro-Imperial supporters, intended to reclaim their legacy.[6]
Supreme Leader Snoke commanded the First Order from the shadows.
With many of the Emperor's servants carrying some of the regime's greatest military secrets to the Unknown Regions, the First Order began a massive militarization effort to produce a technologically superior military to the former Galactic Empire, keenly aware that it lacked the superior numbers of the former state. Numerous shipyards, bases, and research facilities were built on newly explored star systems and colonized worlds as the Order slowly expanded and plotted its eventual return to the galaxy at large. Growing in size and strength, the First Order came under the command of Supreme Leader Snoke, a powerful dark-side user served by his apprentice, Kylo Ren. With Snoke's successful manipulation of Kylo Ren to the dark side of the Force, his apprentice and the Knights of Ren destroyed Luke Skywalker's attempt to restart the Jedi Order, with subsequent purges and hunting down those with Force affinity, much like the previous Inquisitorius of the Old Empire.[5]
Subverting the New RepublicEdit
"The First Order is a remnant born of a war thirty years gone. Yes, they persist, yes, they continue, but by all accounts they do so barely. They are, at best, an ill-organized, poorly equipped, and badly funded group of loyalists who use propaganda and fear to inflate their strength and their importance."
―Major Lonno Deso of the Republic Navy[src]
In the years leading up to the destruction of the Hosnian system, the First Order quietly bided its time preparing for its eventual war with the New Republic. To generate funding to refit and rearm the former Imperial fleet, the First Order used a militia group called the Amaxine warriors as proxies to fund the Nikto crime lord Rinnrivin Di's cartel. Seven years prior to the "Napkin Bombing" at the New Republic senatorial complex on Hosnian Prime, the First Order used the Amaxines to inject billions of Credits as start-up capital into Rinnrivin's cartel, turning the hitherto minor cartel into a major crime syndicate. Establishing a mutual relationship with the Amaxines, Rinnrivin embarked on lucrative smuggling and gambling operations with the proceeds being channeled through shadowy corporations and Centrist sources back to the First Order, which used the money to rebuild its fleet.[7]
In addition, the First Order also recruited several Centrist senators like Lady Carise Sindian as clandestine agents who worked to subvert the New Republic from within. Many Centrists, an informal faction in the New Republic's Galactic Senate who favored a stronger central government and military, admired the Old Empire's leaders and practices. Another proxy of the First Order was Arliz Hadrassian, a former TIE fighter pilot who had become the leader of the Amaxine warriors. While Hadrassian saw the Amaxines as the vanguard of the First Order, Lady Carise regarded her as too volatile to manage. Hadrassian in return was impatient with the Centrists for refusing to secede from the Republic.[7]
The First Order's operations were almost exposed when Rinnrivin Di's criminal activities began to exact a devastating toll on the planet Ryloth's offworld trade. In response, the New Republic senators Leia Organa and Ransolm Casterfo embarked on an investigation which uncovered Rinnrivin's links to the Amaxine Warriors. However, the two senators failed to discover the First Order's linkages to the Amaxines and Rinnrivin's cartel. In an attempt to sow chaos, Arliz Hadrassian bombed the New Republic's senatorial complex. This set in motion a chain of events that led to the death of Rinnrivin and the destruction of most of the Amaxine warriors' forces on the planet Sibensko. Hadrassian killed herself after assassinating the New Republic senator Tai-Lin Garr. While most New Republic senators and media believed that the demise of Rinnrivin's cartel and the Amaxines eliminated all threats to the Republic, Leia disagreed and established the Resistance in response to the Republic's complacency.[7]
Following the assassination of Tai-Lin Garr, Lady Carise and her Centrist counterparts began preparing a motion to secede from the New Republic in order to join and support the First Order.[7]
Preparing for warEdit
Starkiller Base, the First Order's headquarters during their military mobilization
For the three decades after Endor, the First Order largely escaped galactic attention, with many in the New Republic Senate believing that it posed no real threat to the galaxy at large. Echoing these sentiments, Chancellor Lanever Villecham argued there was no need for concern as long as the First Order adhered to the dictates of the Galactic Concordance. Despite this, the Order blatantly defied the accords by ushering in the mass mobilization of superior stormtrooper forces, along with violating Republic bans on the sale of weaponry to the First Order and its rules governing capital ships. Testing the resolve of the New Republic, small skirmishes occasionally erupted between the First Order and Republic, all while the Starkiller operation sought a suitable planet for implementation.[5]
With the First Order's growing threat and rapid mobilization for war, prominent members of the Republic voiced concern over this successor state, with the most vocal being Leia Organa. Scoffed at by the Senate at large for being an alarmist and warmonger, Organa used her influence as a prominent member of the former Alliance to recruit many former military officers left forgotten by the Military Disarmament Act passed by the Galactic Senate. Funded by like-minded senators who shared Organa's fears about the First Order, the Resistance came to serve as the opposing force and check to the Order's growing power, sparking the Cold war.[5]
Despite this, members of the Republic Senate were mired in corruption and bureaucracy, with senators such as Erudo Ro-Kiintor colluding with the First Order for promises of wealth and power, with large sums of credits being discretely transferred to him through the Corporate Sector Authority. As a result, the Resistance was forced to work on its own until it could obtain irrefutable evidence of First Order violations of the peace that could be presented to Republic Command. During Operation: Sabre Strike, the Resistance pilot Poe Dameron and General Organa discovered that Senator Erudo had been colluding with the First Order and that he had valuable information about Lor San Tekka, whom Organa believed could lead them to her brother, Luke Skywalker.[3]
I understand that novels and comics are good for filling in these voids, but I still think it doesnt give them a pass on completely ignoring the topic on screen. The films should standalone, not require a novel or two of backstory.
Personally, I haven't found it easy to get through any of the new Star Wars novels (haven't explored the old either). So I don't see why I should be forced into pushing my way through them to understand a fairly important part of a movie.
I agree
In point of fact I don't think the OT even mentioned the Sith by name!Somehow, the OT got away without explaining the Sith, the rise of the Empire, or even what the Senate was.
Yet, the ST sucks because it doesn't explain every single little detail?
Indeed, although the term dates back to the Sith Knights from the earlier drafts, I think the only the Sith were even inferred was though licensed media (picturebooks and the like) which labelled Vader as "The Dark Lord of the Sith".
Indeed, if you go by the movies all on their own, it wouldn't be unreasonable that Vader is still considered as much a Jedi as Obi-Wan, ("A young Jedi named 'Darth Vader'...", "Your sad devotion to their ancient religion..." et.) though one that had betrayed his own order. A Ronin to Kenobi's Samurai, if you will.
We were also never told what the hell the Clone Wars were about, nor the identity of Luke & Leia's mother! That last one I find interesting since prior to the prequels, several EU stories treated this as some big important mystery instead of what it really was: just a blank that George hadn't filled in because it didn't matter.
Back when this happened I remember a lot of similar discussions and the conclusion I came to is that there really ought to be some in-universe explanation as to why this isn't done more often since it's clearly effective. I mean if it's a simple mass-to-energy conversion than an old, worthless junker of a freighter loaded worthless but very dense ore slag with only a barely functioning hyperdrive could be used to take out Star Destroyers.
If I had to come up with a reason why this isn't the case, it would probably have to be along the lines that doing so causes a local disruption or anomaly in hyperspace that fucks with local lightspeed navigation. Even a small one could strand all ships within system to sublight speeds and a bad one too close to a major hyperlane could risk permanently cutting off and isolating whole swaths of the galaxy. So it's not a case of infeasible so much as "almost always a terrible idea." The hyperspace equivalent of a dirty-bomb.
Of course none of this needed to be explained in either TLJ or TCW, because it's something everyone present already knows. It'd be like someone yelling about the properties and effects of a fission warhead detonation during a nuclear attack.
Side note: I kind of really wish *this* is where the "Great Hyperspace War" from the EU got it's name rather than the rather disappointing and uneven story of "that time the Sith Empire showed up out of nowhere and were summarily genocided by the Jedi." I mean imaging an ancient war where half the galaxy was devastated because some faction or another started using hyperspace weapons as a first resort. An interesting twist might be that this is the reason the "Unknown Regions" are so difficult to get into and seems to contain a number of ancient Jedi sites. It would basically be a no-man's land made up of half of what used to be the Old Republic.
I think a lot of people seem to get a little hung up in the term "ghosts" as so far as I can tell, it's a term only ever used by fans and I'm assuming some old RPG sourcebooks (that's where a surprising amount of terminology originates.) IIRC in the scripts they're only ever described as "shimmering images/figures"
The term is also a bit of a misnomer in that they're not really the souls of dead people that have come back from some afterlife: they're still very much alive people that shed their physical forms to achieve oneness with the cosmic force that binds the universe together. In a very real way they *are* the force made manifest while also still being themselves.
I think part of the misconception about their ability to interact with the material plane stems from Obi-Wan's line: "If you choose to face Vader you must do it alone. I cannot interfere."
I don't think this is meant to be taken as he is literally incapable of interfering so much as he *really* should not and as such *won't* do it. It's akin to a rational person saying "I can't smash this random bystander's face in with a house brick." It's not an objective statement on reality so much as a statement of personal intent.
From an objective standpoint of *course* they can interact. Ignoring for a second the repeated examples both major and minor: as stated above, in a very real sense they *are* the force and the force being capable of influencing the material world is the very foundation on which the concept of Jedi abilities are founded.
But none of that is important to the movie, it's all just background that has nothing really to do with what's actually happening on screen.
All we need to know is that the First Order is the new Empire and that Snoke is their Supreme Leader and he turned Ben Solo into Kylo Ren and that is exactly what the movies tell us. Everything beyond that is just extra details that aren't really necessary to understand the current story unfolding onscreen.
If you want video games to be considered an art form, you’re going to have to accept criticsism are part and parcel of that. And by ‘accept’ I mean ‘don’t dox, harass, pry into people’s sex lives, and send bomb threats.’ At least.
I’m also having a laugh because ‘be the change you want to see’ is exactly what Kylo tried to pitch to Rey.
Kylo: If you don’t like the way the universe is Rey, it really is best that you become an all powerful dictator by my side.
Rey: There’s like, a million better options man. Just because I can tell my roof is leaking, doesn’t mean my best options are ‘silently put up with it’ or ‘personally build a new house with my bare hands’. Plus, this whole little movement you’ve got going here was started on the basis of, you know...propagating genocide and the forces of pure evil. So I really don’t think it’s possible for its possible for this little shit show to enact a ‘fresh start’ with that being it’s founding ideologies. Sane and decent people certainly won’t be willing to associate with it-
Kylo: *tries to cut her in half with a sword*
Actually, whilst we’re on the subject of dealing with critics, knock it off the with constant ‘they’re only complaining because they cling to the EU.’ It’s presumptuous, to put it mildly. Most of them haven’t even mentioned the EU.Rey: There’s like, a million better options man. Just because I can tell my roof is leaking, doesn’t mean my best options are ‘silently put up with it’ or ‘personally build a new house with my bare hands’. Plus, this whole little movement you’ve got going here was started on the basis of, you know...propagating genocide and the forces of pure evil. So I really don’t think it’s possible for its possible for this little shit show to enact a ‘fresh start’ with that being it’s founding ideologies. Sane and decent people certainly won’t be willing to associate with it-
Kylo: *tries to cut her in half with a sword*
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Even when I was fully immersed with TPM (I read as much as I possibly could before the film) I didn't enjoy it. So, it's a duel edged sword.
Although it wasn't as bad as The Force Awakens, it was still pretty underwhelming. The characters they have introduced for this new trilogy are overacted and just not all that interesting, and the old characters they are using are shells of their former selves. They have also rushed many aspects of the story. It is not as well planned, well put together, or well executed as previous films. This is no doubt the weakest of the three trilogies. I honestly think these movies would have been far better if Lucas was in charge of creating them (despite his faults in creating the prequels).
The one thing I did like was the main light saber battle. That was a cool scene that took me by surprise. Still doesn't make up for much though...
"F"
The one thing I did like was the main light saber battle. That was a cool scene that took me by surprise. Still doesn't make up for much though...
"F"
http://toofab.com/2018/01/03/anders...campaign=zergnet_2394172&adid=zergnet-main-lp
Anderson Cooper walked out on The Last Jedi.
Anderson Cooper walked out on The Last Jedi.
He walked out because he was distracted by work and wanted to give the film the proper attention that he believes it deserves. He told Stephen Colbert that he's going to go back and watch it again.
It's called a joke. It makes contextual sense when you watch the interview.
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BOTH of you @Mage and @Ensign Ricky , need to go back to your corners and stop with the picking at each other.
More than any Star Wars film of the OT or PT, this film generated two strong camps from the start: those who thought the film was terrible with the 1st (and only) viewing, and like you, others who see the flaws the more TLJ is carefully analyzed. Even The Phantom Menace, with its flowing river of flaws, the Jar-Jar minstrel show, and just about everything being about flashing lightsabers (or the promise of seeing it), did not inspire such rapid condemnation.
Yes, despite Leia never displaying or mentioning any developed, on screen Force ability other than receiving Luke's call for rescue in ESB (and no training), she can survive the vacuum of space, pull herself back to the ship with no lingering effects. Any talent or inherent ability must be shaped (trained), otherwise, Luke would have lasted all of 2 seconds if he tried facing Vader with the training and knowledge he had at the beginning of ESB. It would have been sensible character development (not be found in this sequel series) to have Leia either show or refer to some training she had in between trilogies, so there would be the chance to build audience expectation of what level of power she possesses, and used at the right time--even in that "space walk" scene, but that was a lost (and significant) opportunity.
Ah yes, the tripped-up, childish Public Service Announcement about greed, arms dealing, animal abuse, etc. filtered through the mouth of a pointless character (Rose), when a more effective message would have come from Finn--a person who (having worked for both sides of the larger galactic ideologues) would be able to effectively, believably convey why the casino culture was wrong or had to be destroyed as part of the greater conflict. Nope, that was not going to happen because Johnson, Kathleen Kennedy, et al., had to make it all about this pointless character who--ultimately--was there to keep Finn from Rey.
They wanted to rip Sidious, but lacked the skill to actually create a mastermind emerging from behind the scenes a Palpatine was in ESB to ROTJ.
From the tone of responses and analysis, I doubt future reactions will be one of mirth, but the same kind of disgust or flat out rejection seen at this time.
I thought the movies did that fine without any of the extra background you are looking for.
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