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Spoilers Star Wars: The Last Jedi - Grading & Discussion

Grade the movie.


  • Total voters
    290
Dude, it is explained. Blindingly clearly.

The Empire were the Space Nazis.

The FO are Space neo-Nazi’s.

Besides all the, err...’subtle’ hints in everything they do, say, and wear, their place in the universe is literally spelled out in the opening crawl of TFA.



And as TLJ ended with the incompetent, whiny, entitled, gropey overly-privileged man-children running the asylum, theyre probably going to ‘evolve’ to the next logical step: People Concerned About Ethics In Video Game Journalis- *gets pulled offstage by shepherds crook*
How is it obviously explained? All the opening crawl says in Episode 7 is that the First Order rose out of the ashes of the empire. Thats about as much detail we get about them. Why do they take children? Why are they so powerful? Nobody knows because they havent spent any time or effort developing it. Right now the only reason they are the bad guys is because movie said so.
 
1, The ashes of a fire are the remnants. And when a pheonix ‘rises from the ashes’, it’s a reborn version of the same darn bird. Usually a new, baby version. That’s where the turn of phrase comes from.

2. They steal children so they can indoctrinate child soldiers. Finn explains that. Finn is that.

3. The FO is powerful because the people that should have intervened in all their bullshit, instead ignored Leia’s warnings, wrote the FO off as a serious threat, and basically left the whole thing to Leia’s small guerrilla forces in spite of having a massive-ass military fleet.

Hell, TLJ revealed they apparently weren’t even personally supplying her with ships and weapons. They were either just giving Leia the funds and she fell back on third party weapons dealers through desperation and/or laziness...or the Republic themselves directly funded the people that armed their eventual destroyers.

All this ‘not give a fucks’ resulted in the FO being able to amass the manpower and resources to mount a one-off devastating sneak attack on the major super power, that completely upended the running of the known world.

Stop me when this starts sounding familiar.

And of course, with Leia’s Resistance was being cut off from the now devestated Republic, the FO’s only organised opposition are limited to the resources they had on hand. Something that could be (and no doubt will be) worked around in the long run, but TLJ was only set minutes after the final frame of TFA.

Again, that’s in the opening crawl. In the bits that relate to Leia. Hux also gloats about it in his totally-not-Nuremberg speech. And the stuff we...actually see happen during the movie.
 
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How is it obviously explained? All the opening crawl says in Episode 7 is that the First Order rose out of the ashes of the empire. Thats about as much detail we get about them. Why do they take children? Why are they so powerful? Nobody knows because they havent spent any time or effort developing it. Right now the only reason they are the bad guys is because movie said so.

Just more rotten mortar in the foundation of this Trilogy. The Empire was defeated and the Sith destroyed, but Disney knew only one thing: They wanted The Empire and The Sith; They paid four billion for them. So, what to do? change the names to protect the innocent. Now they're The First Order and The Knights Of Ren. Easy Peasy and you still have your Stormtroopers, TIE Fighters, Star Destroyers, AT-ATs, a red saber swinging baddie in black and because you can never have too many, another Planet Killer.

Only one teeny tiny problem. Disney relied on Micheal Arndt, Lawrence Kazden, JJ Abrams and a committee of God knows how many others, to fill in the blanks. A challenge they obviously did not feel up to as they just raised more questions and spent most of their time creating such an overabundance of mysterious past history that one starts to feel like they're watching some fourth Trilogy instead of the third.

Basically, JJ figured that he would have his fun and let the next guy figure all that stuff out. You know, Like Rey's parents, where Snoke came from where he was going, The Knights Of Ren, Why Luke was standing there in his most regal of Jedi Robes with a pained look on his face as if his best friend had just died.

Now the joke will be on JJ, when he goes to the toy box and sees what Rian did with all his toys. If I didn't know better, and I don't so who knows, I would think these guys were out to get each other but this is what passes for synergy over in the Magic Kingdom.
 
Now the joke will be on JJ, when he goes to the toy box and sees what Rian did with all his toys. If I didn't know better, and I don't so who knows, I would think these guys were out to get each other but this is what passes for synergy over in the Magic Kingdom.

Abrams produced TLJ, and gave feedback on the script. I think he might already be familiar with it.

And if Kennedy and Abrams producing and overseeing the entire new trilogy doesn’t resemble ‘synergy’, I sincerely wonder what you’d think of the creative process behind the OT.

Of course, now I’ve said that, the next movie is gonna retcon Rose into Finn’s long lost twin sister. Just to fuck with me.
 
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This prompted a question. There's StormPilot and Reylo, but far as I know no big push for a Rey/Finn 'ship. Is there a Rinn? Or Fey? group (s) out there pushing for this romance?

There were supporters, many either writing fanfic, or producing artwork showing the two together, but unlike the completely self-generated fantasies of Rey/Poe or Rey/Ren, the film (TFA) laid out the source of the Finn/Rey shipping.

But that's just a pass coming from Finn. As far as we know, it's one-sided. It's hardly an expression of how they feel about 'each other'.

It did not seem one-sided, since Rey appeared more emotionally invested than one would expect from a newfound pal.
 
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Abrams produced TLJ, and gave feedback on the script. I think he might already be familiar with it.

Absolutely one hundred and one percent correct.

Of course that was all back when he still thought Colin Trevorrow was going to get stuck with the check.
 
Because no one else would possibly step up to do a Star Wars movie if he turned it down. Which is why he was forced so grudgingly to take on this absolute burden of a-bwahahahaha!

Yeah.

He was apparently always attached to produce that one too.
 
It would have been nice if JJ Abrams explained this in the TFA. The novel does a slightly better job. The New Republic was essentially the U.N. It was a bureaucratic mess. Each member world had an equal vote. Part of the NR body wanted war with the FO, while another part believed they could find a peaceful solution and another felt they weren't a threat at all. Apparently some of the NR member worlds (who were loyal to the Empire in the past) were secretly funding the FO, similar to how the NR was secretly funding the Resistance. Nobody could get any of the sides to reconcile. Leia was no longer trusted after it was leaked she was Darth Vader's daughter. A 30 second scene in TFA could have cleared all of this up...
 
The Original Trilogy didn't say much about how the Empire rose, beyond a line or two about a war in which the Republic and Jedi were replaced. Then came the Prequel Trilogy, which attempted to explain it in great depth. And it sucked.
 
The Original Trilogy didn't say much about how the Empire rose, beyond a line or two about a war in which the Republic and Jedi were replaced. Then came the Prequel Trilogy, which attempted to explain it in great depth. And it sucked.

Yes but then George Lucas gave us the excellent Prequel Trilogy, which I think explained how things got the way they were very thoroughly. By starting right off with Episode VII, this trilogy doesn't have that luxury.

See people? You don't have to criticize and comment on every person's negative opinion about Star Wars. Just respectfully disregard them and try to move on.
 
Just more rotten mortar in the foundation of this Trilogy. The Empire was defeated and the Sith destroyed, but Disney knew only one thing: They wanted The Empire and The Sith; They paid four billion for them. So, what to do? change the names to protect the innocent. Now they're The First Order and The Knights Of Ren. Easy Peasy and you still have your Stormtroopers, TIE Fighters, Star Destroyers, AT-ATs, a red saber swinging baddie in black and because you can never have too many, another Planet Killer.

Only one teeny tiny problem. Disney relied on Micheal Arndt, Lawrence Kazden, JJ Abrams and a committee of God knows how many others, to fill in the blanks. A challenge they obviously did not feel up to as they just raised more questions and spent most of their time creating such an overabundance of mysterious past history that one starts to feel like they're watching some fourth Trilogy instead of the third.

Basically, JJ figured that he would have his fun and let the next guy figure all that stuff out. You know, Like Rey's parents, where Snoke came from where he was going, The Knights Of Ren, Why Luke was standing there in his most regal of Jedi Robes with a pained look on his face as if his best friend had just died.

Now the joke will be on JJ, when he goes to the toy box and sees what Rian did with all his toys. If I didn't know better, and I don't so who knows, I would think these guys were out to get each other but this is what passes for synergy over in the Magic Kingdom.

This is a great way of putting it! This whole trilogy feels messy and unplanned. It's not like the original trilogy where there wasnt a bunch of stuff being built up mysteriously for the next two episodes. They standalone very well. The prequels werent trying to answer some crazy secret, just tell a story we already know in more detail.

But the one thing the Force Awakens did was create a bunch of mystery without having any actual idea of what to do with it. And Episode 8 was suppose to be some answers. But those answers were pointless or nonexistant for many things. And I get there is an episode 9 - but plot wise the last film felt conclusive when it shouldnt have.

All around a mess for me. I'll stick around but let the sequel trilogy atest to how far sitting down and actually planning out your stories can take you.
 
1, The ashes of a fire are the remnants. And when a pheonix ‘rises from the ashes’, it’s a reborn version of the same darn bird. Usually a new, baby version. That’s where the turn of phrase comes from.

2. They steal children so they can indoctrinate child soldiers. Finn explains that. Finn is that.

3. The FO is powerful because the people that should have intervened in all their bullshit, instead ignored Leia’s warnings, wrote the FO off as a serious threat, and basically left the whole thing to Leia’s small guerrilla forces in spite of having a massive-ass military fleet.

Hell, TLJ revealed they apparently weren’t even personally supplying her with ships and weapons. They were either just giving Leia the funds and she fell back on third party weapons dealers through desperation and/or laziness...or the Republic themselves directly funded the people that armed their eventual destroyers.

All this ‘not give a fucks’ resulted in the FO being able to amass the manpower and resources to mount a one-off devastating sneak attack on the major super power, that completely upended the running of the known world.

Stop me when this starts sounding familiar.

And of course, with Leia’s Resistance was being cut off from the now devestated Republic, the FO’s only organised opposition are limited to the resources they had on hand. Something that could be (and no doubt will be) worked around in the long run, but TLJ was only set minutes after the final frame of TFA.

Again, that’s in the opening crawl. In the bits that relate to Leia. Hux also gloats about it in his totally-not-Nuremberg speech. And the stuff we...actually see happen during the movie.
All of that is fine and all but its 90% implied and assumed by fans, not actually told. You shouldn't have your fans be filling in your plot holes, in my opinion.
 
Force ghost Yoda zapping the tree was one of the things in TLJ that didn't bother me. If you're the superstitious type, real world ghosts interact with the physical world today without having been 900yo Jedi masters. Yoda's had 30 years to practice and it was only 30 years before that, Qui-Gon discovered how to retain one's consciousness in the Force, ever after death, so it's not surprising that we're seeing an apparition only doing these thing now.

I do think there should be some limits set on what a force ghost is able to do. After all, what's preventing Yoda/Obiwan from appearing in an FO Star Destroyer's engine room, zapping the hyperdrive and causing the ship to explode? Maybe a force ghost can only interact with the physical world in the presence of living force sensitive person who is willing to allow said action... I don't know...
 
Just more rotten mortar in the foundation of this Trilogy. The Empire was defeated and the Sith destroyed, but Disney knew only one thing: They wanted The Empire and The Sith; They paid four billion for them. So, what to do? change the names to protect the innocent. Now they're The First Order and The Knights Of Ren. Easy Peasy and you still have your Stormtroopers, TIE Fighters, Star Destroyers, AT-ATs, a red saber swinging baddie in black and because you can never have too many, another Planet Killer.
Probably about 90% of Star Wars stories have some version of things things, so it really shouldn't come as a surprise that the new movies did.
Only one teeny tiny problem. Disney relied on Micheal Arndt, Lawrence Kazden, JJ Abrams and a committee of God knows how many others, to fill in the blanks. A challenge they obviously did not feel up to as they just raised more questions and spent most of their time creating such an overabundance of mysterious past history that one starts to feel like they're watching some fourth Trilogy instead of the third.

Basically, JJ figured that he would have his fun and let the next guy figure all that stuff out. You know, Like Rey's parents, where Snoke came from where he was going, The Knights Of Ren, Why Luke was standing there in his most regal of Jedi Robes with a pained look on his face as if his best friend had just died.

Now the joke will be on JJ, when he goes to the toy box and sees what Rian did with all his toys. If I didn't know better, and I don't so who knows, I would think these guys were out to get each other but this is what passes for synergy over in the Magic Kingdom.
I see a lot of people who don't like the movie complaining about all of these myteries were set up in TFA, but thinking back most of them really weren't that big of a part of the movie. Snoke was barely even in TFA, and I don't remember anybody in the movie ever bringing up anything about his origins or any of that. That all was brought up by the fans after the fact, and blown way out of proportion. The only actual mystery set up in TFA was Rey's parentage, and that was covered in TLJ.

Yes but then George Lucas gave us the excellent Prequel Trilogy, which I think explained how things got the way they were very thoroughly. By starting right off with Episode VII, this trilogy doesn't have that luxury.

See people? You don't have to criticize and comment on every person's negative opinion about Star Wars. Just respectfully disregard them and try to move on.
Uhhh, excellent prequel trilogy? I'm assuming that's sarcasm, right?

All of that is fine and all but its 90% implied and assumed by fans, not actually told. You shouldn't have your fans be filling in your plot holes, in my opinion.
Not true, the books cover quite a bit of the stuff with the FO and the NR. I know people keep complaining about leaving all of that for books, but I still think it was a really smart way to go about dealing with the backstory. The thing to keep in mind is that these movies aren't just made for fans, they're made for a general audience too, and the vast, vast majority of those people don't give a shit about the minutia the way we fans do. They aren't going to want the movie to go into every detail about who exactly Snoke is or how the FO came to power, all they want is enough information to follow the story being told, and the movies give us exactly that. Those of us who want to know more have the books, comics, and games to give us the extra details that don't impact the immediate story being told. This is a great way to not bog the movies down in unnecessary exposition, but still give those of us who want those details a way to find them.
So here's an idea, if you really want more information on the First Order, and Snoke and all of that, then just read the damn books and comics, or just go spend a little while looking around on Wookiepedia.
I just looked and while there's still not much on who Snoke is, and it lays out the origins of the FO in some pretty extensive detail.
Following another year of bloody conflict, the fractured Empire made its last stand over the sandy wastes of Jakku against the New Republic, resulting in many casualties on both sides. Defeated and facing severe internal unrest, the Empire was forced to sign the Galactic Concordance, severely limiting its ability to wage war and ushering in its transformation into a mere rump state.[5]

OriginsEdit
"It's time to start over. That is our first order. To begin again. And to get it right, this time."
Rae Sloane to Brendol Hux[src]
Following the Battle of Jakku, Grand Vizier Mas Amedda and the New Republic Chancellor Mon Mothma signed the Galactic Concordance, which dissolved the Empire.[14] In response, many Imperial nobles, technologists,[15] warlords,[5] and officers fled into the Unknown Regions in an effort to escape the prying eyes of the New Republic. They used information derived from Grand Admiral Thrawn[14] who hailed from the Chiss Ascendancy,[16] and the survey teams and droids that the late Emperor Sheev Palpatine had sent to explore the Unknown Regions. At the request of the dying Counselor to the Empire Gallius Rax, Grand Admiral Rae Sloane, and Commandant Brendol Hux rendezvoused with the Super Star Destroyer Eclipse. Sloane saw an opportunity to rebuild the Empire.[14]

There, isolated from the galaxy, these Imperial hardliners formed the First Order, which was influenced by the principles of the fallen government.[5] With the New Republic now the dominant force in the galaxy, it continuously stressed upholding the values of democracy throughout the stars. In spite of such, however, the New Republic was not without its critics, many of them disgruntled sympathizers of the Old Imperial ways, some of whom were a part of the political structure. Once disagreements between the loyalists and Imperial sympathizers became too severe, the latter group seceded, whereupon they established the First Order along with the former elements of the Imperial military that still inhabited the Unknown Regions. While some in the Galactic Senate applauded the notion, others realized that without New Republic supervision, the Order would return to the draconian ways of its predecessor.[8] Because it descended from the Empire in ideology, the First Order, upon being formed within the Unknown Regions alongside various former Imperial officers, technologists, nobles, and other pro-Imperial supporters, intended to reclaim their legacy.[6]


Supreme Leader Snoke commanded the First Order from the shadows.

With many of the Emperor's servants carrying some of the regime's greatest military secrets to the Unknown Regions, the First Order began a massive militarization effort to produce a technologically superior military to the former Galactic Empire, keenly aware that it lacked the superior numbers of the former state. Numerous shipyards, bases, and research facilities were built on newly explored star systems and colonized worlds as the Order slowly expanded and plotted its eventual return to the galaxy at large. Growing in size and strength, the First Order came under the command of Supreme Leader Snoke, a powerful dark-side user served by his apprentice, Kylo Ren. With Snoke's successful manipulation of Kylo Ren to the dark side of the Force, his apprentice and the Knights of Ren destroyed Luke Skywalker's attempt to restart the Jedi Order, with subsequent purges and hunting down those with Force affinity, much like the previous Inquisitorius of the Old Empire.[5]

Subverting the New RepublicEdit
"The First Order is a remnant born of a war thirty years gone. Yes, they persist, yes, they continue, but by all accounts they do so barely. They are, at best, an ill-organized, poorly equipped, and badly funded group of loyalists who use propaganda and fear to inflate their strength and their importance."
Major Lonno Deso of the Republic Navy[src]
In the years leading up to the destruction of the Hosnian system, the First Order quietly bided its time preparing for its eventual war with the New Republic. To generate funding to refit and rearm the former Imperial fleet, the First Order used a militia group called the Amaxine warriors as proxies to fund the Nikto crime lord Rinnrivin Di's cartel. Seven years prior to the "Napkin Bombing" at the New Republic senatorial complex on Hosnian Prime, the First Order used the Amaxines to inject billions of Credits as start-up capital into Rinnrivin's cartel, turning the hitherto minor cartel into a major crime syndicate. Establishing a mutual relationship with the Amaxines, Rinnrivin embarked on lucrative smuggling and gambling operations with the proceeds being channeled through shadowy corporations and Centrist sources back to the First Order, which used the money to rebuild its fleet.[7]

In addition, the First Order also recruited several Centrist senators like Lady Carise Sindian as clandestine agents who worked to subvert the New Republic from within. Many Centrists, an informal faction in the New Republic's Galactic Senate who favored a stronger central government and military, admired the Old Empire's leaders and practices. Another proxy of the First Order was Arliz Hadrassian, a former TIE fighter pilot who had become the leader of the Amaxine warriors. While Hadrassian saw the Amaxines as the vanguard of the First Order, Lady Carise regarded her as too volatile to manage. Hadrassian in return was impatient with the Centrists for refusing to secede from the Republic.[7]

The First Order's operations were almost exposed when Rinnrivin Di's criminal activities began to exact a devastating toll on the planet Ryloth's offworld trade. In response, the New Republic senators Leia Organa and Ransolm Casterfo embarked on an investigation which uncovered Rinnrivin's links to the Amaxine Warriors. However, the two senators failed to discover the First Order's linkages to the Amaxines and Rinnrivin's cartel. In an attempt to sow chaos, Arliz Hadrassian bombed the New Republic's senatorial complex. This set in motion a chain of events that led to the death of Rinnrivin and the destruction of most of the Amaxine warriors' forces on the planet Sibensko. Hadrassian killed herself after assassinating the New Republic senator Tai-Lin Garr. While most New Republic senators and media believed that the demise of Rinnrivin's cartel and the Amaxines eliminated all threats to the Republic, Leia disagreed and established the Resistance in response to the Republic's complacency.[7]

Following the assassination of Tai-Lin Garr, Lady Carise and her Centrist counterparts began preparing a motion to secede from the New Republic in order to join and support the First Order.[7]

Preparing for warEdit

Starkiller Base, the First Order's headquarters during their military mobilization

For the three decades after Endor, the First Order largely escaped galactic attention, with many in the New Republic Senate believing that it posed no real threat to the galaxy at large. Echoing these sentiments, Chancellor Lanever Villecham argued there was no need for concern as long as the First Order adhered to the dictates of the Galactic Concordance. Despite this, the Order blatantly defied the accords by ushering in the mass mobilization of superior stormtrooper forces, along with violating Republic bans on the sale of weaponry to the First Order and its rules governing capital ships. Testing the resolve of the New Republic, small skirmishes occasionally erupted between the First Order and Republic, all while the Starkiller operation sought a suitable planet for implementation.[5]

With the First Order's growing threat and rapid mobilization for war, prominent members of the Republic voiced concern over this successor state, with the most vocal being Leia Organa. Scoffed at by the Senate at large for being an alarmist and warmonger, Organa used her influence as a prominent member of the former Alliance to recruit many former military officers left forgotten by the Military Disarmament Act passed by the Galactic Senate. Funded by like-minded senators who shared Organa's fears about the First Order, the Resistance came to serve as the opposing force and check to the Order's growing power, sparking the Cold war.[5]

Despite this, members of the Republic Senate were mired in corruption and bureaucracy, with senators such as Erudo Ro-Kiintor colluding with the First Order for promises of wealth and power, with large sums of credits being discretely transferred to him through the Corporate Sector Authority. As a result, the Resistance was forced to work on its own until it could obtain irrefutable evidence of First Order violations of the peace that could be presented to Republic Command. During Operation: Sabre Strike, the Resistance pilot Poe Dameron and General Organa discovered that Senator Erudo had been colluding with the First Order and that he had valuable information about Lor San Tekka, whom Organa believed could lead them to her brother, Luke Skywalker.[3]
 
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Not true, the books cover quite a bit of the stuff with the FO and the NR. I know people keep complaining about leaving all of that for books, but I still think it was a really smart way to go about dealing with the backstory. The thing to keep in mind is that these movies aren't just made for fans, they're made for a general audience too, and the vast, vast majority of those people don't give a shit about the minutia the way we fans do. They aren't going to want the movie to go into every detail about who exactly Snoke is or how the FO came to power, all they want is enough information to follow the story being told, and the movies give us exactly that. Those of us who want to know more have the books, comics, and games to give us the extra details that don't impact the immediate story being told. This is a great way to not bog the movies down in unnecessary exposition, but still give those of us who want those details a way to find them.
Somehow, the OT got away without explaining the Sith, the rise of the Empire, or even what the Senate was.

Yet, the ST sucks because it doesn't explain every single little detail? :shrug:
 
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