Spoilers Star Wars: The Last Jedi - Grading & Discussion

[F. King Daniel]

An Empire Strikes Back review from 1980 (Link) for comparison:


This, to me, was perhaps the most overrated and meretricious film of the year. To put it bluntly (to save space), it was poorly acted (with the exception of Mark Hamill who was the only one who seemed to really live his part and to even show any emotion); flat, shallow, with nothing to get one's teeth into since it was all just a lot of running around, leading nowhere, with no dramatic structure, no central purpose to the film, uninvolving, even downright boring in parts because of the overuse of too many laser-zap battles and chases through space which were not really necessary nor related to anything; it was overdone as far as false dilemnas and false suspense went (so many accidents and disasters piled up on top of one another); the humour was heavy-handed and childish, lacking the impish wit of SW; the music was an equally heavy-handed pastiche of every other Williams score plus rip-offs of Tchaikovsky and others; the script was puerile in the extreme - are these supposed to be sophisticated, mature people talking?- particularly the dialogue between Fisher and Ford, which was embarrassingly inept; the SPFX were definately below standard; never have I seen so many matt lines and such obvious matt paintings; it lacked any plot whatsoever, any meaning- it was more like a trailer for a much longer film or a Super 8 short; it was choppily directed and served only to reduce the heroic epic sweep of SW to pure soap opera hinging on such earth shattering questions as, "is Vader Luke's father?" "Will Han be thawed out?"; what plot it did have was illogical and made no sense with the first film, and even within itself it had holes the size of the Death Star; it had no proper ending- just because it is part of a series, this is no excuse. After all, the PLANET OF THE APES films were all self contained and complete dramatically. The continuity within scenes cinematically, was bad. All in all, it was a shoddy piece of exploitation to try to bring people back for the third film. It was not well made as a film and it nonsense as a piece of SW. The doubts I felt when I heard there was to be a series of sequels have been amply confirmed. ST:TMP may have been boring and nearly as plotless but at least the characters were true to their TV selves. The same cannot be said of TESB. They seem to be a set of different people (except Luke) in an alternate universe, to me.

 

[theenglish]

Well that's a fanzine review, which was the equivalent of us posting in threads like this--only back then it took more effort.

 

[Campe]

Well anyhow, to sum up my reaction to the movie was and still is like this:

This is my opinion, to which everyone is entitled to have and express.

Did you ever actually watch the movie? Or just read your little synopsis and watch your little cell phone clips? I'll agree everyone is entitled to their opinions. But if you don't watch something and just make snap judgments based on half the information? Well, I have no time for such opinions.

 

[TREK_GOD_1]

The Last Jedi--

It's rare to see a franchise jump off of a cliff in such a rapid, wrongheaded way. It would be too easy to list the high number of plot holes, apparent inability to write a story that even feels like it's part of the Star Wars film franchise, but that is the least of TLJ's problems. Clear minds were well aware of a Kathleen Kennedy's blatant disrespect for the series films she worked on under George Lucas, considering the dismissive treatment of the franchise's spirit and original concepts, but its the larger message of this slapped together, Star Wars-In-Name-Only film that makes it worthless: the agenda machine on "full"--non-stop.

What kind of agenda...

As The Force Awakens opened in theaters, innumerable members of the audience believed the relationship between Rey and Finn was supposed to be the growing love story of the Sequel Trilogy, in the way Han & Leia or even Anakin & Padme were. The on-screen chemistry and development between Finn and Rey was so natural, that it was often credited as the best plot-line or anything else of TFA. While the obvious played out on screens, a loud group of "fans" on the streets, in social media and elsewhere launched what amounted to a fullisade of "Never Rey+Finn" statements/posts, claiming everything from Finn merely being "A friend", to seeing some (nonexistent) romantic connection between Rey and Kylo Ren, to the ever code-worded "Finn is wrong for her".

This anti Rey+Finn cry is born from a very real and sizable part of sci-fi/fantasy fandom, many claiming or full on campaigning for any kind of social politics being grafted to every production, yet the second any film or TV series either explores or even suggests interracial romance--especially when the female is white and the male is black--an enormous outcry fills the general conversation / informs the perception of a production, with many, self-described "open-armed", "everything is fine" liberals (from fans to those who run or work for media channels, blogs, etc.) revealing the same negative reaction, thinly veiled by the "he's just wrong for her" crying. A similarly negative reaction / fight was seen in the case of TV's Supergirl, where endless numbers of fans either fell back to the "he's just wrong for her" argument, or made openly racist statements about the James Olsen character (and/or actor Mehcad Brooks) with "why does it have to be him??", so they were elated when their inverted prayers were answered in season two of the series.

Its an old reaction to the black male/white female in media issue, but it takes on Brobdingnagian proportions when the hostility to such relationships comes from those selling themselves as the most tolerant, open-minded people at the top of the mountain--the ideologically liberal behind the camera, and numbers of their audience. It is clear that Kathleen Kennedy and others involved in the production of this Star Wars sequel trilogy were (ultimately) willing to only go so far with the sequel series' most natural, pointed relationship, which was evident in The Last Jedi. Knowing the relationship had to be addressed--if only to get it out of the way of the real end-game waiting around the corner--episode 8...

• Rey tells Chewbacca if he sees Finn before she does, tell him...only for Chewbacca finishing what seemed to have been a clear as day sentiment. Of course, the traditionally subtitle translation-free Chewbacca (convenient) had the "honor" of finishing Rey's thought, but it would remain hidden (or so the producers thought) as if playing a childish game of "if it's not heard, it didn't happen ".
• Further, Finn's first thought coming out of recovery was not about himself, but Rey, because she means everything to him; he's so dedicated to her that he's willing to leave the Resistance with homing device so Rey would not return to what he believed to be the eventual slaughter of the Resistance ships. Fight for freedom be damned, but that illustrated just how much she means to him, which, if Finn was played by someone less...brown...the end result would have been a sweeping build toward a romance during the darkest of times...the ESB parallel.

Instead of continuing to build on all that was established in TFA and the LJ points above, in comes the producer approved wrench hurled into the works...in the form of Rose, an aggressively shoehorned character filled with Hollywood Limousine Liberal talking points (the infantile commentary during the over the top casino sequence), who had no romantic chemistry with Finn, and certainly did not ever hint at a romantic interest. Worst of all, Finn--the same Finn willing to abandon the hunted Resistance to protect/reunite with Rey--suddenly (in the last act) seems to have some interest in Rose after her peck and out of nowhere, heartless admission of "love". That's called the "separate Finn from Rey with absolutely unbelievable plotting served up on a pile of bullshit" maneuver.

The clear as day cherry (or horsefly, considering what this was built on) on top is the quickie Poe-meets-Rey scene, as if there's any connection between them suggesting a future romance. Message received: there is no way the most charismatic characters with honest romantic potential will ever fulfill that connection because a part of the liberal entertainment business--and a loud part of its audience--resent the idea of a black male romantically linked with a white woman. For all of the social justice campaigning in the Star Wars sequels (like Poe and Finn are so easily shocked/knocked around and treated like idiots), someone should remind the producers to evolve while they're telling everyone else to do the same.

The Last Jedi is the most controversial Star Wars movie to date--for a sea of reasons regarding quality, intent, its lack of continuity with the artistic visiting of the franchise creator, etc., but its greatest failing is the one that appeared to be part of its greatest agenda.

I'm not hopeful that episode 9 will set right what so terribly wrong about this sequel series.

 

[Trekkin]

Well anyhow, to sum up my reaction to the movie was and still is like this:

This is my opinion, to which everyone is entitled to have and express.

So have you actually seen it yet? Or are you still trying to convince us that reddit spoilers are basically the same thing?

Also: comparing yourself to a man who is completely irrational, accidentally killed hundreds due to bad judgement, and is explicitly noted to have all his reasoning facilities fried, is an...interesting choice. But hey, you’re certainly ‘entitled’ to do it.

The Last Jedi--

It's rare to see a franchise jump off of a cliff in such a rapid, wrongheaded way. It would be too easy to list the high number of plot holes, apparent inability to write a story that even feels like it's part of the Star Wars film franchise, but that is the least of TLJ's problems. Clear minds were well aware of a Kathleen Kennedy's blatant disrespect for the series films she worked on under George Lucas, considering the dismissive treatment of the franchise's spirit and original concepts, but its the larger message of this slapped together, Star Wars-In-Name-Only film that makes it worthless: the agenda machine on "full"--non-stop.

What kind of agenda...

As The Force Awakens opened in theaters, innumerable members of the audience believed the relationship between Rey and Finn was supposed to be the growing love story of the Sequel Trilogy, in the way Han & Leia or even Anakin & Padme were. The on-screen chemistry and development between Finn and Rey was so natural, that it was often credited as the best plot-line or anything else of TFA. While the obvious played out on screens, a loud group of "fans" on the streets, in social media and elsewhere launched what amounted to a fullisade of "Never Rey+Finn" statements/posts, claiming everything from Finn merely being "A friend", to seeing some (nonexistent) romantic connection between Rey and Kylo Ren, to the ever code-worded "Finn is wrong for her".

This anti Rey+Finn cry is born from a very real and sizable part of sci-fi/fantasy fandom, many claiming or full on campaigning for any kind of social politics being grafted to every production, yet the second any film or TV series either explores or even suggests interracial romance--especially when the female is white and the male is black--an enormous outcry fills the general conversation / informs the perception of a production, with many, self-described "open-armed", "everything is fine" liberals (from fans to those who run or work for media channels, blogs, etc.) revealing the same negative reaction, thinly veiled by the "he's just wrong for her" crying. A similarly negative reaction / fight was seen in the case of TV's Supergirl, where endless numbers of fans either fell back to the "he's just wrong for her" argument, or made openly racist statements about the James Olsen character (and/or actor Mehcad Brooks) with "why does it have to be him??", so they were elated when their inverted prayers were answered in season two of the series.

Its an old reaction to the black male/white female in media issue, but it takes on Brobdingnagian proportions when the hostility to such relationships comes from those selling themselves as the most tolerant, open-minded people at the top of the mountain--the ideologically liberal behind the camera, and numbers of their audience. It is clear that Kathleen Kennedy and others involved in the production of this Star Wars sequel trilogy were (ultimately) willing to only go so far with the sequel series' most natural, pointed relationship, which was evident in The Last Jedi. Knowing the relationship had to be addressed--if only to get it out of the way of the real end-game waiting around the corner--episode 8...

• Rey tells Chewbacca if he sees Finn before she does, tell him...only for Chewbacca finishing what seemed to have been a clear as day sentiment. Of course, the traditionally subtitle translation-free Chewbacca (convenient) had the "honor" of finishing Rey's thought, but it would remain hidden (or so the producers thought) as if playing a childish game of "if it's not heard, it didn't happen ".
• Further, Finn's first thought coming out of recovery was not about himself, but Rey, because she means everything to him; he's so dedicated to her that he's willing to leave the Resistance with homing device so Rey would not return to what he believed to be the eventual slaughter of the Resistance ships. Fight for freedom be damned, but that illustrated just how much she means to him, which, if Finn was played by someone less...brown...the end result would have been a sweeping build toward a romance during the darkest of times...the ESB parallel.

Instead of continuing to build on all that was established in TFA and the LJ points above, in comes the producer approved wrench hurled into the works...in the form of Rose, an aggressively shoehorned character filled with Hollywood Limousine Liberal talking points (the infantile commentary during the over the top casino sequence), who had no romantic chemistry with Finn, and certainly did not ever hint at a romantic interest. Worst of all, Finn--the same Finn willing to abandon the hunted Resistance to protect/reunite with Rey--suddenly (in the last act) seems to have some interest in Rose after her peck and out of nowhere, heartless admission of "love". That's called the "separate Finn from Rey with absolutely unbelievable plotting served up on a pile of bullshit" maneuver.

The clear as day cherry (or horsefly, considering what this was built on) on top is the quickie Poe-meets-Rey scene, as if there's any connection between them suggesting a future romance. Message received: there is no way the most charismatic characters with honest romantic potential will ever fulfill that connection because a part of the liberal entertainment business--and a loud part of its audience--resent the idea of a black male romantically linked with a white woman. For all of the social justice campaigning in the Star Wars sequels (like Poe and Finn are so easily shocked/knocked around and treated like idiots), someone should remind the producers to evolve while they're telling everyone else to do the same.

The Last Jedi is the most controversial Star Wars movie to date--for a sea of reasons regarding quality, intent, its lack of continuity with the artistic visiting of the franchise creator, etc., but its greatest failing is the one that appeared to be part of its greatest agenda.

I'm not hopeful that episode 9 will set right what so terribly wrong about this sequel series.

Jesus Titty Fucking Christ.

That specific screed aside, there’s something I’ve been wondering about after reading a few more ’excited’ reviews (aka. The idiots on Facebook bragging about botting the RT audience score.)

When did being ‘anti-slavery,’ ‘anti-murder,’ and ‘anti-black market arms dealing’ become a ‘liberal’ things?

 

[TREK_GOD_1]

Jesus Titty Fucking Christ.

How offensive some can be.

 

[Trekkin]

I have tits, Fucking them is fine, so long as it’s actually you know...consented to.

What have you got against a Middle Eastern man titty fucking, Trek_God? After that little speech about racial relations, don’t tell me you’ve been also been a ‘limousine liberal’ then entire time!

 

[DarKush]

TREK_GOD-1

Thank you for this well-written and well-thought piece. I knew though from TFA that they wouldn't let Finn and Rey get together because of that unease many in society have with black male/white female romantic/sexual relationships. Curiously, there isn't the same, or at least at the same level, of trepidation or queasiness when it comes to depicting black women and white men in relationships. This is something quite frequent in mass entertainment I’ve seen. If there are black male/white female relationships (ex. Diggle and Lyla on Arrow) they are rarely, if ever shown. They are afterthoughts that the shows are not dwelling on and they are likely not going to be the central relationships of any show. They are so far into the background that it’s almost nonexistent. And we rarely see them in romantic and sexual relationships, as I feel there is an uneasiness and/or fear over black sexuality, especially black male sexuality.

I thought they made Finn too comical in TFA, too bumbling, fearful, and in need of rescue to appeal to an Alpha like Rey. Also making him a janitor, and not something badass that might make him more appealing in her eyes. I guess Hollywood really needed to show one more black domestic.

Further, his character had a pathetic puppy dog kind of devotion to her. But despite all that Daisy Ridley and John Boyega have really good chemistry, and try as the films might to place them elsewhere and with other people (Finn with Rose and Rey with either Kylo Ren or Poe) that chemistry still shines through.

While Finn has always been more into Rey than she has for him, and her first mention of Finn in TLJ felt like Johnson had suddenly remembered she cared for him too, the subsequent asking about Finn and especially their hug had feeling to it, though once again, more from Finn than Rey. What was interesting though was how Rey was looking at Finn as he was checking in on the injured Rose. I couldn’t read Rey’s expression.

I knew from when I first heard about Rose that they were going to place her with Finn to move him away from Rey. And that’s just what TLJ did, but in such an awkward way that didn’t sell the incipient relationship well at all. She starts out gushing over Finn, then loses faith in him and stuns him, and vacillates between bossing him around and crushing on him. I even thought her saving him on Crait was a selfish act that didn’t allow his arc to be completed. On Crait he had finally shed his fear of the First Order and was ready to die for something, a cause, perhaps for the first time in his life. But Rose had to interrupt that. She couldn’t allow that. Granted TLJ at least supplied a motivation for her actions, with the death of her sister earlier in the film, but it felt wrong to me to not allow Finn to complete his journey, even though Rose’s action fit right in line with Johnson’s propensity in this film to defy expectations.

Now Rose is into Finn more than he’s into her. TLJ didn’t excise Finn’s Rey fixation but it dampened it a lot and I got a feeling that it will ice it completely in Episode IX, as they likely grow the Finn/Rose relationship and Finn and Rey might even have a moment when they realize it’s better to just be friends.

 

[Turtletrekker]

I didn't have any problems with Finn and Poe failing, even failing in such a spectacular fashion as they did. Jean-Luc Picard once said that "It's possible to do everything right and still lose." My problem is that Finn and Poe failed so incompetently. So ineptly. I wouldn't trust either of these guys to carry out a plan to go to 7-11 to buy beer.

 

[Trekkin]

Well, Poe was almost immediately demoted. Apparently, neither would anyone else.

That’s why the Admiral wouldn’t tell him her plan. She thought if he tried to play any part at all, he’d fuck it up for everyone. Presumably by exploding something.

 

[Set Harth]

apparent inability to write a story that even feels like it's part of the Star Wars film franchise

A story that (in various ways) feels like it's based on a TESB template doesn't feel like it's part of the Star Wars film franchise?

And in dialogue, both in A New Hope and Revenge of the Sith it is implied that this is a power only give to the good side.

In ROTS, the dialogue you're probably thinking of was from a scene that didn't make it into the film.

 

[Tosk]

Well, Poe was almost immediately demoted. Apparently, neither would anyone else.

That’s why the Admiral wouldn’t tell him her plan. She thought if he tried to play any part at all, he’d fuck it up for everyone. Presumably by exploding something.

My problem is that there is no real reason to withhold the plan from anyone. (Other than plot machinations.) The plan involves everyone on board, were they just not going to tell people what was going on until the last possible second? Did the pilots of the destroyed ships know what they were dying for? Did the people that had to check the transports know? Did the pilots left on board know? To get the plot to that point, all we've seen is some people standing around not doing anything. (Which makes sense, that seems to be their M.O. in this movie.)

Or was it just Poe who wasn't told anything?

A story that (in various ways) feels like it's based on a TESB template doesn't feel like it's part of the Star Wars film franchise?

Big chunk of ROTJ in there too.

 

[davejames]

It's so weird to me to see people be so incredibly fired up and outraged over this movie, when I walked out just feeling kinda... underwhelmed by the whole thing. As clunky as some of the plotting was, or as much as the movie seemed to drag at times, I thought most of the Luke, Rey and Kylo scenes were executed really damn well, which makes it hard for me to dismiss the entire movie as a complete mess or disaster like others here.

Fortunately that initial frustration with the movie has mostly faded by this point, and I'm now curious and looking forward to see it a second time this weekend, to see if my issues with the pacing or plotting might be smoothed over a bit. It's doubtful it'll ever grow on me as much as TFA has, but hopefully I'll still be able to enjoy it a lot more than I did.

 

[Trekkin]

My problem is that there is no real reason to withhold the plan from anyone. (Other than plot machinations.) The plan involves everyone on board, were they just not going to tell people what was going on until the last possible second? Did the pilots of the destroyed ships know what they were dying for? Did the people that had to check the transports know? Did the pilots left on board know? To get the plot to that point, all we've seen is some people standing around not doing anything. (Which makes sense, that seems to be their M.O. in this movie.)

Or was it just Poe who wasn't told anything?

The officers apparently did know, as did the...enlisted? staff involved in actually preparing for evacuation. If Rose had stuck around for longer than five minutes into the Admirals command, she probably would have found out soon enough.

Poe’s problem was that when he did find out and have it explained, he immediately jumped the gun and tried to commit mutiny. So he got brigged, mutinied again, then tasered again. He didn’t exactly leave much time (or give anyone the inclination) to sit him down and have a nice talk.

Throw in him disparaging Dern within half a minute of her introduction (before she’d actually had time to do anything other than be a war hero) - and shed already been seen calmly addressing the concerns he’d actually raised with her - and from an in-universe perspective he’d look like an unsavoury mix of paranoid and jealous.

I also may be slightly biased, because I do have family in the forces. Officers aren’t usually expected to explain their motives to their 100+ crews. Especially when they’re the freaking Admiral, and it’s been less than an hour since the twit harassing them was disciplined for ignoring orders.

And now I’m getting flashbacks to ‘Was Riker right about Jellico?’

 

[Tosk]

Poe’s problem was that as soon as he did find out and have it explained, he immediately jumped the gun and tried to commit mutiny.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but that wasn't the whole plan he heard, was it? Just the thing about transports, not the rest. I can understand chain of command and all that, but why would you give people only the part of the plan that sounds like suicide and leave out the part where it's actually maybe a good idea?

 

[Set Harth]

But more importantly: We were never talking about importance of characters in ‘Force’ terms (because why the hell would we be.)

Because the Force is presumed to have some importance in SW? Why would we not be? Why should we really care about the bloodline at all, if not for its Force potential? How would a distant Shmi relative be fundamentally more interesting or important than any other random?

It’s almost like the movie had a point in criticising the notion of pure/important/destined ‘bloodlines’ as a load of crap.

People see what they want to see, apparently. The movie called the Skywalker blood "mighty" and "something truly special" when it took the occasional break from promoting your agenda.

The alternatives are the immaculate conception via magic microbes

At the behest of the Force, that is.

or the endless wankery provided by the EU.

If you're talking about creation by the Sith here, that option was in no way 'provided' by the EU. It was implied as a possibility by ROTS itself, which is why Lucas' comments to Rolling Stone on the subject chronologically predated any relevant EU content that I know of ( which could hardly be described as 'endless' ).

And whilst I dont hold any animosity towards the him, Lucas ain’t running this show anymore.

"Anakin's father was just some deadbeat" is still lame no matter who is in charge, and it messes with Shmi's characterization. The clear intent of the film should count for something.

Plus, he himself set the ‘only movie content is binding’ rule.

Not really, that's primarily fan ideology. And for whatever it's worth the current position of the franchise is that everything released since the changeover is 'binding', but you'll find that doesn't matter to some people. History seems to repeat itself.

 

[Makarov]

I enjoyed this movie quite a bit. My criticisms: They play it too safe by not having Ren / Kylo team up and move the series in new direction. Rose has an awful line about saving loved ones instead of fighting hated people. Rey improves with her parent reveal (interesting direction imo) but she's still a lame character. In general though I like it a lot, I actually think the casino part and Finn's part are pretty important.

 

[EnsignRicky]

That's an interesting point from somewhere above. Even with all pretense of romance removed, it can't be overstated how much Rey and Finn's interactions together really made the last film work.
Of course Johnson would feel it wise to limit that kind of thing to seven seconds in an already bloated two and a half hour popcorn flick. We needed more Maz.

 

[Skywalker]

This movie felt very disjointed to me. I absolutely loved everything about the Rey/Luke/Ben half of the story, but I found the Finn/Poe/Leia half severely lacking. I did really like elements of the latter, such as Benicio del Toro's performance, the social commentary on Canto Bight, and the revelation that some of the same plutocrats who've been funding the First Order war machine have also been supplying the Resistance. And Admiral Holdo's lightspeed kamikaze was breathtaking, easily one of the most memorable scenes in the entire franchise.

But just about everything else relating to that storyline fell flat for me. Yes, I understand the point was that Finn and Poe screwed up, but that doesn't change the fact that if Holdo had been more forthcoming with what she (and Leia) had planned, those two never would have come up with such a cockamamie plan. Honestly, it reminded me of Lost, where so many problems were caused by characters simply not communicating with each other for no logical reason in order to manufacture drama.

The idea that the First Order, which somehow now dominates the galaxy less than a day after blowing up the Republic capital (which was apparently the entirety of the Republic, because that makes sense), would just spend hours following the Resistance fleet at sublight instead of calling in any of their other ships to jump in and cut off the Resistance (or, you know, jump to lightspeed themselves and get ahead of their prey) makes zero sense.

Oh well. At least I'll always have the other half of the movie, because that was some damn good Star Wars.

 

[Lakenheath 72]

According to the ancillary material, the First Order assigned thirty star destroyers to the task of hunting and killing the Resistance.

There are things which do not work in this movie. I attribute this to the fact that the writers have not been in the military nor consulted people who have. Furthermore, they are in a long line of sci-fi writers who do not understand how big space truly is.

On my third viewing, I noticed for the first time the stance of the young stable boy in the end. He is holding his broom like a light saber. This is a strong indication that he might become a Jedi later in life.

On the Finn/Rose relationship, I was browsing the Art of The Last Jedi. Sometime in the development of the story, Rose was a blonde haired white woman. She got changed to an Asian.